I didn't expect for this to be something I'd ever have to post about on MR, let alone one of my very first, but I have something important to say and I'd appreciate if everyone could take heed.

When in character, be it in the Streets or Business District forums, can we please exercise a little bit of caution over subject matter? By this, I mean material which - however remote the chances may be - may offend another player. I won't go into details, but I myself came across a post tonight which upset me enormously. I've contacted the person in question to ask that it be removed and explained the reasons behind my request as diplomatically as I could, but really I'd have preferred if I hadn't come across the post at all, especially when I come onto MR as a form of light relief from real life issues.

To offer some context, what I'm talking about here centres around disability and physical abnormalities. Now, I'm the first to appreciate that not everyone is familiar with this world, and very few people would actually set out to cause offence by making light of situations involving these conditions, but a little bit of common sense never, ever goes amiss - especially when you're interacting with large numbers of people from around the world on a regular basis.

All I'm asking is that we apply a tiny bit of extra thought when speaking in character and especially out of character. You don't know everyone's circumstances on here, and some of you have no idea how painful it is to come across something which basically takes the piss out of something you struggle to deal with every single day of your life.

I think that just about covers it.

Thanks.

LD

This is not the first time this issue has been raised and I'm sure it will not be the last.

With that said.. I could be totally way off base here, but last I checked this game is meant to take place in the... 30s? I think that's what it was.. and I don't believe back then they had the political correctness that we now have. So even though some may be offended by it, there comes a point where you need to separate OOC from IC. Words like "retard", "midget", "freak" and the out-casting of the out of the norm was fairly prevalent. If you start asking people to stop doing something that is IC and related to that time period you are taking away from being true role playing.

I understand being upset about seeing words that may offend you due to your situation IRL.. but there really comes a point when it's best to just walk away. Nobody is forcing you to read whatever it is that bothered you. There are multiple people that play MafiaReturns (myself included) that is related to or knows somebody with some kind of illness or disability.. but if we had everybody asking for something to be removed because it offends them, we'd be left with very little.

We live in a world now where you can't do anything without stepping on somebody's toes.. but we are RPing people in the 30s mafia.. I'm pretty sure they stepped on a lot of toes and offended a lot of people.

Just my late night, lack of sleep opinion on it.

I can see where you're coming from - really, I can. But, in many ways this game does not hold ultimate realism paramount; there are boundaries in place and it just so happens that in my opinion, those boundaries are skewed. Take this for example, from the Site Rules:

8. No pornographic, racist, or otherwise discriminatory threads or posts in public forums.

Fair enough, its an ambiguous phrase, doesn't really clarify what is considered to be discriminatory - but if someone feels that they have been discriminated against, then it is entirely their prerogative to speak up and (as is common advice on here) 'do something about it.' I'm well aware that there are terms used that could be deemed offensive, but for the most part those are very general terms that are not aimed at a very specific group of people. The word that I've got a problem with does refer directly to a specific group of people, and for this reason, it is discriminatory.

I'm not suggesting that admin go around deleting posts left, right and centre just because someone has a bit of a yap about it. I'm suggesting that people are a little bit more considerate in the first place, thus avoiding any extra burden on the admins and furthermore, avoiding potential rifts with other members. Very specific posts made in bad taste should be removed. Regardless of how prevalent social ostracism was in the 1920s/1930s, there are certain things which simply shouldn't be allowed. We're not writing a novel here - we're role playing, and this particular issue does not affect the overall prowess of any member in game.

Getting back to realism, how about the fact that there are quite a few female mafiosi on here? Is that in line with the rules of social engagement circa 1920/1930? Definitely not. You'll find that there were considerably few prominent women within Mafia ranks at this time, particularly given that the feminist movement was more concerned with suffrage than underground crime families. But, we accept that females can play this game because otherwise, it would be sexual discrimination - based on today's values.

So, I fail to see how other forms of discrimination can be justified simply because we're roleplaying in a game set in this era.

Even a simple change of the terminology used in the post that offended me would have been acceptable; if that were the case, I'd have been happy to overlook it. As it happens, the terminology was offensive, and therefore I chose to speak up, as is my right as a regular playing member.

First of all, "realism" is a poorly-argued point on any level. There are players that don't participate in RP and treat this entirely as a game, and those that refuse to play it in any other way than as a "mafioso". Therefore, casting "realism" and "RP" into the matter will only spur grey-area banter where each of you makes good points about where this site is lacking; but never actually accomplish anything.

As to the rule-breaking; we aren't supposed to have obscene, sexual, or offensive character names, but we have folks like "Fuckerish" and others that play on words for their account's name. In that way, the rule is subsided because no one directly means to offend anyone. Also, those under 18 aren't supposed to play the game, according to the rules, but they are allowed to play anyways. This is a very grey-area game (fitting, with the color scheme), and it's difficult to enforce rules that wouldn't apply to '30s mafiosos. You have to admit that there was racism and sexism in the 30s. Such interests wouldn't be tolerated here on a game-basis, regardless of how "realistic" it is.

I honestly don't know the post or thread in question, but this topic isn't something enforceable. Being offended is subjective, and has everything to do with you as an individual, a member of a group, your religious backgrounds, etc. You can't really make a rule about being "offensive", because it can be interpreted differently each case. However, this doesn't excuse saying hurtful things, and if the post was meant to deliberately demean or disrespect someone for a disability or something along those lines, it shouldn't be tolerated, and it's a good thing you spoke up.

There are quite a few times I see things which I find offensive. If it's in OOC, IRC or any other sort of 'out of character' arena, I'll probably have something to say about it. However, if it occurs in an 'in character' place - whether that's mobmail, the streets, business districts or even in an IC irc channel, I think to myself 'would I be offended if I read this in a book, or saw it in a movie?'

That's how you have to see the streets in my opinion. As soon as we're in an IC forum, it's not me talking, it's my character. I'm not saying that it is therefore acceptable to hide behind a 'character' to get away with flagrant racism or abuse. However, if you read the personal account of any mobster who's sold his story, it's quite clear what the general stance is on gays, the disabled, those of different religions and those with a background other than Italian. In fact, from reading many contemporary novels (including the works of Puzo) you'll find the authors echoing these sentiments in an effort to create more realisim to their work.

Yes, I think there's a line, but it isn't static; you have to judge it on a case by case basis - from the person who is outright trying to cause upset and offense to the person who's genuinely interested in creating a realistic and true to life piece of writing.

Time and time and time and time again. Whenever I come across anyone using terms like "retard" I sigh. There is no need, sure, people in the 30s might have used such terms. Do we need to, though? Does it really add much more realism? I seem to manage Ok without calling people these terms or using them in the sense i've saw others do.

I applaud you for taking the time to ask that people think twice.

Guys, thanks for contributing so coherently - I appreciate that immensely.

Firstly, I will clarify that having slept on it, I responded to the person in question and admitted that actually, I had no right to ask that anything be removed. I apologised accordingly as I did make that request in angry haste. It is easier, for the sake of just getting on with the game, to turn a blind eye to certain things and indeed avoid them if you know in advance that you may be offended - particularly when you also know ( as I acknowledged to the person) that their post wasn't deliberately intended as malicious.

However, I still stand by my statement that we should exercise a little more consideration, as well as the fact that there are so many grey areas and inconsistencies. The latter is unavoidable, sadly, but it is for that reason that I argued against this concept of how important realism is within the game. To me, that argument is utterly redundant, as others here have agreed. I do understand (and even encourage) how essential Mafiosi culture is here; its an intrinsic part of roleplay - but let's just bear in mind that the use of any derogatory terms lends no weight to how authentic a character is, regardless of how 'acceptable' such things may have been back in the era.

As I pointed out, I wasn't asking that anything be enforced as such - nobody wants to listen to someone take the moral high ground and batter everyone around the head with it -  merely that we try to weave a little more respect into our public communications within MR.

Now, with that, I'm off to dig out some Aretha Franklin and burn all my bras.

It seems my post has caused some people to feel offended. So let me just clarify, I'm not supporting the use of these terms. I do agree we could do without using them and I do think other words could be used in their place..

All I was saying is that in the time period this game is set.. there are terms that are not acceptable now that were back then...

I applaud her decision on standing up for what she believes, don't get me wrong there. I cringe every time I see people use certain words as a way to insult somebody.

So again.. *I*, the player behind Aizlynn, do not feel these terms should be freely tossed about as they are... and that's all I be saying on the subject for now.

and that's all I'll be saying on the subject for now on.*

I swear my fingers refuse to work correctly with my brain half the time :/

No matter what you do, you can't do what's in the best interest of everyone. Just flat out impossible. If people tried not to offend anyone, nothing would ever get done.

Certain things will always cut certain people deeper. Unavoidable half the time.

True words, JohnSmith. True words.

Come and burn a bra with me.

True words, JohnSmith. True words.

Come and burn a bra with me.