I'm a long time casual player. I started in .org when I was just a kid and have played here on and off over the years. Nothing impressive or worthy of lore or memory. I've been around enough to see how the games changed over time though. I'm not here to say that changes are evil or that the game was better "in the good ol days". I'm merely wondering why everyone who plays currently is clearly okay with the game being pay to win. Just look at what space did - basically didn't even have an account and used money to kill a top member of the community. The perks you only get when making purchases. Earning +4 hustle points per day from playing but getting hundreds or thousands when making purchases. 

Honestly, these are just surface level instances of p2w that some of you might shoot down quickly in defense of your lifes most valuable outcome. I understand why those of you who treat this game as an extension of your life will feel that way. To everyone else, I just ask: Why? Why do give the game your money when someone else can just give more and make your contribution near worthless? If you aren't putting in money, why are you giving the game your time? 

I'm not asking these questions to defame or admonish. I'm genuinely curious. I'll even start. I most recently played in LV as BigEasy. The reason I played the game again was nostalgia. I hadn't played in a multiple years and was just curious the state of the game and to connect with people whom I hadn't spoken to in years. After playing for a couple months and getting a grasp of just how many people don't play the game anymore and why it was clear to me, this game isn't for me anymore. Which is totally fine. I appreciate those who take the time to read and share their opinions. Have a great day and I look forward to hearing from you. Cheers. 

Well, i always had a problem with not being able to buy anything because of my currency (and also for not being able to send my unused promo codes to someone who would put them to good use), but this isnt really anyone's fault but mine, for being brazilian xD

Although, i don't agree with you. I think everyone have the same chances of building, paying or not. Of course, people who get thousands of hustles might be able to build at a faster pace and put high ammounts of $ on the hitlist, but it doesn't change much if you build hard and have connections (as this game is mostly politics and strategy). Most of spacey's hitlists were bought because of a team/aliance effort.

Also, congratulations and cheers for being so polite, the world would be better with more polite people.

As someone who hasn't bought credits in years, I find this argument a bit hard to make. I do agree that MR credits has a great influence and the more credits you can have the easier things will be for you, but I disagree that you have to pay to win. 

Just sitting around on IRC you can collect free money all day. If you post and get onto the VIP listings (Very, very easy to accomplish) you can collect free credits all day. Participating in any of the free events in game, or on IRC can also net you many free credits. 

I also have to agree with Gillian, that making solid connections with other people is a great way to build yourself, and your friends up. There are advantages for being around awhile and playing the game that I think you overlook by just declaring the game as win. 

Thats true, there is absolutely an aspect of politics. Allegiances will also get you far. At the end of the day a 100 player allegiance who makes no monetary contributions will lose to 20 players who do. I suspect they will lose to them over the coarse of a 90-120 day period. I suspect around 120 days is when a player who doesn't pay to win will catch up on gun skill. The paying player will get a cap gun in like 60 days maybe faster if they are hardcore and even faster if they no life it. But we'll say 60 days. So the killing aspect of the game will take a free to play player 1.5x-2x longer if they are spending the money they earn on credits. IF they are ggoing completely f2p and not using credits at all...well I honestly don't know how long that will take. I suspect longer but lets say they can build a cap gun using 0 credits in 120 days. Thats 2x the time just for the gun building aspect. 

Hustle points and stat training - the f2p player doesn't stand a chance. At +4 points a day maxing one stat that they already have 100 in - so to get to 101 is like 90 points? Thats 23 days just for that +1. To do that for every stat...well they are likely never going to be able to get enough points to do so. 

Bodyguards? call it 300mil to max bg's to make it easy. No shot a f2p player is ever earning that much money. Maybe around 200-250 days? Maybe. But if they are buying credits at all - no shot. 

So - in all likelihood the amount of days it will take a free to play player to max their account to be competitive with a p2w player is likely somewhere in the range of 150-200 days. In that time the p2w player has maxed their account, helped a friend max their account, and is working on yet another friend maxing theirs. 

Additionally the lounge credits are also p2w you just dont realize you are the product thats being advertised and sold. The credits given out via lounge and competitions are a marketing expense for the game. They are a write off basically. It creates an environment where having X amount of credits is seen as the norm and artificially ellivates the "cost of living" for your average account. Its more or less a way to create a false economy that gives paying customers the mindset that if everyone else has x amount of credits they must be paying money as well. Its the "normal" thing to do. Its just ggood business honestly. 

Lounge is filled with free kills all day long. I think anyone shooting would say that maxing now is easier than it ever has been because of all the RATs and other freebies. Just looking at the RAT stats you can see how many free kills are going around: https://mafiareturns.com/stats/top_rat.php

Currently at the time of this post someone has had 81 free kills in the last 7 days just from being on IRC. 

I don't think that maxing your stats with hustle points is all that important, 103 defense is pretty spicy though. But besides the small benefit, or if you're wasting it on wack increases. Many of the events that happen also reward people with hustle points so, to me, this seems like it's an advantage for being around and playing the game. 

I can't speak for everyone, but in most situations where I am needing IWP bodyguards my city is helping foot the bill for them. This has been my experience most times and I think it is very common for people to pay for each other's BGs especially if you're putting in work for the city/crew. 

And you're probably right about it taking longer being free to play. I agreed with that before. Having credits makes the game easier and faster, but you can build up your wealth just by sitting around and playing the game. Paying is a shortcut, as it is in most games, but it is not required by any means. 

You make great points ginger. I can understand why you feel that way but from where I stand most of the things you say are supporting the fact that it is pay to gain advantage which is p2w to some but clearly not to all. Thank you for sharing your opinions on the matter. You've changed my mind, pay to win isn't exactly accurate. I'll concede that it is pay to gain advantage.

To everyone else, I just ask: Why? Why do give the game your money when someone else can just give more and make your contribution near worthless?

I don't give a shit about the game - I'm pretty open about that. But I do give a shit about this place existing. This is my cheers. This is where I come when life isn't great and I need to be reminded I'm better than everyone that  to have some not-so-serious times with some people I can trust and have for years. This is where my friends are (Because I'm pathetic and have none, but that's besides the point) and I love them, mostly. Some I just tolerate. Shut up. 

Plus, giving the game my money means that maybe a few pennies will go towards an Amatos Pizza for my future wife. And for that alone, I say, Wow when did giphy links get so fucking long?

Plus if #main didn't exist I might be forced to speak to people over whatsapp again and I am NOT DOING THAT AGAIN. 

I completely understand that Georgette. I made contact with a couple people I had previously lost contact with which wouldn't be possible without this place. Nothing pathetic or too be looked down at about that at all. Anything judging anyone else for that likely has a fucking miserable life. 

Imo: Pay 2 win:

Can you spend money to gain an advantage?

Yes, in this game, if you don't spend money you will not be at the same level as the top of the board.  If you don't believe that, you've just not seen how much some of the people have on this game.

Can you play without paying? I suppose.  But you can also play Genshin or any other gacha F2P, and it's still P2W.  But if someone decides to come drop a bunch of money, they will be stronger and better than you much faster.

I can't speak for everyone, but in most situations where I am needing IWP bodyguards my city is helping foot the bill for them. This has been my experience most times and I think it is very common for people to pay for each other's BGs especially if you're putting in work for the city/crew. 

Where do you think the money for those BGs came from?

Yeah, it isn't p2w.  Ive had thousands of credits and never been close to winning

Yeah most rich accounts are just known for being rich. I don't know a single credit baron whose ever been the face of an era. So don't feel so bad, TaptGutt. Even if paying does give you an advantage, the no lifers close that gap pretty quickly. 40 days for a cap hitter is crazy.

Where do you think the money for those BGs came from?

Lottowinner I paid for them myself, not using credits bought with real money. 

Lottowinner I paid for them myself, not using credits bought with real money. 

That was in response to cities helping pay for BGs.  The cost of BGing up CLs/hands/shooters is impossible (imo) without spending cash.  I was just countering Ginger's point of a city helping.  Because effectively, that city's leaders have paid to have a strong city, which may mean supporting F2P players. 

Also, still stating that even if you can be F2P, doesn't make it not P2W.

You can win at MR? 

For me it breaks down in to different areas. 

Is the game P2W?

Partly yes, if you can bg up quicker, mia quicker, for a bigger gun in a short time, hell yeah, it helps.

Is money on it's own enough?

No, time and organisation helps which also means numbers as chase the rogue spawns, organize people to find targets etc.

Is building a gun though and getting the bg's enough?

Unless you got a few of your on the P2W spectrum, your still screwed no matter what  you spend, as the fact is no take over is done by one person on their own now.   A leader dies, everyone jumps on the pro wagon leader wise, and happily lets their memebrs die as part of the sacrifice of prioritizing who gets pro'd first, if the leader is competent enough to even get members pro.    Fact is a few big guns, with no life, can tear apart multiple families if launched especially in the quiet hours, so can kill leaders without word getting out.

Why doesn't it happen, even among spenders

Simple coz the activity of players has dropped so low, and numbers, we deal with a core of players, and the rest of the players, who often won't ever achieve anything.   Your here just to fill spaces, i know it sounds negative but a while back the average player was 10-15 hours, now i think is even less, so when people get to a point even if after 100 days-200 days etc, depending what wack system they are on they don't want to lose it.   Some people value what they put in, some trust the wrong people, some ust apathetic and going through the motions, others like the leadership.    Fact is at the end of the day is so hard for many to form a team to change anything as people don't trust each other, as whenever things start to get planned, someone leaks, lies, fails to turn up to take advantage of a stituation etc.


So in conclusion

Yes is a large P2W element, no is not enough on its win. unless winning to you is one or two targets.   I don't donate and haven't due to the numbers game element of things. as would rather spend money on holidays, cars, second home after hearing over the years how much some will spend.   However if it wasn't for spenders, you wouldnt have the game still here.  Just remember taking power is one thing, holding it is another.

I agree with you mate, I am just really here to log in, click a few times, and log out. Its boring as fuck these days.

There's much more to this game than "winning" my friend.  But that's just my opinion, we all have one.  Have a good day!