I'd like to ask a question of all those willing to lend me their ear for a moment; a question concerning rogues and appropriate etiquette when these dastardly mobsters spring up from out of nowhere.

It appears that there are some differences in opinion in terms of how situations like this should be approached, so let's gather our opinions together and discuss it.

So, when a potential rogue appears to be on the loose - and I stress the word potential - are they free game? Should a non-upper structure member have the right to act accordingly, locate and shoot the possible perpetrator? Or should they wait for a verdict from above?

Some might argue that when a potential rogue turns loose, all lives are at stake. This is true; for a rogue, everyone is a target. With that in mind, does this afford a member the ability to abandon the common order of things in order to protect themselves and others by taking immediate action?

Or, to look at the flipside, is it too risky to allow a member to act before they know for certain that the individual concerned is indeed a rogue? If a member shoots someone that they believe to be a rogue, and it transpires that they are actually an authed bold suit, what are the consequences?

Lilac skips deftly along The Fine Line she'd just described, finishing up with a quick Irish jig and flourish.

There's no question here in my mind. It's an instant "They should shoot". If someone sets up without the proper and required authorisation in place, that's a legitimate shot without any hesitation.

I saw this both in terms of how things have always been done, but more so in how things should be done. If a rogue pops up it does put lives at risk. If there is hesitation in dealing with that threat, lives will be lost. If there was a difficulty in making everyone aware of the situation and that it was indeed a legit auth, potentially there would be a need for this discussion. However, as we have the streets to come to and make such an announcement in a timely manner, no such debate is required. The lives of our fellow made members, those friends of ours, are paramount. They must be protected or this entire thing of ours falls to pieces.

By saying 'saw' there, I meant to say 'say'. If you see what I mean about saying 'say'.

Lets use me as an example to this problem. Had I set up as a rogue prior to taking Godfather, every gun in our world would be lining up on me. It's become standard practise that Rogues are fair game who can hit them. How that policy came to be, I'm not sure, but thats just how the cookie crumbles as they same.

Ignore completely how it came to be Godfather Alexander, for the sake of discussion.

Imagine a world where we have no rule in this type of situation, what rule would you personally put in place?

It comes down to a number of things Godmother.

Let's start with the 'potential' rogue indeed being a rogue. There are no written instructions or rules on how a member should handle a rogue. There never have been as far as I am aware. The nearest you will find to a written rule regarding a rogue in any headquaters would be the normal rule set regarding shooting. "No shooting -48s, No shooting sponsored people etc etc etc". If you were to factor in a rogue to these normal and widely used rule sets then you would come up with the conclusion that a rogue is fair game.

It is not sponsored, it is over 48 hours old, it is not a CA, It is not a living persons BG and not is it someone elses MIA.

All of this in my opinion makes a rogue fair game to all members. Hopefully common sense will dictate whether or not a person will shoot at it or not. Knowing whether they can hit it or not.

With regards to giving people the knowledge of whether it is a rogue or not I would much rather see the old 'norm' be dragged back in to our generation. A leader should announce their auth well in advance of the new bold actually putting on his suit. It is a Godfathers responsibility to make people aware of their new captain in a wide a range as possible. It would be way to easy for a new auth to be shot down before anyone was any the wiser about whether this person was authorised or not to set up. Hell, I myself immediately thought ROGUE when I saw that Soprano had set up. This person, to me at the least is not known through generations. The characteristics and principles behind the person are not known to me. So naturally, first impression is rogue. It wasn't until I asked questions along IRC avenue and then saw an authorisation speech a few minutes later that my blood could stop racing and I could stop checking the latest obits.

Ignore completely how it came to be Godfather Alexander, for the sake of discussion.

Imagine a world where we have no rule in this type of situation, what rule would you personally put in place?

Id like to see the city that said rogue came from be responsible for their remove. But Im fully aware that a Rogue puts every city in danger, thus the reason for every active gun wanting to remove them.

From reading through the journals of my ancestors it seems to be a consensus that if the new bold suit has legitimate authorization there is first a public announcement of said authorization. This helps everyone to act accordingly to keep their families safe. Both the established and the new.

It is my understanding that it is stressed across this thing of ours, 'when in doubt, holster and seek guidence'. More often than not there is someone from the upper structure of each city available to field through questions of the legitimacy of an authorization.

People do have itchy fingers and mistakes are made from time to time. But as long as all lines of communication are open within a city we should be a me to see this thing of ours grow and expand with very little hiccup.

So would you, in your position as leader of a district, create a rule authorising your guns to remove such a threat in a timely manner in order to protect the lives of your family? If so, what criteria would you use to determine if it is indeed a rogue or a legitimate auth so that no mistakes would be made?

You'll see that the questions I'm asking are in fact leading you down a single path. I do admit that and do apologise for doing so. The reason for it is to show that it's simply common sense and for the safety of each of us that a notice of authorisation go up prior to a new leader setting up. I'm no more aware of how this tradition originally came to be than you are or I'm sure the vast majority of our population are, other than to say "It's common sense and for the protection of our loved ones".

There was notice given to the Upper structure of Soprano's intent to pull on a Bold suit, just adding that in as a side note.

However, I agree with Jono's stand point on this. The regular rules in place allow for most to take the shot as the person will fit none of the criteria that we aim to protect. However, I do also feel there is a massive difference between rogues of today and those of the past and as such it blurs the whole process of "potential rogue". What I mean is, how often would a leader be setting up without an army of Bodyguards by their side? How many people that currently employ an army of bodyguards would go rogue?

Its clear to me that if you see someone in a bold suit and see them with an army of bodyguards, its safe to assume they aren't a rogue.

Back in the day, from what i've heard/read, there wasn't many bodyguards in sight and so rogues were harder to define and that was mostly why there was some a big need to announce them, to prevent any needless deaths.

Just thought I'd share that little side view. I still feel an announcement in the streets for all of This Thing of Ours is the best approach prior to a new leader setting up, but I can understand why we've progressed to a stage where contacting the upper structures directly has become more common.

In fact, on that point, thats also another massive change from back when street announcing was the norm; our postal service didn't offer the facility to contact all of the upper structure in this life, with that now something often used for important matters it takes away from the need for the street announcement as people would already be aware of it through the postal service.

Tyrion while that is a good rule of thumb that if a new suit is surrounded by an army of bodyguards they are not likely to be a rogue. I also know my ancestors have been given the nod to don a bold suit and take charge of a new criminal enterprise with little more than one humble servant at his side willing to take a bullet for him. So the size of someone's personal protective army may help in making a decision whether a bold suit is legitimate it is not always the case.

Its clear to me that if you see someone in a bold suit and see them with an army of bodyguards, its safe to assume they aren't a rogue.

I can't agree with this for a moment Tyrion.

I would feel it's far safer to assume that if an authorisation speech hasn't been made, they ARE a rogue. In fact, I'd suggest that shouldn't even be an assumption at all. It should be the case. I'd suggest that a shot should be legitimately fired without delay, hesitation or without having to question anyone of any family... as has always been the case in the past.

If would appear to me, at least, that by far the easiest way to remove all doubt, remove all confusion or potentially allow any risk and or delay in dealing with a rogue (there shouldn't even be the doubt over whether it's a rogue or a potential rogue) is for the proper authorisation to be in place in advance. This not only removes all of these problems mentioned, but is far easy for the people concerned carrying out the auth as it saves them countless questions being raised about the legitimacy or not of the auth.

I can't see a single positive reason for this not to be the rule in place.

Even if it had never been a rule in the past, it most certainly should be one today. If it saved a single life, it would be more than worth it as there is no down side to its introduction... or retention, as I've never seen anyone suggest that a commonly adopted policy that has remained since the earliest days of this thing of ours should ever be removed. If it has been removed, I'd be the first to approach every single leader that would take the time to listen to outline why I feel it's reintroduction is the safest policy to adopt going forward.

"Its clear to me that if you see someone in a bold suit and see them with an army of bodyguards, its safe to assume they aren't a rogue."

Totally with Satanta on this one... assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.

I have a similar view Tyrion, but when someone with an army of BG's sets up and it takes SEVERAL minutes for them to...

*Build their forts

*Invite any Hands to their family

*Write an auth poster

Then I start to seriously worry.

OOC: I was refreshing the crew info page and the streets on seperate tabs for (as already stated) several minutes and nothing changed. The longer it went on the more anxious I got. It was only when he went IWF (that was the first of the 3 things done that i mentioned) that I started to think that maybe he was a legitimate auth.

So would you, in your position as leader of a district, create a rule authorising your guns to remove such a threat in a timely manner in order to protect the lives of your family? If so, what criteria would you use to determine if it is indeed a rogue or a legitimate auth so that no mistakes would be made?

I was privy to this new auth before he set up, as I read the mail. So in this instance I had no worries of a rogue.

I vote that we ought leave rogues alone and let them go about their merry way.

They are but harbingers of delight and whimsy, not malevolent forces of evil. They simply want to bring about a bit of randomness and chaos to our otherwise dreary, monotonous days.

Treat not rogues with bullets (or "letters", if you know what I'm saying), but with hugs and open arms.

And candy. Don't forget the candy.

Lilac love...this is how I see it.

There are very few people in these cities with the bollocks or the willingness to lose their high ranked life to ever challenge a new bold suit suspected of being bold. I have no qualms in believing 95% of the dons and Consigs in all Families in these cities would do one thing, run and hide and wait for someone else to find out.

I've stated elsewhere that I would have reacted in exactly the same was as Countdown, probably even more erratically to be honest, but there are very few people in these cities who would look for and defend against any suspected rogue.

When that day arrives when a serious rogue does appear and starts doing damage from the first shot then it is people like Countdown and Satanta i would expect to see hounding the bastard until someone died, not running and hiding even while people fall around you which can be said about far too many bloodlines on here.

The way I see it and what I recall from my ancestors is that rogues generally come in two forms, you have those who are having a hissy fit because their Boss didnt promote them or picked them last in baseball and you have the more experienced rogue who has reached a point in his life where he does not want to carry on in this world but wants to have some cheeky fun on the way out.

Now the first is not really a threat, yes they may have bodyguards because it has become so easy to buy protection these days but their gun may not be more than a pea shooter. Also they will generally go for a target they have a vendetta against such has their own CL and 99 times out of 100 they will fail miserably. These are little threat to our world on a whole and I trust any Crew Leader worth his weight to deal with them swiftly before any other crew even knows whats going on.

Now the second thread of rogue is a little more tricky to handle. In my experience its been fairly old mafiosos, high ranked, well protected, you know looks the part of a possible crew leader. They may have something a little stronger than a pea shooter and want to pick off a couple of targets before they leave this world for good.

Now in every case of a rogue this world has seen that rogue has wanted to inflict death or damage to someone, I may be wrong but I have never seen a rogue set up then simply go back to day to day life and try and start a peaceful family. This being the case rogues are a serious threat to every other innocent bystander in this world and thus should be dealt with as quickly as they came into this world. There will be frantic talks in coffeeshops as no one wants to miss a rogue and only prolong his path of destruction. Now during these frantic discussions it shouldnt take more than a quick glance at the streets to check the validility of the new man in the bold suit. No body is going to have time going round asking questions in such times. A second lost may be a life lost.

However all this said a rogue cannot be fair game to all for the simple fact some people are likely to fail in stopping him. Quick decisions must proceed quick actions.

Listens to Lilac say be you rogue? 

Nay, we are but men, Rock!

Headbangs into the distance