Ahhhh, I do love me some irony. So thank you for that Mr. Grey.

Button men in various families come to these streets pick up their soap boxes under the false pretenses of 'for the greater good' to say someone in power is conducting their business wrong. Just because it wasn't done the way they would have liked to have seen it done does not mean it was conducted in an ill formed manor.

And then these wolves I sheep's clothing flaunt that they have rectified a situation by paying for their indiscretions with some petty paper the squeezed off an old lady or from the till of the local 7-11. Our oaths are taken in blood not in paper. All business is conducted by the hard work and dedication of all parties involved and a small handful of paper that is easy to come by does not rectifiy disrespect.

Are you really trying to suggest that these comments weren't aimed directly and specifically at Countdown and I? If so, I'd have a serious chat with your subconscious at it appears to be getting the better of you.

I'm not a stupid man, I know it was aimed at us and at that single specific situation. I also know that there are both far more intelligent and less intelligent members of our community that can see that plainly too. If you're going to attempt to veil a discussion on a topic as being a generic discussion, you can't go giving details which are clearly specific to that topic. It just doesn't work and ends up showing you as a liar when you falsely deny it.

Given the fact that the streets have been void of any type of discussion or debate worth mentioning for such a long time, never mind anything that could be construed as potentially disrespect, even attempting to claim you aren't referring to Countdown and I is an insult to our intelligence and the intelligence of our entire community. One I don't appreciate.

Though this land is built on the stance of free speech we've all taken an oath in blood that we will respect others and not bring shame to our families.

No shame was brought on my family in that thread. No shame was brought to Countdown's family either. If either of us believed for a second that we had done such a thing, we'd be inconsolably apologetic for doing so. I can't speak for Countdown, but if I ever bring shame upon my family I would offer my life in a heartbeat for doing so while instructing my next of kin to serve in a better manner than I managed.

Standing up for something you believe in doesn't bring shame. Being passionate about something that effects our entire community doesn't bring shame. Raising an issue with others, even if they are the upper echelon of power doesn't bring shame. Having an intelligent debate, be it heated or otherwise, where no disrespect is thrown doesn't bring shame. Having an issue with an act or a situation (not with an individual or a city) doesn't bring shame and doesn't amount to disrespect.

What really bothers me is these people who have put respect to the wayside and come out in public and blatantly disrespect members of the upper echelon of power.

Now, I'm starting to take issue.

You've just accused me of disrespecting people. I won't and don't accept that. I'm highly insulted and unhappy about it. When I mistakenly thought your own city leader, Godfather Garcini, had done similar I queried him on it immediately. He himself cleared up that I hadn't insulted anyone.

If you're going to make such a false and slanderous accusation, please back it up with the slightest bit of proof. If not, please retract it. If you're going to attempt to hop on a high horse and have a scathing attack based on lack of respect, please at least do us the courtesy of not disrespecting me with lies or half truths in doing so.

*Hops down from his soapbox, picks it up and carries it off to do some work for the greater good*

I'm beginnig to agree with Old Tony here and this is becomming a broken record. I have said many times already that your words yesterday caused me to think. But I brought this subject to the public to debate in general terms. YOU were the one that spun it to be about one particular incident. YOU are the one that still keeps bringing private messages regarding that specific incident into public. YOU want it to be all about you. That's why YOU keep making it about you.

I wanted a debate on why we let money pay for our indiscressions. I am still curious what others have to think about the question originally posed? Why do we take an oath in blood if its money that makes the world go 'round?

When has money been used in the past to pay for indiscretion in the streets in recent times? When has a debate occurred involving multiple button men from one city debating with the highest powers in another in recent times? When have the people debating said that they aren't doing it for personal gains or to attack a city, but to help the community as a whole?

On one single occasion has that happened in recent times.

Although, I should point out that no money was paid for any insult. That was simply a kind gesture by Countdown for derailing an auth speech into a debate. It wasn't a punishment or a fine, as you've vaguely suggested.

If you wanted a general discussion, great, start one. But don't use all the points behind the general discussion to place the insults directly at my footsteps or those of Countdown. It's insulting to even claim that wasn't intended, so please don't claim that.

Since everyone seems to want to stick on one topic. Mr Satanta, how is openly threatening the life of a new bold suited member of our community not disrespectful? And no Mr Countdown's payments may not have been a punishment set from his upper structure. But it was a payment made because of his own feelings of guilt for his indiscretions. We can all play with the semantics here.

I'm not playing with semantics. I know for a fact that there is no feeling of guild or feelings of an indiscretion on Countdown's part. He felt bad for two friends, Cpt. Harris and Soprano, for derailing an auth speech into a debate, but that's far from guilt or any type of admittance of guilt.

Everyone doesn't want to stick to it, you raised it. You can claim how you wish that it was a general discussion you wanted, but if so why give the exact details that can only possibly pertain to a single event?

He didn't threaten the life of anyone. He pointed out that Soprano's life was put at risk due to the lack of an auth speech. This is a fact, not a threat. The fact that he went bold when 99% of our community had no knowledge of it put his life at risk. As it potentially put the life of anyone who took a shot mistaking him for a rogue. Those of us who didn't know the man in question might have had no idea of his personality, his former position or the trust that Chicago had obviously shown in him. Without those facts, which luckily Countdown himself was aware of, nobody could be faulted for thinking he might have been a rogue.

There were also no insults thrown at any member of or the entire city of Chicago. There was a flaw pointed out with a single situation. A situation that the leadership in Chicago appear to agree could be handled in a different and even improved way going forward.

Now, if I can for a moment ask you to return to my earlier question rather than watch you hop about for a leg to stand on. Where did I insult someone? And if I didn't can I have the retraction, please. I'm assuming you must this when I mentioned it earlier.

Making the claim in public to the effect of I could have shot you and I was getting ready to do so is threatening from my point of view. His congratulations could have been made public as they were, and then a private letter regarding the fact that the way the situation went down could have and may have potentially resulted in his death would have been more appropriate.

Where did you disrespect someone?

Common sense and better judgement would, without doubt, have led Countdown to believe that anybody going bold without a prior authorisation speech being made was in fact a rogue. There was no sudden urge to it, that is what happened and would always be what happened. I'll also be the first to say that while Countdown and I are the only ones saying it in public to date, there were dozens saying it behind closed doors at the time.

This statement infers that there was a lack of common sense and poor judgement on the behalf of Chicago regarding the situation. And the fact that many other people may have thought it but didn't bring it up in public was because they knew it was not their place to make such a claim. Because making such a claim in public is in itself disrespectful.

Keme walked over and winked at the men standing here arguing. Giving them all a shy smile she then walked over the Christian and put her arm around him, while standing by his side.

"Hello, my dear friend. I heard you wanted some insight on being respectful."

Running her fingers through her hair and then slightly glancing over to Mr. Grey she continued.

"I'm going to completely ignore everyone pinning this on the other days argument, as I can see everyone still has ruffled feathers from it, and answer you directly, instead of going off course and continuing the hideous debate we all once had."

"You see, my dear, this has been something that has been becoming a problem for a long time. It is a gift and a curse when you wish to allow people to speak freely. Yes, there are many ways to not be disrespectful and plenty of people have mastered this. Yet, when we stop severely punishing people for being rude, shooting innocent people, or any other incident that used to be taken extremely seriously, but now we just demote and pay people off, you can see how people become less frightened of the consequences. If they know they can go to the streets or shoot something they shouldn't and only get a slap on the hand. Then well, they won't bother at all to really worry about what will happen to them if they do it."

"Of course I know we all have a conscious, or so I hope, and we feel bad for doing something we may feel was wrong, but we are no longer worried about losing our own life for doing so. Does this mean we all have become softies? No, I just feel times change. Does this mean people shouldn't still respect others? Not at all, I think they should, but for one person what they feel is being respectful to another could be beyond rude. It is all how one takes things. Like right now, everyone is taking this as an attack on what happened the other day."

Giving Christian a kiss on the cheek she then gave everyone else a quick wave and walked down the street to a business she had some dealings to handle with.

Christian returns his dear friends warm embrace

So wonderful to see you today madam Keme. I think you hit the nail on the head of he intentions of my ramblings. Everything we say and do here is subject to any number of people's interpretations. I agree that the fact that in recent times the trend for a punishment to be a fine of way too easily come across money that we have become a little less that respectful in public.

This statement infers that there was a lack of common sense and poor judgement on the behalf of Chicago regarding the situation. And the fact that many other people may have thought it but didn't bring it up in public was because they knew it was not their place to make such a claim. Because making such a claim in public is in itself disrespectful.

That statement infers nothing of the sort.

That statement is a comment on fact, that Countdown's wish to protect his family and friends would directly lead him to that conclusion, not opinion or inference of anything what so ever to do with Chicago.

The fact that many others thought it but didn't bring it up has nothing to do with them knowing their place, it's to do with fear. I understand and know my place fully. I engaged in the debate in a thoughtful manner and expressed my opinions in a meaningful way with due care and attention. I stand by every word I said, having given them great care and attention before expressing them, and am fully confident that I did so with no insult being thrown towards Cpt. Harris, Soprano or the city of Chicago. I actually tend to greatly over think my words, removing opportunities for ambiguity or a double meaning, so will always defend them to my last breath.

The fact that others aren't willing or capable of doing something will never stop me. That's one of the things that makes me me and one of the things I hope I never lose. It's a very fine line between engaging in a debate and ending up dead due to one, but that's a line my bloodline has always been happy to walk and to this day none have ever suffered (never mind died) from it. Others can't say the same, so fear prevents them from even attempting such a thing. Take your own speech as an example. This could easily be a very engaging and positive discussion on respect. However, by starting it with a very specific scenario which relates to one individual event and thus throwing insults at Countdown and myself, it crossed the line.

If you wish to return to times when no decision or act is ever questioned, even in respectful ways, then so be it. Set down your rules and see who's willing to live by them. This world has seen that happen numerous times in the past and I'm sure it will again in the future. Our community suffered horribly for it and the end results were horrid for the people concerned. However, if you ever expect me to hold my voice when something I'm passionate about and am willing to die for becomes the topic of conversation in a public place you're sadly mistaken.

I'm a little surprised by your suggestion of insult given the fact that Godfather Garcini didn't feel the comment in question was insulting, that Ms. Katniss (who it was a direct reply to) I've spoken with since the discussion and didn't feel it was insulting, and nobody else has raised it as insulting until this moment. I've already outlined why I feel the comment in question couldn't possibly be insulting, it's a comment on fact surrounding Countdown, so I strongly disagree with you.

Mr Satanta that was actually your response to DrNeo, not the wonderful Katniss. But all words, mine included are subject to interpretation by the reader. While your intentions may not have been malicious, questioning the intelligence of someone in the upper echelon of Chicago can be taken as disrespectful. My intentions here were not intended to be malicious or to make slight at any one person in particular. My intentions, yes given the recent events, were to bring to light a discussion on why we've let some subjective manners such as respect in the streets fall to the wayside with the punishments if deemed necessary a slap on the wrist and possibly a fine of all to easy to come by money.

My apologies for the slip there. It was in fact the delightful Godmother Lilac that DrNeo was quoting in his response and not the delightful Ms. Katniss. It's quite hard to keep track of so many delightful ladies when you're as shy as I am and end up staring into the ground rather than being intimidated by their beauty.

Where in that comment did I question anyone's intelligence? I stated that it was a natural, expected and common sense approach for Countdown to have the reaction he had. I can't see any way you could possibly infer an insult against anyone from that comment. If I had questioned the intelligence of anyone whose position placed above mine in this thing of ours I would fully expect, and would agree with, my death for such a thing. That isn't good for business, it isn't good for relations and it's not my place to do such a thing.

Please remember, the issue raised in that thread is one which has been common to every city in this thing of ours in recent times as has been identified in that discussion. If I were insulting the Chicago hierarchy, I would also have been insulting that of Detroit, New York and Philadelphia as well. It wasn't an attack on Chicago, it wasn't an insult of anyone's intelligence and I'm a little baffled as to how you can possibly take it as such. It was a factual statement aimed directly at Mr. Countdown... and I know for a fact that he wasn't insulted by it.

... bring to light a discussion on why we've let some subjective manners such as respect in the streets fall to the wayside with the punishments if deemed necessary a slap on the wrist and possibly a fine of all to easy to come by money.

In that case, I'd ask where such a thing has occurred?

I haven't seen any examples of it since my return to these shores. I value honour and respect as much as anyone. I value appropriate punishments that fit the crime as much as anyone. If I saw either in jeopardy, you can be sure I'd be grabbing my soap box once again for the greater good.

I simply haven't seen it. Again, if you're trying to suggest it did occur in the speech that was the base of your opening comments I'll point out that your own city leader said that wasn't insulting.

If anything, I'd suggest that rather than our streets falling in its level of respect, it's simply falling in its level of activity. People fear sharing opinions, they fear engaging in debate, they fear making a slip in case it may end in their death. Prior to the flurry of activity in the last day or so, there wasn't enough activity for there to be a fall in the levels of respect. The only way it could happen is if 100% of the speeches made were of a disrespectful or insulting nature. That isn't what I witnessed on my walks down the streets.

The lack of activity is a huge problem. My bloodline included has shied away from the streets in the past for fears of retribution. The matter of disrespect in this specific scenario doesn't fall entirely with the words. Which taken in the wrong context can be deemed disrespectful. In this specific case the location is the context.

Chicago was out to have a celebration for the masses to welcome a new family to it ranks. This celebration was soon met with aggression and hostility. While there was already a debate down the block regarding what was considered a 'Rogue', Mr Countdown shows up to our celebration screaming that Soprano was initially viewed a man of ill intention.

Mr Countdown's own admission of guilt, in the form of a payment made to The Captain and Mr Soprano, shows that he had some remorse in the way he conducted himself in celebrations following the poster presentation. But is that enough? I don't condone the silencing of the streets though blood because of an ill placed view point. I still question whether the fact that since money is so easy to come by is a fine (which in this case not a fine but a form of a peace offering) enough to keep our words tactful and in the proper location?

Just to clarify something that I've said before somewhere... maybe even in private to Soprano and Cpt-Harris.

I totally regret bringing all that up in that poster. However, the placing of it is the only mistake I made (in my eyes) I regret none of that content in there.

That is where my, (as you put it) 'admission of guilt' lies.

I'll have to aim carefully here, the goal posts seem to be moving pretty fast for even me to keep up with.

I won't disagree that the location wasn't ideal. Even Countdown himself has agreed with that, which is what led to his voluntary contributions to two friends he greatly respects as a sign that no ill intentions were meant. He has clearly mentioned this already and was the one who brought up the payments for transparency in the first place so that something he brought public wasn't then being conducted behind closed doors when it might have suited him.

However, the choice of location is secondary to raising an issue which potentially impacts each and every life in this thing of ours. It was only later in the discussion that it came to light that the issue in question is and was relevant to all cities and an ongoing concern, not just a one off relating to that specific auth. The location wasn't chosen as an insult or to derail a particular celebration, simply as a result of the two things being directly related.

As for the "debate down the block regarding what was considered a 'Rogue'", that was only raised following the initial discussion not before. You can check the timelines to confirm, but I'm happy to assure you that was the case.

On the point of money being used as a punishment, it's hard to give a general answer with that. It really comes down to the specifics of the individual cases. What one man would view as a fitting punishment is subjective and will all depend on the circumstances. Personally, I'm an all or nothing type. You've either crossed the line and deserve death, or you're still the right side of it and just deserve a good ass whooping on the streets. I normally prefer to see the latter, but if lines are crossed I'm all for seeing the former to ensure the tenants of this thing of ours remain intact.

Mr Satanta we seem to be moving right along into a very safe place that I like to call common ground. I couldn't agree more that punishments are sujective. Not only to fit the circumstances but in the way they are precieved. Only if a crime fits the bill should it be punished by death. An eye for an eye if you will. In this regard I still have a problem with money being the punishment. Not only is money so readily available in this thing of ours, how do you put a price on a transgression? Where is the criteria to which it is being measured? Is the fine fitting for the crime? Does the fine put the person in a position where it makes them really stop and think? Will the person in question pay the fine themselves or will it be paid on their behalf by their crew leader?

There are just too many variables when money is involved. I personally like to subscribe to a bit of name and shame. Not public humiliation but enough to make one stop and think. A demotion of rank which in itself strips you of some of the perks you've accrued, and public apologies should it fit the situation. Then and only then should a fine be imposed. Since we have no rubric the severity of the offenses is subject to interpretation with all parties involved. History has shown us that the masses enjoy public shame. Trials and executions have throughout the age been a public spectacle. From the burning at the stake of Joan of Arc to the Salem witch hunts the public has viewed it as entertainment.

Let us holster our guns and not be so quick to pull a trigger, but at the same time let us find a punishment that holds true in every similar situation, with enough weight that it makes one stop and contemplate the transgression.

Let us holster our guns and not be so quick to pull a trigger, but at the same time let us find a punishment that holds true in every similar situation, with enough weight that it makes one stop and contemplate the transgression.

This is the part that I, personally, find the most interesting. In most cases, the specifics of such a subjective event will be unique. Either due to the circumstances, the relationships at play, the individual personalities involved or any other million possible factors. It makes it extremely difficult for anyone to make templates or a system to handle such events. It really has to be looked at on a case by case basis.

This, also, is one of the things I love about our world. Seeing how a leader handles these types of challenges is exhilarating at times. Equally in terms of how they handle situations in the streets, what they consider to be crossing the line and especially when it comes to enforcing punishment upon those that do cause breaches of their code. Go too lean, you risk losing an element of control and possibly even respect. Go too harsh and you will undoubtedly lose respect, loyalty and potentially even family.

As I mentioned, I'm personally a bit of an all or nothing when I don't think on it too much. You're either fine or you've crossed the line. In reality, there unquestionably is grey areas for all of us. It went too far, but not far enough to warrant death. You've suggested that a fiscal punishment is nothing more than a slap on the wrist. I guess it depends on the size of that fine/payment, but I won't disagree with you that it's potentially on the lighter end of the scale.

I'm not even sure what other punishments I, if I were in a position where it would be required, would consider. Stripping of rank is certainly an option. Though if someone someone had sworn the oath and was a button holder and the only punishment fitting of the crime was to strip them of their button, I'd begin to wonder if that crime wasn't already fitting of death. Having said that, I'm also the type that believes that once you swear loyalty to a family, that's where you live and that's where you die. The only way you leave is in a body bag or to enter a new headquarters on your family heads instructions, or heavens forbid be forced to leave due to the loss of a leader. So, potentially, my owns views on this are a little on the extreme side.

Mr Satanta while I agree the punishment should fit the crime let me throw out some numbers for why I feel that monetary retribution does not make people even take heart the impact of a well placed or even an ill placed word. Through my various business ventures, I make on average one hundred thousand dollars an hour. I can take a shit and wipe my ass with a million dollars and not even bat an eyelash. So to ask me to pay a fine wouldn't even cause me to feel any pain. I may be fifty shades of fucked up but hurting monetarily is not one of those shades.

I too also agree that with our blood oaths that we all take upon receiving our buttons we should all live and die for our families. The only way out at this point is in a body bag. Unless of course should the certain circumstances arise where the untimely death of a leader leaves a button man homeless.

It will take more than just you and I exchanging views to bring about a change to start to standardize a punishment but it's at least a starting point. I don't aim to silence the streets. Quite the contrary, I would like to see the streets flourish in a tactful and well placed manner.