Unknown man:"MERITOCRATIC SOCIETY? I think not Sanction."

Sanctionater: "You are wrong. You are so wrong that I intend to tell everyone here why you are wrong. That is how wrong you are. You wrong person. I hate you okay?"

Sanctionater has a little laugh at how stupid he sounds when he tries to make a point.

Can I grab everyone's attention for a second please, I have something I want you to ponder on.

Sanctionater stands on the shoulders of TyrionLannister to get a higher vantage point.

Right, today I am not here to boast about how many women I sleep with on a weekly basis. I know, you are as surprised as I am. It is an average of 5 by the way... But that is not important right now. Today I want to bring up the question, do we live in a meritocratic society? Is achievement REALLY based on effort and ability? OR are we just lead to believe this is so?

Here is my opinion. I believe our society is very meritocratic, if you put in the hard work and gain ability through this you are on a gleaming path to success and achievement. If you don't put in the effort and in turn lack ability, you are heading down a path that should not be walked. I have seen many people that are new to these shores achieve greatness, simply because they put in that crucial effort needed. They asked questions, they learned and they done.   I know people right now are thinking "I love you Sanctionater".. I love you too pretty ladies. Let's get back on a serious note though, there have been many cases of meritocracy.. but then again some things have contradicted this.

Let's now discuss reasons against it. What about those members who have built a reputation from their bloodline, good or bad either way it is a reputation. Are the bad bloodline's straight away judged? Therefore even though they could put in that effort and have good abilities they will still have a glass ceiling effect applied to them? Are they just lead to believe they can make it one day and get BOLD but instead are being hindered by their bloodline?

What about the people with a good reputation from their bloodline? Do they not put in the effort that many others do and get treated better due to bloodline abilities? Are they getting a load of BGs and becoming bold because of what their ancestors have achieved? 

Any females that want to come back to mine, I will judge you on a meritocratic basis. You will be chosen due to effort and ability. 

Sanction gets off TyrionLannisters shoulders.

The sins of the father dont carry over to the son. That's how I tend to believe. I maybe be alone in that statement, but its my stance.

Tips his hat towards Alexander.

Also a stance I whole heartedly agree with. The question is does everyone? Certain individuals may live this way which of course supports meritocracy in a great way. What about the social group as a whole...

In large portions of our history there has been the glass ceiling effect. It is still around today, although not as rampant as it once was.

I have an acquaintance from another city who I believe would make one of the finest leaders we've ever seen but her bloodline is victim of the 'glass ceiling effect'. For all the time our lineage's have crossed she has always been fiercely loyal to her leader and city and rewarded with hand positions... but because her blood is so good at these positions, they never get auth (I do believe she was bold once, but in a city experiment). It has become expected that she is to be a hand. Let me make it clear that it is not only recent times this has happened... it has been like this as far back as we've known each other.

As for some people getting preference for their bloodline's achievements, yes... this does happen. The obvious example I could possibly point out is in my own family, Marston. He may have paid for his bodyguards through his father's inheritance but even if my boss had decided to buy them for him I would 100% back that decision. Marston's bloodline has proven time and time again that they can be a trusted member who can build a gun faster than most. It's just common sense to get these people BG'd up as soon as possible. You KNOW that unless your time ends rather abruptly you're going to get a return either in terms of earnings or a top gun loyal to you.

There are bloodlines that I would give bodyguards and bold status to earlier than most others if I was in that position. crab, Jaqen_Hghar and my boss DeadlySin spring to mind. With their history and reputation I'd be confident enough taking that chance. It is much like horse trainer's buying offspring purely because of their genetic DNA... you're taking a gamble, but it's one of the safer bets and could produce an absolute gem.

People most definitely do not forget in a hurry, I know this from personal experience. For all I've achieved, my ancestor's traditional stance, views and hot temper have held me back. People still expect the worst, but it has yet to happen.

Tyrion brushes his shoulders and growls at Sanctionater

Well, despite abusing me to ask your question, it's still one I find very interesting. You see, there is no right answer in my opinion. There have been, and will be again, people that are awarded either positions or protection based solely on their ancestors and have done little or nothing to earn it, yet there are others who have done much and more and gained nothing to show for it. It's not simply society itself that is the problem though, as the situation differs entirely on who the person that makes the choice is.

As Countdown said, his own bloodline has suffered due to the fact they are always known for being the type to run their mouth at the drop of the hat, with no regard for their health. He himself is very much different to others in the TeQ bloodline, he has shown that he can earn the trust and respect of those who matter in not only his own city, but other cities too. Due to that you can see he is a well guarded man. I don't doubt for a minute that had this been one of his ancestors, the men guarding him right now would not be standing there. Few would have risked the cost to hire these men based on the nature of the beast. And I say that as someone that respects him and his ancestors completely. But has he done anything different to his ancestors? He's still as loyal as they were, he still works as hard as they did, the only difference now is that he has more tact about him and has chosen to show more restraint.

So I guess I do feel that we live in a Meritocratic society, but there will always be exceptions where someone as Countdown said, gets given a leg up based on their bloodline. More often than not these people repay that ten fold and prove themselves over time, again using Marston as an example his bloodline is famed in recent times for reaching positions of power and being a strong and formidable force in this thing of ours, so of course his Son would be rightly protected and afforded the chance to step into his fathers shoes, it simply makes sense.

But overall, I don't think you can say the world is one or the other, as the situation differs not only city to city, but leader to leader.

Some very interesting points there Countdown, I am very glad you have shared them!

From what I gather you believe meritocracy thrives through bloodline not just the current character? Therefore people deserve the benefit of the doubt due to their ancestors ability and effort? I believe this is a fair system, if their ancestors have proved they are hard working.. they deserve to be believed to have high potential.

As for your friend, I see what you mean. Once someone has shown superiority in one given sector, they are seen as always a safe bet to be given that same position over and over again. Maybe that is not what they wanted though, perhaps their ancestors liked those positions but they currently are aiming to get another position. It seems their ability and effort is misunderstood and people view them exactly the same as their ancestors were viewed. 

Looks and TyrionLannister and gives him a cheeky smile.

It seems to me from what I have heard from you and Countdown that meritocracy is alive... But lives through bloodlines. Therefore if the ability and effort is known to be at a high standard within your bloodline, then you deserve the 'VIP' treatment. 

This is a point I can agree with. Although I would like to take a look at the bad bloodlines. What if their bloodline is not appreciated and doesn't have a good reputation, yet currently their son/daughter is putting in a massive amount of effort and has a great abilities? Are they not still deterred from achieving their goals? I believe they are still deterred overall... Even in the sense that they have to put in MORE effort just to reach the same position as someone that didn't put in as much effort. 

It is a huge deterrent and it takes a strong will to not get frustrated with it. But it is the way of this world and probably always will be. It's just something people have to put up with... we don't live in a fair world, this is the mob.

I think if more people could forget about others' history, this world would be a little bit more exciting place. So many bloodlines generation after generation tow the line and die because they know what strife it will bring their offspring should they not follow the accepted and expected ways of a mafioso. Some are afraid to stand up for their own morals for fear they'll be persecuted for it... which they will be to some extent.

You see thats something I'm often torn on. I've always believed the son is the son and cannot be blamed for the fathers actions.. but then, why do we credit the son for the good they did? Surely if we credit children for their parents work, we must also tarnish them for the bad that they did? For me its a catch 22 situation. We can't have it both ways.

However, there must always be a chance given to the son to prove themselves to be different to their parent, whatever wrongs the father did should not hold the son back, but should not be forgotton either, just as the good is remembered. There are many bloodlines who fall into the category of being automaticaly deemed "bad", one most recently infamous for this is the Melis bloodline, an often misunderstood person who always works hard for the family and tributes a tremendous amount of money. I would say Melis could be described as the female variety to Countdown, someone that speaks their mind and holds true to their own values and isn't swayed - occassionaly to the point of being stuborn. Again, I say that as someone that has respect for the Melis bloodline like I do Countdowns.

The other verison of this would Kuku. But I don't need to go into too much detail there, everyone knows why he was tarred as "bad", but everyone can see him clearly now and see that he has turned over a new leaf. One that many knew his bloodline was capable of doing and was the reason so many got frustrated with him in the past.

Ideally Id like to see each generation be judged upon what they're doing now, not what theyve done in prior lives. The son of the father may have the same blood, but they dont always have the same intents. Instantly rewarding them for prior events is a practice I for one would like to see done away with. Let him, or her build up their own reputation and earn their acceptance based soley upon what they're doing here and now.

Countdown that is very true. I believe most people these days do not say what they feel or carry out a action purely based on how it will affect or portray their bloodline, which is truly a shame! Then again I don't really blame people for 'worrying' about a certain person based on their bloodline. If you know someone's ancestors have caused problems, it is a natural reaction for people to be quite defensive and too look after the safety of their friends and family members in case history is repeated. As many say, history has a strange way of repeating itself.

We can only dream of a society where bloodlines won't be judged in my opinion. As Tyrion said, we seem to have more of one and less of the other... And I honestly can never see this changing due to the human nature of decision making.

I believe, personally, that it is very much down to who is in power. Some bloodlines, and i refrain from mentioning them are somewhat notorious, for authing and empowering the same bloodlines over and over again.

However, on the other side, there are many bloodlines past and present, in power who do work off the idea of the functionalist, meritocratic society. I certainly believe that a meritocratic society is the only way in which our world will evolve to a sufficient degree.

In expansion to my earlier point "Some bloodlines, and i refrain from mentioning them are somewhat notorious, for authing and empowering the same bloodlines over and over again." Let us consider, is it that these bloodlines are authed for who they are or is it the fact that no matter what, their bloodlines continue to give our world everything they have and prove, time and time again, that they are the best person for the position. I think both sides of this argument are true to a degree, however a meritocratic society is the only way that our society will continue to improve and not become stagnant, which is an argument, that we have heard many times in the past.

I for one, am very happy with the way our society is and the progress that it is making.

I would like to say that people get somewhere based on their achievements but my bloodline would know better. There are cases where people do work hard and it pays off for the better. They get their chances which is always good to see. No one should ever be held back if they have proven their hard work and loyalty.

But as it  has been pointed out not everyone's hard work is acknowledged because of past events. Some of these events become fuzzy after years but it is still held against them. Whether they are loyal and hard working seems to matter not if their bloodline is deemed "bad". A "bad" bloodline apparently can't change even if there is proof to the contrary.

That is the way in which our society works. If certain people are disliked by the upper structures at the time, then their work matters not to them. It makes it harder to try and show that there is a change that has been made if everyone looks at the past.  

So in answer to the original question, some bloodlines do get treated better without doing anything other than being the son or daughter of a particular bloodline and some can't get past a "bad" bloodline as much as they try. As well as some get where they are based on the work they do in this thing of ours.

Some good points made there. I also want to add another two view points into this discussion.

Friendship being the first, do people get positions of power, simply because they are "friends" with someone higher up than them. Does this automatically give them an advantage over someone that is putting in as much effort and has the same amount of abilities? Does it even give them a advantage over those putting in MORE effort?

Adding to that there seems to be people that can "trade" the gods some things and in turn are given more wealth, I believe it is a great thing that they trade with the gods, since the gods deserve it. Whether this "trade" means they don't have to put in as much work as the people that don't have anything to trade I am not too sure on. I believe it is a advantage and helps them achieve higher power without as much effort, yet the ability I believe it doesn't effect.

A very interesting discussion Sanctionater, thank you for raising it.

I think a very important point to raise as part of this discussion is that we're generalising. Now we do have to in order to make it a discussion, but it is a caveat that must be attached and should be at the forefront of every mind when engaging in it or simply listening to it. 

With that in mind, do we live in a meritocratic society?

On one side of the coin we have a "Hell no". We live our lives by a code and the tenants that exist in this thing of ours. Nowhere in our traditions, in our philosophy, in our teaching or in our ways is a political philosophy such as meritocracy preached. If someone starts expecting certain things as a result of their merits, they're failing in following the code we have for this thing of ours and the tenants we build our families around begin to crumble.

Having said that, obviously it is a subjective assessment and there is a second side to that coin. If our leadership decides to reward family members without due regard for meritocracy, our traditions also crumble. In fact, they do so in a much worse and far more dramatic way. Families must be inspired, encouraged and nurtured in order for them to flourish. If those putting in the work and effort aren't handled in the right way, the respect and honour that families are built on will fall to the side and they simply won't last.

How should work be judged? What level of work deserves rewarding if we do look at things as a meritocracy? Those are decisions and questions that will change from leader to leader and as time passes even within an individual. The ones that handle the situations that arise well and make decisions that the community respect, both internally and externally, will flourish. Those that lose the respect of the community will have their poor decision making come back to haunt them. There's no qualitative right or wrong answer to many of the questions this discussion will pose, but the subjective view of the masses will mean that some decisions will have disastrous effects. 

Our way of life carries many traditions. A fundamental of those is respect of rank and position. While this is the case and is as true today as it was in the past, there's a big difference between having someone respect you simply for your rank or position and not also respecting the person behind it. If a leader can't achieve the latter, they are destined to fail. If a leader doesn't reward those who have earned respect or a position on a meritocratic basis, is that someone you'd respect?

I think sometimes the problem is as my ancestors have found before is you need a right level of usefulness, enthusiasm and hard work to earn your place in the upper echelons of the crime world.   You have to be careful not to be too useful so that you can be perceived a future rival, threat or a member that a family cannot do without.

A long time ago, many generations past a member of my line was a great hitters, he pickpocketed. He earned a lot of money but as all the rest of the family at the time did not follow the same path he was relied on daily for his skills and income.  Even when shipping over 60 units he was told, you will get your own family month after month even though he had never made such a request.  The big problem came over and over, we need your earnings to reinvest in to bodyguards for hitters, we need the money for hands in the city and eventually we could not cope without your gun in the family.   Eventually he died in a war never fulfilling his potential and was a process that has happened to other relatives of mine. 

During his time, he watched faces authed, die and be authed again just do to who they were and it just made him think society was broke, but that it wasn’t always a constant.  Sometimes a new regime will allow more opportunities then others; of course this brings other problems my family have seen where a crew leader is ill equipped to handle the task of leadership or has limited knowledge, communication skills, limited effort as a leader as if seeing Don Family head as almost a pinnacle of their existence and has just put a lot of hard work in with limited skills to get there.

The truth is for me, is down to the leaders, the city heads and where they feel a city is heading and what resources they have left to build or rebuild with.  It is a lot of pressure with so many live in someone’s hands that one person can screw everything up.  Most of our family lines have pasts or rivalries and some people will look at it or carry their name forward more than others but there will always be a few people who look and think even if the majority do not.  I think an element of meritocracy exists but an element of a person’s bloodline can be the difference maker or a key factor in some cases.