Tinkerbell flutters out into the streets. Sprinkling fairy dust in her path. Her mind wanders to the topic she dares to speak on. Standards. The word rings through her mind as she clears her throat.

Standards. Have they dropped around these parts? Before there were set consequences for certain actions that no longer seem to be held to every person. There were standards that were set for ranks. Now I don't claim to know about every crew's rules and I know that some still hold proper standards across the boards. Some don't let their hitters slide by with minimal earnings and some do. The question is do other people think standards in our community have slipped? Do you feel that not everyone is held to a set of standards and that some slide by due to other circumstances? The circumstances of course would vary.

In one conversation that I have participated in was one of hitters versus earners. Are earners just to be money mules for hitters? Should they be made to feel like they are not as important? My bloodline remembers when they were more important. It was earners that kept hitters protected. Do hitters get all the glory? Do they get a free pass to requirements that everyone else would follow? Personally in a lot of places I think they do. I often wonder why this is. They have the same amount of time to make the same amount of money.

Are the standards slipping because expectations have changed? Do people no longer believe that members can reach a set of standards? Is this due to lack of training or lack of interest?

I realize this is a lot of questions but I am curious. These questions have been on my mind quite a bit lately.

Fluttering to the ground Tinkerbell moves out of the way so others can be heard.

I don't know if the standards have dropped as my bloodline is fairly new around these shores, but I'll try to answer your other questions as best I can.

Personally I think earners are just as important as hitters and they should be treated as equals, at least thats the way I see it.

Both are important to make the organization go around so to say.

I don't know if that answers all your questions but its the best I can do.

I literally had to crawl out of my hole in the ground to respond to this, it's a little too bright out here for my tastes.

Anyways, the price of being a hitter has increased ten fold here recently. With the change in flight restrictions this world has seen recently, taking on contracts have become a necessity. A hitter is looking at four million a week, out of his own pocket, to purchase the contracts. They in turn have to have a bit more faith in their leader that they can distinguish between the two and set things accordingly. Let's be honest for a second here, there's no such thing as equals in this world, someone or something is always better. With what hitters have to spend, explain to me why earners shouldn't have to earn a bit more to be considered good at what they do?

The standards are what they are, if you don't know someone then you actually have to outwork everyone else, that's the way it's always been. Another topic for another debate I'm afraid.

Angela, standing a step behind her husband, peers over his shoulder as he speaks to the glittering bug. Listening intently she nods her head in approval. As he finishes what he was saying she slides around in front of him, his arm wrapping around her waist as she speaks up.

Well, you see this is a tricky thing really because unless you are a member of every family that resides across our country, you really don't know what the standards they ask of their members are. Personally, I try not to involve myself in things that do not affect me. It's not my business. I live for my family and my city, nothing more. On that note all I can do is comment on the standards that my Don and my Godfather hold me to and I was raised to believe that things that involve the inner workings of my family, stay in my family and are not for public knowledge. If I felt there was an issue with the way standards are in my family or city, I'd go to the people that run it instead of airing out that information in the street.

As for hitters versus earners, I want to reiterate what my husband has said. There is no way to fairly hold the two groups to one requirement. To make a hitter have the same amount of earnings as somebody who is simply a drug mule for the family is not a wise move and likely to cause a rift in the precious balance of a family. Many hitters support their blood hungry addiction out of their own pockets, leaving less money for them to send up to their boss, but in return for this they give their life offering protection for their family and city. I would say that was a more than a fair trade. As time has went by many changes have graced our land making it harder for our hitmen to train their guns, so the limited contracts offered have become more important to them, part of the change being those contracts have become much more costly. Let's not forget about those muscly men that follow people around, many are paid and trained by the person they follow around, more money out of pocket. You must also remember, although hitters and earners have the same amount of time to earn one of the big money makers is drugs. Earners fly for drug prices, our hitters fly for hits. So upon arriving to their destination sometimes they are at a great loss when it comes to selling drugs. It's the price you pay

I wouldn't argue that hitters are more important than earners, they each are valuable in their own way, but to argue that hitters must be required to meet the same earning standard as somebody around just to earn for a family is unjust. If leaders are to hold their hitters to that standard they would be holding them back from doing what they are good at, which would in turn hurt themselves.

My question though is, you state you think hitters get away with certain requirements others are held up to, what makes you think this? Without being in every family, the only family's requirements you know of is of your own family. In which case would be best brought to your Don or Godfather, not the streets.

Have certain standards and expectations changed? Yeah, I'm sure they have, like most things they also change with time to reflect what is happening around us. There are still people out there that hold people to great expectations, but again, you can't hold everybody to the same expectations. We all have our individual talents, and standards and expectations should reflect that.

Ill only comment on the standards I have set for my own people, as Im not one to make sweeping generalizations on things I'm not aware of. Every member of my crew now, and before I took Godfather was held to the same standard. My hitmen, my earners, my pick pockets, and the lady that did my books. Each person is required to pull his or her weight equally without any special treatment.
I dont care what your chosen profession is, you will be the best at it that you can be, while still maintaining your status within my headquarters.

I have to somewhat agree with you Ganked. The eternal search for extra security and to believe you are the strongest out there leads to people never truely realising their potential.

It is the risk takers, the people who make the bold moves who tend to be remembered. I have no great knowledge of our recent history but certain leaders and their actions/words will always be remembered by those lucky enough to have witnessed them and died with or against them.

These days it seems like everyone has a fort, a billion dollars, 30 hitters and an army of bodyguards who in reality shouldn't be allowed near a GF by his own family, when and where did a private paid BG become trusted enough to have 24hr access to a Godfather?

Shouldn't a GFs bodyguards be his most loyal and trusted Family members?

I can only speak from personal experience, and may not necessarily speak the views of my CL or Chicago, but here is my two cents.

I see differing standards, you have the experienced players,  new players and inactive members. Experienced members usually have already proven themselves many times before, so they do not need to try their hardest to get the respect and trust of the family members. New members need to prove themselves, especially to get made man. They need to try harder than most to show that they can be a vital part of the family.

However, i am not implying that experienced players are lazy in any way, 99% of the time its the experienced players who bring in the money, the ones who achieve the standards to get allowed in the family way before they are old enough to become a made man, they are also the ones you can trust easier, especially if your bloodlines have worked before or they have someone to vouch for them.

But then there are incatives (or near inactives), every family has them, they are allowed to live in these streets but bring in hardly any money, have no ability to protect their leaders and still expect the same sort of respect as someone bringing in $10mil a week. But you still need them dont you? or do you?

As for hitters versus earners, each are important in their own way, of course you have different standards for each, its a balance between having enough money to support your family, and having enough firepower to support your family. You need to treat them differently, but the same basic standards must be met, they must still be loyal, trustworthy and have the upmost respect for their family and city.

There will always be differing standards, this comes with having friends, people get treated differently. You cannot tar everyone with the same brush, you expect more of some than you do of others. The only difference being, when your end is met, will you new bloodline be accepted into a new family with their ancestors name sung from the heavens? or will you always be known as the slacker that doesn't do anything?

Your life is what you make it.

There are a lot of questions raised in this one, lets try and tackle a few of them one at a time...

Are earners just to be money mules for hitters?

Earners are there to earn. What that money then gets used for is a decision for the leadership of the family to make. If some of it is used to protect a families hitsquad, the last line of defence for any family, that's a worthy and worthwhile investment for sure.

Should they be made to feel like they are not as important?

Obviously not. Money makes our world go around. In the majority of cases, the entire defence of our families is gained using cash payments. The ability to earn this cash is vital to this thing of ours and to a families (or cities) survival. Obviously it's great when a member can both hit and earn like a cash cow, but if they simply provide a high level of earnings that's still a great addition to a family and should always be treated as such. A family needs a little of everything to function. You need earners to bring in the cash, hitters to protect the family, jesters to entertain, serious folk to organise and crack the whip when needed and a little of everything from every possible role. It's only when we can get these people interacting as one and all working towards the same goals that a family truly flourishes. 

My bloodline remembers when they were more important. It was earners that kept hitters protected.

I'd suggest your bloodline is remembering specific situations and individual families so.

There has never been a time when the income from earners has been more important in this thing of ours. We have new arrangements with the unions behind bodyguards which mean we have never had the ability to have more protections, technological advances mean we can fortify our buildings like never before and the various options open to us now have never allowed for a greater degree of freedom in how we leverage our wealth to earn more. 

Do hitters get all the glory?

It depends on what they manage to achieve. Personally, I view even the most successful hitters as just another member of the family doing their part for the overall good of the family. No more, no less. A family without hitters is a sitting duck just waiting to be plucked. Without a hitsquad that can defend the family, it will die. It doesn't matter how many fantastic earners they might have, they won't be able to survive. In the same way, if a family is full of huge guns but with no decent funds... it will also perish. A family needs both to succeed. It isn't a case of one being more important than the other, they are both vital elements. The reason, if there is one, that successful hitters may get more praise or attention is that it's a harder skill. There's no question about that. Anyone can earn, in fact everyone should including the hitters, but it takes a higher level of skill and dedication to be a 'real' hitter.

Do they get a free pass to requirements that everyone else would follow?

This is entirely down to the leader in question. In the case of every decent leader, the answer will be no. The requirements might alter slightly from member to member or from role to role depending on the needs of a family, but everyone should have requirements and a good leader will ensure they are met. 

They have the same amount of time to make the same amount of money.

In many cases, the active hitters in a family will be the highest earners. So I don't really agree with the point trying to be made. Having said that, they do this in spite of the additional restrictions which are placed on them. They plan flight paths based purely on target locations, not on prices. This impacts earnings. They spend large amounts on either ranges (if early in their career) or on background information for potential targets (later in their career - MIAs). These are significant investments that will drop their potential earnings, yet still they often come out at the top of earning tables due purely to their hard work and dedication. 

In many cases, a leader may also instruct them to hold back on tributes in order to increase their personal protection. This will be on a family by family case or even a member by member one, but it commonly does (and correctly so) happen. It's vital for a family to remain safe that its hitsquad is able to withstand a small attack. If it's a full on wave from an entire city anyone or everyone may struggle, but it's important that they have as much protection as they can manage so that a half assed attempt won't be successful.

Are the standards slipping because expectations have changed?

In my opinion, standards aren't slipping. So I struggle to answer that one. Perhaps our experiences are just different.

Do people no longer believe that members can reach a set of standards? Is this due to lack of training or lack of interest?

Again, I don't agree with the initial premise of the arguments so struggle to give an answer other than "No".

Built2Destroy: New or old, you are welcome to have an opinion on the topic whether it's on one or two of the questions. Thank you for your time.

JamesDarmody: I understand your point of view. I am not saying hitters or earners are better than the other. In fact, a family needs both. My point was specifically should one group feel like they are less to their crewleader than another? In my opinion, no. If you don't have earners and solely have to rely on hitters getting their own money, what would happen then?

So back to your question. A proper earner will earn regardless unless they are made to feel like shit but even then they would still earn until they die or choose to die. Now in return, if a family sets a standard set of requirements for all members, everyone should be following that, no?

AngelaDarmody: I am merely curious how others view standards in this thing of ours. This discussion is not an airing of information to my own city or crewleader. If this is not how you intended your statement I apologize but I thought I should clear that little tidbit up. It's merely a topic of conversation.

You have stated a problem. An earner is just as capable of being a good part of the family and more than just a "drug mule". Is it not possible to be both depending on how much you pay attention to the drug prices when you fly for those hits? I think it's possible. As stated previously both groups are needed in a family.

My comments about hitters was not meant as a direct comment to hitters in any particular family. Not my own and not my city. It was merely a group assessment. But the standards in such have been shown to have dropped during the times with certain events. I won't presume to know every small detail about every family, or city. Just as an outsider's point of view.

You do raise some good points but I fear you may be making this out to be like I am attacking our city and that is not the case. I am not attacking any city or family with my questions and curiosity.

Alexander: Thank you for participating in this discussion. It is indeed refreshing to see a crewleader step out with their  own thoughts of how they run things. I know you did not need to and are not required to so I appreciate your time.

Ganked4: Can I ask why you think standards have always been low? You may be right that it was covered by a quicker turnover then we see at this time. I think to some degree we had higher standards at one point and some (not all) have slipped.

ratSkcoR: Loyalty and trust. I have seen those that were the most trusted turn on their leaders. As most everyone will have seen. Can you really truly trust people?

You are right though about all the money floating around. Do you think that is because of trades with the Gods and less and less proper earners? Or do earners still exist?

anoxia: Some very good points. I will reiterate a question I previously asked because I am truly curious of your response. If a family sets a requirement that everyone should meet, would you then expect everyone should meet it regardless of their talents? For instance, lets use one that isn't seen as much. Street posting. Previously my bloodline had a family that it was a set in stone requirement that everyone had to meet. Everyone did if they wanted to get to Made Man. Don't get me wrong I don't ever want to see people forced to the streets because I think it would only bring out garbage so someone could get their rank. I like that people want to be here but for example sake this is one that crossed my mind. Should everyone, hitter or earner, newb or experienced have to meet this standard to get their rank?

Personally, if it's a standard the crewleader wants and expects of all members then I would say yes. What would you say?

Satanta: You may be right. I may have been thinking of particular past families and situations. It is hard not to when branching out on a particular subject.

You have many good points. I am in full agreement with the hitters and earners being important in a family. Although couldn't have said it better than yourself.

I do believe our experiences will differ. Everyone won't always be in the same situations or conversations surely but even then how things are perceived are different from everyone else s. That being said, standards may be changing along with expectations? Would that be a fair question? I know nothing can stay permanently and time will always change people, thoughts and opinions on past events, situations or even conversations.

Side note: Of course I am not pushing that all things have slipped. Maybe some have or some haven't. Maybe my perceptions are different from other people's. As Satanta has pointed out not everyone can experience all of the exact same things. I am curious on other people's thoughts based off their own experience. This is not a bashing just a discussion.

I do not see standards slipping at all.

I think the views on morals and standards are much like views on the streets and its activity... the grass is always greener, rose tinted glasses, only fond memories sticking in the mind and whatever other cliché you can come up with. An ancestor in your bloodline had a certain era when they felt respect was abundant and all was right with the world... welll, sorry to burst your bubble's but that is how some people feel right now.

Standards are pretty much the same now as they have always been, I actually think there has been an improvement in recent times with more people showing us publicly what they're made of.

Nothing wrong with a difference of opinion Countdown. Maybe my experiences have shaded my thoughts around this subject. Although I don't really think for myself it's a matter of respect. I don't feel disrespected in the least by anyone at this precise moment or when I originally thought of this thread.

I was more curious on standards in general. Although I seem to have centralized it on the hitter versus earners due to a recent conversation.

I can appreciate that people may think standards are or aren't slipping. Some may choose to believe they change along with the change of other aspects. It's perfectly reasonable. I think some have changed. Some may have slipped in my eyes. Some remain the same or as you say have improved.

Difference of opinion is what makes the world go round after all. We can't all be the same or it would get boring.

Standards have always been low. To proceed in any family since time began you pretty much just had to survive and be loyal; the difficulty was in the surviving. Now that everyone survives, those low standards are exposed and people who cannot string sentences together are given promotions far beyond their ability. I don't blame the leaders for this, what choice do they have after all? How long can you really justify holding someone back just because they aren't the quickest? Families last for months, sometimes years, even just from a self-interest perspective it is wise to promote the undeserving alongside the deserving. 

I don't really think standards are any lower in the main, other than perhaps the standard of leadership. The requirements that needed to be met before a candidate would be considered for leadership used to be much more expansive than they are now. Currently, and for the recent past to be honest, someone needs only to hold the rank and have the nod from a city leader and it is settled. Not my cup of tea but can't fault the realism of it.

Tinkerbell: Yes i think everyone should have to meet the goals, however they don't always do, especially when working with friends or have a powerful bloodline. Using street posting as an example, I admit, when anoxia came back to these streets, I didnt post, (its taken the RP competition to get me to want to come back to these streets.) I joined an old friends family and almost expected to get made, and I did with minimal effort. However there were no set rules about street posting, something (which i can agree with you on) that i used to regularly see as a part of setting the standard, which is not used as othen anymore. Could this possibly be one of the reasons there has been a lapse in street activity? I think it could contribute.

Of course i followed the other rules as per usual, but i had no need to prove myself and trustworthy and loyal, as this was already established, so i didn't feel the need to try hard, and i still got my promotion. Some may say it made me a slacker, but at least they knew i was reliable when needed most. (I would also like to note i am not talking about my current CL, incase anyone takes this the wrong way)

As for setting goals for newbs, i think it is most important for them to comply by all the rules, this is the only way they can prove themselves to be a loyal and vital member of the family, if a new player doesn't want to follow the rules set by the CL, why should the CL let them rank up? If they are happy not being made, and they are just a money maker, however big or small, it is upto the CL to decide whether it is good to have them, boosting the numbers of the crew, or if they may actually be more of a hindrance, if they cant be trusted.

I feel boosting numbers also raises another point, are some people only ranked up to make the family appear stronger? At the end of a day a family of made man+ looks better than everyone at Wiseguy. If this does happen (and im sure it does somewhere), this is one of the reasons standards are slipping?

Well, I couldn't hear this exciting conversation going on here thanks to the blaring of the 'Competition Results' accompanied by the thunder of the Gods but now that I have heard all that has gone on, I can't resist chipping in.

In my humble opinion, I don't think there ever were even standards across the board. It all depended on the amount of power or influence your bloodline or in some cases, you yourself, had. For instance, lets compare the FlyingPig bloodline and mine. The former is one that is somehow or the other mentioned in almost every listing of 'Greatest Hitters' or even just 'Greatest Mobsters'. Mine, however, is one of relative obscurity. My bloodline has never really achieved the amount of influence the 'FP' bloodline has and probably never will. As a consequence, FlyingPig could say things right here in the Streets that would get me killed. He could call out people who had more power than him without fear of reprisal because he was backed by almost everyone in power. 

These standards, of course, refer to the Streets and not to the hitter vs earner debate but I believe an analogy can be drawn from them. It doesn't really matter if you're the greatest gun in the planet or if you make 5 million a day for your CL, If he/she decides that someone who can spend 1 hour a day here in our world and then retires to slumber, is more deserving of a promotion than you, well, he/she gets the promo first. 

Now if there are some standards, and leaders decide to let someone slip, well, it's their call and theirs alone. They made the rules, the could very easily break them.

I am tempted to reiterate the old and well worn 'Rank up and do something about it' but I realize that this is an objective discussion and I'll let it lie.

Ganked4, Thank you for expanding a little bit. I can sort of see your point of view better now. I am not sure I completely agree with promoting the undeserving with the deserving. Seems a bit hasty for those that wouldn't put the effort in.

anoxia you raise some good questions and points yourself. I personally do not always venture into the streets. I will read the posts but rarely ever reply. This for me is because I do not believe myself a great public speaker. A short and to the point one maybe. The standards formerly in regards to posting for rank not being a mandatory thing could very well be contributed to the lack of street presence. As I formerly said though I would not like being forced to post for my rank. I do think maybe more people could be encouraged to get involved in conversations in the streets by other methods.

I honestly have no idea how to respond about the Made Man+ thoughts. It has given me food for thought to mull over though. I do think many people tend to join their friends and possibly for the same reasons you have listed from your own personal experience.

Elijah: I do appreciate you letting that comment lie. Although it could be useful if this thread were directed at anyone specific. Just a thought that had occurred and I got curious about from a few conversations that have taken place elsewhere and that I wanted more views on.

It is not my place to question how people are promoted in their own families. I do think you are right where bloodlines are concerned though and it would lead to an entirely different conversation in some respect. But it also brings a question to mind for this conversation. Do you think the powerful bloodlines adhere to the respect factor? I gather that they could say things that some of us couldn't without being killed but do they find a way to say it respectfully? Or do you think they could just come out and say whatever they want?

Well, Tinkerbell, from my limited experience of the world, I think it depends a lot on who you're talking to. Most bloodlines on here aren't loved and respected by everyone. Quite a few maybe held in a higher position by the majority but there will always be someone who doesn't like or respect them. While speaking to them, the aforementioned 'respected' mobster would have to be more careful than while speaking to an old mate of his father's.

For instance, I am fairly sure I could get off with saying stuff to a couple bolds here that would normally merit a large punishment. It is because both me and my bloodline are friends of theirs. That, in my opinion is the crux of the 'Standards' discussion. Everybody is set different standards by different people.