Umbreon thinks about how the strength of one's gun, or the rank they possess have nothing at all to do with whether she respects them. Her respect is garnered by the strength one's brain, or the number of poffins they possess.

A very interesting topic you got here Luger, I'm impressed and it's my pleasure to share my opinion.

"I have recently encountered a man that has ignited a spark of curiosity in my mind. I'm not going to point him out but I'm sure he's going to be one to debate on this topic. The question is, who gets the most respect? Is it the person with the high rank or the person with most body counts?"

In terms of respect in my own opinion, they both deserve fairly.

A man that outranks you simply deserves to be respected in the community we are in, because he works his way out there, sitting to where he is right now, not only that, it also display his achievements mutually to the public, it's a part of Omerta just like Artorem said, it's our code of silence, no one knows who you really are and that includes if the guy has a nuke or none.

In fact some or most of us also get respect through our bloodlines, bloodlines that are already long proven themselves worthy in any task, position or job they were put in and that includes if you got a nuke or none.

Respect can also gain in terms of connections or politics this means a man you know with the most connection or interests it also includes if you got a nuke or none.

And finally a man that has a nuke or a skill in steels simply deserves to be respected, it's not easy to build a nuke for the protection of your own city or family, you need some dedication and love in your profession just like in any job as we know they were the one's to protect our family or city in terms of war, they were the frontliners, even if they know the risks when training their gun.

If we combined and you got every respect in every aspect that I have mentioned above it's no longer respect but AWESOMENESS :).

It all depends on the translation of 'Rank' to be honest.

There are ranks in this world that do not show up on a persons personal details (profile). To briefly touch on another subject a few weeks ago... there are bloodlines in this world that get preferential treatment, I'm not here to argue rightly or wrongly but these people have achieved one of these 'hidden ranks'. The X's, Y's and Z's of this world (we all have our own 'favourites')... if I had to choose to put my faith in someone I didn't know who had 400 notches on their gun, or X/Y/Z who's bloodline's I do know very well and know what they're capable of yet only had 100 kills on their gun I would choose X/Y/Z every time. I'm taking the 'safe bet'. If the 400 notch gun went on to improve their strength without any problems or mishaps after someone clearly getting preferential treatment in front of them, THEN I would consider taking the 'Gun over Rank'.

If, for example I ran a family and I was put in the position of having the cash available to 'IWP' someone then I would choose the 'Rank' every time. If someone can bite their tongue after being turned down despite being in a much stronger position then that would indirectly give them 'Rank' within my family as I know how hard it can be to not get the nod despite your best efforts. Which in turn would give them 'Rank' AND 'Gun', which bumps them up to the top of the list.

Evening Countdown, I seem to get a little confused about your statement regarding buying a crew member a lot of bodyguards. The way I am seeing it is you would firstly give it to someone that ranks higher first, and then give it to someone that didn't complain about it even though they were in a stronger position? Sorry, I just find it hard to grasp what you are saying, I have had a few drinks and my mind is not keeping track.

I believe when it comes to buying someone bodyguards, the decision should be based on a targeted system. In other words, if you know a member will be a big target in the time of war, and people will want to kill him/her quick... Then he/she should have the honour of getting plenty of bodyguards to try and stop this from occurring. Most will find that the people that are targeted quick are ones that have rumours spreading around that informs other families/cities that his/her body count is quite high, making that person be seen as a threat. For that reason alone I find it hard to take into account 'rank' and 'gun' when discussing bodyguard matters. Since the person with the body count 9 times out of ten will be the primary target.

Yes, I would give it to someone who ranks higher first... by 'ranks higher' I mean via the system I use in my head... one example I gave in my previous post showed how a bloodline with a reputation would get preference over someone with a higher body count when it comes to protection levels. A bit of the message may have got lost in translation by using the 'X/Y/Z' references... I was just trying not to name-drop. Yes, if someone didn't complain and continued to not make mistakes then they would be proving themselves to be that bit more worthy. Just because we are in the mafia world doesn't mean we can't respect a cool head. We've seen so many go off the rails over time.

You're absolutely correct, it probably should be based on a targeted system, but it isn't. :)

There have been numerous examples of this, some of which have been publicly discussed at length. Therefore the answer to the original question for me is rank takes precedent over a gun.

I may respect the rank and respect the gun but my respect for an individual is earned by honesty and integrity. If you don't have these qualities my respect is for the superficial attributes one has only.

You're really trying to confuse us all here Countdown.

There has already been a tangential discussion around what was meant by 'rank' when some people used the term to describe what is commonly known as 'position' within this thing of ours. Rank is based on experience and can only come, regardless how highly you may be thought of due to your ancestors and what they might have thought you, with time and hard work. Position is a subjective decision made by others, whether in the case of someone providing you with the authorisation to set up a family or bestowing a role as a hand upon you. A position can also include less obvious or visible roles that would only be known within the family halls and kept within them in honour of omerta. 

Now you're adding in your own personal meaning of the term rank, which has nothing to do with the ranking system within cosa nostra, and is purely how you judge and value a person. I'm not saying you're wrong to do it, I'm just suggesting that you don't refer to this as a 'rank'. We have something in our world that has this title already, so a personal judgement based on factors that a person is free to choose for themselves really should use a different name or title. From what you are saying, it sounds as if you're simply saying that it isn't the size of the gun that you view them on or the (traditional) rank, but a subjective judgement based on other factors. Within those factors, you do seem to be emphasising the history of the bloodline which is something I wouldn't personally feel should be so highly weighted, but I do agree that there are a number of factors that would decide on the value I put on any persons life and that their rank or their gun wouldn't always be at the top of the list.   

I think that as a few others have said, from a philosophical aspect, it really isn't so much about rank or gun; if I see a Don or one of our famed assassins, sure, they're worthy of some common courtesy, but I'm more inclined to respect them based on what comes out of their mouth as opposed to what are two very broad and elastic fields dependent on our state of affairs - it isn't as black and white as others have made it out to be. 
 
Realistically, though? As much as I'm a fan of the pen over the sword, it's almost always going to be preference to the gun.  Younglings of established bloodlines prominent in that field have been wooed, wined and dined far more often than any other group in history, and until that dynamic changes, at the end of the day, it won't really matter whether or not they're good with a pen; they still need the army, and the army usually is privy to the crew's collective riches, and I don't see that landscape altering much.  Sure, a Don is going to get a sizable bit of respect, but if he doesn't have a gun he is almost guaranteed to be held in less esteem (behind closed doors) than his blood-stained peers.  

Honestly Satanta... i couldn't be arsed to think of another name besides 'rank'... and 'position' to me, simply means RH/LH/HSL/etc, so I didn't use that word, plus it's always nice to be confusing! ;p

I am only using the history of a bloodline with certain people, again... not wanting to name drop actual people I can see why you would think I use family history to heavyily weight my decisions. However, there are probably only a handful of people in this category. I just didn't emphasise that was the case.

Concerning what Countdown said, Mr. Sat: Bloodline can be a factor... However, we can all admit there are people who are worse off because of their bloodline. It is a means to knowing how someone will act. Really, I would only look at it because I usually can judge loyalty from it. If someone is totally new to the shores, you never know how easily swayed they are. They have no reason to be loyal really. They also get a bad rap because of all the incog/rogues that lie about being new -- But they should still be given opportunity as equally as possible because we all had to start somewhere.

As for rank and status and position, it comes down to respect, and that is something that is earned over time... Perhaps through one person's life... or perhaps through a bloodline. The opposite is always amusing as well.

I must admit i could not simply look at it as rank versus gun, i would have to push further and look what that ranks skills are to compare and their activity or attempts to develop other skills.  As much as a Gun is going to possibly win wars or help maintain discipline i think a whole skill set has to combined to make a family work.  I believe many characteristics make a successful family including the big earners who help pay to bodyguard up these hitters and city leaders, the info people who gather locations for the family to remove threats or legitimate targets and those who pull everything together ofter as the leader or hands.

To generalize this topic cheapens much of the hard work many family members put in which does sometimes go unnoticed in a world where everything is sometimes handed to us on a silver platter.   I will also push this a step further, how often has a family built up guns, and then a leadership has been taken down and these guns have sat and done nothing? do these people then deserve respect for not doing anything as a family falls or just joins another like nothing happened?

It has also been alleged we have had mute leaders, hands and members at stages who many have condemned over the years for their lack of street presence, do we suddenly drop our levels of respect for them, or compare and study how well or how badly they also run their family to see if they are worthy of our respect?

The truth of the matter is for me no one part of there own is more needed or respected if i was looking within my own family, everyone is judged on what they put in or don't put in.  Outside my family i would think similar, a range of skills make business click over and stay secure and each person in what I would describe as a value chain, if one link in the chain falls apart everything does.  Some people bring a total package together commanding many skills if not all and say or do the things others won't and for me that is where the respect, fear or disgust depending how something is put changes for me.