"You have more to live for! You have a family and a crew that are counting on you.."

blink manages to coax to potential suicide victim down off the bridge, slowing motioning him over to where he is standing. That's his good bit for the day, as the saved man walks closer blink takes out his gun. BANG. The man falls dead and blink drags him back to the bridge where he shoves him over the side

I hate suiciders, retirers, those that take the easy life out. Luckily i managed to get to this bitch in time before he took his own life. I had a quick look in the obituary recently and counted about 35 suicides or people that think you can retire this life in the last 7 days. 35?! That's 35 ways you could have helped your family one last time before fucking off but you were too selfish and lazy to give them that one parting gift to the hit squad.

I don't care who you are or who you were. You think people are going to care because you decided to make a point by retiring? Sure you can get back at your old boss one more time by suiciding because he didn't give you the next promotion, but then all you're doing is confirming that the boss had made the right call..you're too immature and can't handle it. 

So for anyone thinking of ending their own life in the near future here's a tip. Contact your boss and let him get one more notch on his belt to help him keep the rest of the family safe that you obviously don't give a shit about. Suicide is wrong and retiring is just attention seeking suicide. 

"I dont entirely agree with you Blink" Kattan Says after approaching blink toss his recent helpless over the bridge.

"How selfish can one be, that all they care is about their gun and not about the person who is loosing his life. I am not a great fan of suicides myself. But I would not want some one to stop suiciding just so I could kill them myself. That is just plain selfish in my opinion." 

"The best thing to do would be to talk them out of taking their life forever and address the reason why they wanted to commit suicide on the first place... I hope you agree. It is better to have that person on your side in the time of need rather than not have that person at all."

"That said, if there was no other alternative but to suicide, then it must be that persons choice. It is sad that that person is loosing their life, it better be on their terms."

"That is just my opinion." 

I think I'm with Blink on this one to a certain extent. I whole-heartedly despise suicide and agree with the point that for the majority, it is nothing more than attention seeking at best.

But somehow in the same breath, I think if I were in some of these mobsters' position there would be a temptation to... say if I disliked Subtle to the point that I didn't want to be in his family anymore, we'd had a heated disagreement and what he'd said had struck a bad chord with me. What options do I have? I can suck it up, go on with life and stand by my oath(1). I could throw my toys out of the pram, get pissy and start throwing my weight around with the use of my gun(2). Or... I could avoid the loss of other people's lives, not have to be at the beckon call of someone I dislike and know that my daughter is free to join whoever she pleases(3).

The 3rd option is probably the one a lot would choose, some would choose option 2 and even less would choose option 1. I've yet to be in this position so I have no idea how I would react.

All that being said, unless it is the above example, suicide just isn't an option for me (not that I'd definitely choose that option anyway). It is nothing more than a waste of time and effort on everyone's part. Something that should be avoided at all costs.

Very well put Orithyia.

There is many things to consider when talking about suicide and retire. If a member is totally upset and does not like the leader at all I can say I would rather see him retire or suicide then go on a rouge binge and put everyone's life at stake. That is a bit more selfish.

I live by death before dishonor and if killing them selves before they dishonored their family then in a way that shows honor. And in a way it also show dishonor by leaving I do realize. It is a double edged sword indeed.

A well dressed man in a dark suit and a hood overhears the conversation and decides to join in.

This is an interesting topic you've stumbled upon, Blink, but I tend to agree with you myself.  There is nothing but great dishonor and disrespect associated with suiciding and retiring, I believe.  Not only are you showing a lack of respect for your family who was gracious enough to give you a home, support, and protection throughout the darkest of times.  You are also showing a lack of respect for your own personal lineage.  So I agree, if you're going to do it at least find some use to your shameful exit from this dear world.

Meh. I don't necessarily agree with the sentiments expressed here... Sure suicide is a shameful way to leave this world of ours... However, maybe if you saw the world through the eyes of the person who finally pulled the trigger to end their own life, maybe you will understand but nah, you're too busy making sweeping statements about how everyone who ever committed suicide is being a little bitch. I think each suicide should be viewed individually. 

If someone shoots himself/herself because they were not given a promotion. Sure, immature to the core. However, How do you know that is the only reason for every suicide? Maybe the Boss they were working for was being specially abusive, insulting or maybe aforementioned Boss was just too much of a wimp for them to follow... Who knows? Do you? I didn't think so. As for giving their CL a humongous and immensely valuable +1(with the chance of Wack Back, never forget the dreaded 1%)... well, if I was dissatisfied with the way Cyrus runs the show... I wouldn't be overly concerned if his gun got stronger.  

As for people retiring.... Well, there is a reason they are allowed to retire by the Gods. It's because they earned it. Do you think Whatsername was a lazy and selfish person for retiring when she did..? She was the last woman standing on her side after a huge war.A VWP Boss was the last person standing in a war with the largest number of 'capped' mobsters I have ever seen. So if you think she was either lazy or selfish.. I would assume you to be either retarded or just insanely stubborn. Also, these people have done their time. They have paid their dues. They have made it. They are allowed to say 'This is enough.' and to retire from this life of crime. Maybe you are just too caught up in your vision of the 'perfect' mobster to see it...

Philli walks onto the same bridge, and stands listening to commentary on suicide.

"vladimir summed up retiring correctly dead on. If you've been a round a long time, achieved many things, and your at the top of the heap. well, be there a while, and life can get boring. so you choose to not die, but to retire. You've done what very few mafioso can say they've done. you've "won". hit the pinnicle, and now your going to enjoy the fruits of your labor, and give younger heads the shot at the stress."

There is no such thing as a perfect mobster, as we are all... mobsters. That's one flaw we all have Vladimir and nobody mentioned anything about there being one.

I'll put your slightly aggressive tone down to passion on the subject as it seems you had a bone to pick here. Whatsername did what is expected, she carried on shooting until there was nobody else left. When the mobsters you consider your bosses (this could be your CL or the general upper structure of a city, or even all the Made+ of your city) have passed on, THEN you have your choice. Until then you took an oath and you should stick by it. That is quite a common code of our world and has been for many, many years. When a mobster joins  afamily and sometimes before becoming Made they have to swear an oath, a lot of the time that oath binds your life to your bosses. So until they have passed, you shouldn't really have a say on whether you live or die. Just because the Gods give us the option does not mean it is your own choice to use it... much like the rules in most HQ's on shooting. You use the option when and where you are allowed to.

Some of your speech (generally the latter part of the 2nd paragraph) comes across with a sarcastic tone and to me suggests that you don't care much for the mob way of life or the general code/rules we have lived by for a long time.

Or maybe I'm just too caught up in my view of a 'perfect mobster' to know what I'm talking about. =)

Well... sure if you consider being a mobster a flaw, then we are all flawed, Orithyia.

As for the aggression I supposedly showed, well I really don't have a bone to pick with this topic and nor did I think I was aggressive with my words. Anyway, different people, different standards. Moving on.

When the mobsters you consider your bosses (this could be your CL or the general upper structure of a city, or even all the Made+ of your city) have passed on, THEN you have your choice.

Question. What if I considered Kratos, who as you can all see is my associate, as my Boss and if were to die sometime soon.... would I be justified in either retiring or shooting myself? 

Also, moving on to the well worn rhetoric of 'You took an oath.'. Well most of us seem to think our leaders are above reproach and that no matter what they do, the role of a crew member is to just suck it all up and just keep doing something they feel goes against their very grain and to be brutally honest, I think that is a load of bullshit. Again, I don't intend to come across as aggressive or offensive, I am just calling it as I see it. I swore an oath to my leader. Sure. Does that mean I have to work for someone who I don't think is worthy of my support and unwavering loyalty? It's a leaders responsibility to earn that trust from his/her members and if you don't.... well it is partially the leader's fault. We call ourselves 'Family' for a reason. 

As for not caring for the mob way of life, believe me, I do care about it. I just don't think this entire 'Give your life up so that a Boss you don't like can get stronger by killing you' philosophy is an actual part of the 'mob' life. We are, as you so astutely pointed out in your opening line, mobsters. We are cold-blooded, business minded men and women. At least we are supposed to be. So, when a particular person, infinitely more powerful than you in this world forces me to leave this world,once and for all, do you actually expect me to go to him/her on bent knee and beg for a bullet in my head. Nah, I don't think I'm upto that. I honestly don't. Maybe it's all that aggression you spoke of. Of course, I would never contemplate suicide... so there is no need for anyone to worry about me going 'I can't do this anymore... BOOM!' 

I think a lot of angles need to be considered, and quite a bit of them have already been covered. You obviously have the whiny ones, the upset ones, the ones that have lost interest. And that in part is due to lack of leadership, had their leader kept them motivated and happy none would be attending a funeral. 

Now Vladimir spoke about Whatsername. And that must be considered as well, you also have to consider the time. I mean look at end game God Fathers that retired. They didn't leave because they didn't have the drive to be good Mafioso, it was just their time to walk away...as they saw fit. Does that mean it was dishonorable? Of course not, you don't tell a man on top he's dishonorable walking away...he worked hard for it. He has earned the right to do what he wants. 

As far as the issue of +1. Well I remember once in my time here, there was a CL and all he did honestly was harvest +1's. He would whore the world, charge them ridiculous amounts of taxes and shoot them at the end. Is that honorable? Someone that has lost all drive cause his CL sucked the life out of them...and they wanted a parting gift too. Some red meat on top! 

So as I said, every situation is different. Its not really a straight line answer. If someone retired/suicided that means there is something underlying wrong there....in that whole situation. I would say dont worry about an honorable kill/death at that point, worry about whats really wrong. And of course that doesn't apply to warriors that take the high road or end game God Fathers that have nothing left to achieve...and nothing but blue sky's and margaritaville to look forward to!