I have just returned from my normal vacation. As usual, I'll drop by my family and see how they're doing but when I arrived at our HQ, I felt something was wrong. When I have just stepped out of the cab, my mouth then opened wide in terror. Our base have been attacked, it has been left in ruins. Nothing was left intact. I didn't see my comrades too. I then ran hurriedly to the cemetery and found a grave. The grave had a beautifully carved name on it.

                                                         R.I.P Visicaro

I then tried to stop myself from crying but I failed. After a few minutes,I wiped my tears and walked away. I decided that I would live, fight and survive in memory of my fallen comrades.

'Hi there sir, Visicaro was killed due to his right hand women rogue killing another right hand man which means Visicaro wasn't a capable leader in that regard. Godfather Chaos and his district uppers decided that they would remove him and some of his hitters that would be threats to the districts future.'

Teemo smiles the way he always does

'This is what we call a take down in this world of ours, they happen and they'll continue to happen.'

Visicaro wasn't a capable leader in that regard. Godfather Chaos and his district uppers decided that they would remove him and some of his hitters that would be threats to the districts future.'

I have to say I disagree there. Visicaro was a capable leader. There hasn't been any claim to the contrary. However, he is held accountable for the actions of his Right Hand just like all leaders are, and was punished by death. Not something that anyone would consider strange at all, but certainly it doesn't mean he wasn't a capable leader.

Further to that, the people removed afterwards were not hitters. They were close family relatives that were believed could react to the death of Visicaro. The outcome is the same, but its not fair to them to dress things up as though they were a danger, the truth is they weren't but caution is always the best route to take in this thing of ours so its understandable that ChaosSpike ordered their deaths along with Visicaros.

I liked Visicaro, he was very easy to talk to and made himself very presentable to the public and to our district (when I was over there).

However, your statement irks me slightly Alabama. How could he have been a very capable leader if the person he trusted most was a complete idiot? This is the person that Visicaro told us "you can trust them, they are capable and wont do anything silly" by making them RH.

You can't have it both ways really, he can't be capable if he couldn't control his own RH. If Kattan were to go nuts in the way WideAwake did, then I am not a capable leader, as I have chosen him to represent me, my family and to an extent our district.

Menoth hears the discussion going on waits for a moment before stepping forward.

I don't believe I ever heard Chaos state that Visicaro or his members were a danger and that was why they were removed. People can believe whatever they like, but actions were taken by Visicaro's RHM that were inexcusable. This wasn't the only reason he was removed but just another part of a whole that made Chaos's mind up in taking this action.

Chaos cleaned house after weighing pros and cons, he did what he felt was the best course of action and that's all you can ask a Godfather to do in regards to their city.

Orithyia I'd have to disagree with you. Making a single judgment error does not differentiate between capable and incapable because honestly no single person can be right all the time. So he made a bad choice of RH. I've read countless tales of high ranking members of this place going against the wishes of their Crew Leader including many RHs and upper structures. 

What you are suggesting is that a leader is in complete control of everyone in his or her crew at any given time, but this is realistically impossible. Each member has their own will and own mind and therefore can never be under complete control. If someone is going to act out they are going to act out. It was unfortunate that Visicaro's RH was the one who decided to be an idiot and it was Visicaro who paid the price. 

Even though no one can be right all of the time, I think there are different degrees of judgement error. If a goomba would take a shot at another family member, does that reflect poorly on the crewleader? Yes, but most would say that the leader can't control everyone all of the time, and said leader would need to keep a closer eye on the members of that family to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Would a right hand acting out against the will of the family reflect poorly on the leader? Yes, and it should. That's a significant judgement error, especially because that person holds the family's lives in his or her hands. Choosing your upper structure is not a casual decision to make.

Others have said that incident was the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak, but even if this was the first occurrence, I would have reservations about the leadership abilities of a crewleader after that. That's not saying I would want to see the leader step down from his or her position for that one thing. But, if you can't trust that the second-in-command of a family knows how to behave, what about the rest of the family?

So Toberius, even though I see the point you are making, I tend to agree more with Orithya's viewpoint. It's embarrassing to say the least for that to happen, and whoever find themselves in that position really need to think of a better criteria to choose their upper structure to prevent unfortunate incidents like this one was from happening.

No Toberius... I am not suggesting that a leader is in complete control of their family. I'm not sure where you've plucked that from as I even specifically named Visicaro's RH, WideAwake.

Your RH represents YOU. Anyone who I choose to be my RH, it is because they have my full trust. Should they break that trust and harm another family, then I have failed and should be shot. If they harm my family, then I have failed and should be shot.

When you vouch for someone in THIS world to the extent that they are part of the controlling element of a family, then you have to be 110% sure that they won't fuck up. You are basically handing over the lives of everyone in your family to that person because if they fuck up... it's going to be frowned upon by many more mobsters than if a random gangster or goomba fucked up.

It's not wrong to hold yourself or others to high standards, in fact for a long time I feel it has been somewhat lacking.

=/

As a leader, your RH IS you. Your choice of RH is the most important choice you can make as a leader. THE most important choice.

Your RH's actions reflect on you. If your RH goes rogue and starts shooting people from other families, then that's on you. And you need to be taken out because, clearly, you've lost control as a leader. 

Whether or not Visicaro was a "good guy" or not, he'd lost control as a leader and needed to be taken out to prevent even more situations like that from happening.

"Hmm. Very interesting discussion we have going on here. Some of it, I agree hands down with... Others, I don't. Yes, your RH should be the most trustworthy and loyal person to you and your family. However, it's all whether you can get the people in there you want or not. If you can't have your first selection, you move onto someone that you think might be able to feel that void. Finding the perfect suitable person for that position, in today's world, is a bit harder to judge in my eyes. I know many people will have their various opinions on this, that's just mine.

Do I believe Visicaro wasn't capable of running a family? Certainly not. He just put his trust into wrong hands, misjudged whom he would be working with, and decided to give them a chance regardless of their past. If anything, this was WideAwake's chance to show those around them that they could do things correctly. Instead, their actions led to the death of the crewleader. After something like this happens you have to ask yourself 'are they capable to not let this happen again', or 'can we let this slide'. Obviously they felt they couldn't let this course of action slide.

Nothing wrong with that.

Everyone makes mistakes, Visicaro just happened to be the one to have the limelight on him after this one. Like others have said, this sort of thing has happened before. Maybe to not such a manipulated degree, but it's happened. However, I am a firm believer that there must have been a lot that came with Visicaro or he wouldn't have been given the chance for run his own crew. He was given a chance, just like he gave his RH a chance.

To just judge Viscaro from his RHM, I can't do that. I think there is a lot more that comes with him, deeper as a person. I don't think he wasn't fit to do anything. However, I do understand the reasons of removing him. Everything your family does, reflects you... Good and bad. Can you stop every mistake from ever happening? No, I can tell you firsthand on that. Take measures to cut them down and keep them to a minimum? Yep."

I have to disagree Timon. If you can't get the people you want in, then you go in on your knees to the person who has granted you the next bold suit and politely refusing the offer on the basis that you can't get the man/woman you trust the most to go with you. Then you promise them that if they could perhaps 'call in a favour' you will forever be in debt to them.

He's on vacation until tomorrow but if I could not have got my RHM, PsychoPaul to setup with me I would have tried to call a meeting between myself, Subtle, PsychoPaul and his boss to see if anything could be worked out. If we had failed to convince his boss to let him go then in my eyes I would have had to turn the offer of being bold down. Sometimes, it's not just about being in a bold suit.

The most trusted you surround yourself with have to be your FIRST choices, or you pull the plug.

Momma always used to say... 'If it can't be done right, don't do it at all'.

Since i have come to these shores, i have been offered various positions, or various routes out of my crew.  I have of course swept them aside due to the family i joined.   Some of these jobs were hands within and outside my city.  Now it is hard to build a crew from scratch and build a trusted upper structure and over the years have seen even the most trusted member screw up or speak too far out of line that is a cause for concern.  If you can't get a handful of people you trust, i wouldn't think of setting up.

The truth is what we recruit train, and what people grow into changes with time, other activities and the person hiding underneath in some cases, just waiting for that time for notoriety.  Though we can't control everything someone does, we try and limit as much as possible what we can.  I believe as others said, what a hand does is more significant then a new associate why? the hand was placed by the leader, the hand is a person you allegedly trust and the hand is what people see as the family head when a leader isn't around.  If a rh screws up should a family die, well depends on the level of screw up as even the nicest person in the world can have their own agenda.

I have to say I agree fully with Orithyia.

You can move down the list on certain other positions, even LHM. But your Right Hand? The one who's you in every single respect both within and without the crew?

If you can't get the person you KNOW you want, you KNOW you can trust, you KNOW won't screw you over....

Then you turn down the offer. You make whatever deal has to be made to get that person, and if there's just no way it can be done, you say "Thank you, but I have to decline". 

Simple as that.

Not that I am in the know of who was or wasn't the first choice for the RH position but from the little bit of knowledge I do have, WA knew they were taking the spot way in advance. They had come to me (WA was in my crew at the time) and informed me that they were offered a chance to help SS grow and wanted me to give the nod. I of course let that happen because I am all for people getting the chance to shine and especially in favor of seeing SS stand tall.

I also agree that your RH is a decision that should not be taken lightly. They are a direct reflection of you and how you do business. I would be perfectly content with giving someone the chance to hold other positions in the family to help them grow and learn but I would never, ever give someone as much power the RH gets without knowing I could trust and depend on them 100%.

Think I am with Orithyia and Claptrap on this one.