Another thing that gives me a smirk, is experience of people being a crew leader doesn't mean they are any good at it.  My blood line has worked with some people who have been leaders and godfather's in their bloodline on multiple occasions yet still can't organize a war effort, the defense of a family or in some case the simplicities of pulling a city together for an hitters sheet(something hitters once did for themselves) and this was on more than one occasion in the past, some of the basics of being in charge.

Sadie thought long and hard before weighing in on the subject, a tiny furrow showing in her brow when she thought really hard on something.

I've done a bit of reading since I came back, from my own bloodline's journals, and kept my ear to the street some as well. I know at the moment my words may not have much weight to them, but I will put my 2 cents out there for people to see.

I can see right away that there has been an influx of population in this thing of ours, but sadly I am also seeing a general "here we go again" attitude. Not much has changed. Most of the decisions are still made in the coffee shops, or in private conversations among piers.

Apathy seems to be the new gung-ho. The tiny bit of freshness and new ideas that is much needed gets snuffed out before they have barely built their forts. The powers that be try to breath new life into this thing of ours, and many act like spoiled children.

"Here you go kids! Ice Cream! For everyone!"             

"Awww, what the fuck is this? We want sprinkles!"

The same people that are crying for change, are refusing to let it happen. I do realize this is a blanket statement, and I certainly do not include everyone, but even those that are not refusing change, are just waiting for it to happen, rather than get knee-deep and do something about it.

I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes here, well, on the other hand, maybe that is exactly what is needed. In the mean time, I will "rank up and do something about it". Again.

Thank you all for listening.

Sadie smiles sweetly, then slips back into the shadows to listen once more.

I'd like to know what the "common folk" can do to initiate change? Complain and suggest, that's it and often times they're hand in hand.

We all know that rank means jack shit now, it's not opinions that show this but rather actions. "Rank up and do something about it" is just people telling you to shut the fuck up and that shit will never change.

To rest on one's laurels: to stop trying because one is satisfied with one's past achievements. Despite our success, this is no time to rest on our laurels.

And, yes, it has been proven that with enough tenacity, you can "rank up and do something about it".

If you are not part of the solution, you become part of the problem.

I say this with all due respect, of course.

~smiles sweetly and starts checking pockets in the crowd~

Well,Sadface.... I don't think anybody has stopped trying. If they have, they would just be sitting back and going 'Meh, I ain't even gonna talk about this'. Barqs hasn't given up, and I can understand where he is coming from. There are very few possible avenues to bring about change and vibrancy in this world.... 

     The only thing we can do is hope that something changes. Hope that either a city is leveled or a city is added. It's like we as the Majority together have the power to change things but we still have to get the Minorities "okay" to do it.

Who said change was inevitable?

It's not about an occasional once in a blue moon sighting, it's about the overall mindset of this ass backwards place live in. We have a rather fresh example of the mindset most people are in.

McLuvin I love how you left out the part where you showed up to my door naked, multiple times, holding a gimp suit in your hand. Of course I'm going to refuse your attempts over and over again ha! If you show up to my place clothed for once, then maaaaybe I'll feel comfortable enough to open my door.

Allllllright, lets take our minds off this debate of progress because I believe it's misleading. Progress happens every day whether it's a week or three-hundred days after a colossal war. I don't think Sammy's speech was truly about progress. I really think it was about removing our community from the state of stagnancy they we find ourselves in again annnnnnd again annnnnnd again. I'm watching people here blame the crew leaders or the ones who remain in the shadow with a loud voice. But you wanna know something, it's NO ONE's fault. The fault lies with the high count of bodyguards. I really do believe the amount of protection we have today is truly the reason why things become stale so quick.

One could argue that stories and competitions can keep things fresh and exciting but that can only do so much. When your bloodline has been around for some time, you start to see patterns. As a old timer like myself, most of the stories and competitions I see today are the ones I have seen in the past - not exactly the same but different with a slight degree. Don't get me wrong though, they do provide a temporarily relief...but it's like putting a band-aid over a gun shot wound.

So aside from stories and competitions, I'm pretty sure you know where I'm going to next. Blood and controversy.

In my opinion, blood and controversy is what keeps the streets active and alive. Lemme ask you this, did you every step outside your HQ one day and wonder why there was so many people out in the street (OOC: Alot of members online)? Was it because of a story? A competition(maybe)? Or was it because someone big got shot? I think the answer is pretty obvious. When blood is being shed, activity is at its highest and the Streets (OOC: Forums) blow up! The amount of protection we have today makes it really difficult for someone to step up and do something. It takes a loooong period of time for someone to gain enough fire power to make a change, and that's to say nothing happens from start to finish. I feel like if the bodyguard count was decreased immensely, then things would be more exciting, interesting, and tense!

NiNe, I agree with most of what you said but under no circumstances should you open the door for McLuvin dressed or not. It's just a baaaadddd idea!

While I think the high number of bodyguards DO play a part in the stagnancy around here, I believe there are other contributing factors. I will add before I go on that the bodyguard limit was adjusted after the war and some guns were as well. The number of bodyguards is excessive even now though.

I believe many of these old souls fearing death is also a part of the stagnancy. They have no desire to start over and see all of their hard work (or maybe not so hard work) erased with the single shot of a bullet. I also believe their is a huge imbalance between the cities which leads to the big dog being nearly untouchable. There was a time when the little guys could band together to bring about change but with the huge imbalance in place that is nearly impossible.

When districts started, there was an implication that there would be wars between the districts for districts. Instead of this being family battles for districts (which is what I believed the idea behind districts were) we find Durden crews populating new districts and fights ensuing to take it over. Frankly, I would have liked to see a limit placed on the number of districts and the number of families each district could have. The opportunity to discover and conquer new lands by cities that reached a particular limit (new cities) rather than new districts would have been a nice touch.

Blood and controversy. lol Yes, this does add to the excitement and inevitably interest. Without it we become a cog stuck in the machine.

To the original question though. Have we progressed? We have progressed. In my opinion, it is the direction of progression that went wrong. I don't place the blame for that on anyone. It was the inevitable evolution predetermined by the Gods that have us where we are. There is a good portion of the progress we can make here that is out of our hands. First and foremost, the ability to discover new lands. Go West they Say!

I think, first of all, there is a problem with taking things too literally. When somebody, or a group of somebodies, precipitates wholesale change using the age old method of 'Let's fucking kill everyone' there is a natural tendency to put out the propaganda of claiming it to be a move forward, or a climb up the ladder, or measurably 'better' in some sort of way.

This entire proposal rests upon the assumption of 'With us in charge, things will be better' by the persons precipitating the change; so aren't these things just a power grab with the propaganda machine fired up for good measure? I'd say so. I'd also say I don't really have a problem with that; although it does get rather tiresome when a conflict is painted in thoroughly juvenile and childish 'good v evil' terms, as if we aren't some sort of criminals.

Therefore, I think it's a little bit naive to suggest that new leaders are going to usher in some sort of revolution; when a takedown occurs in the form of someone 'rising up' and establishing themselves as the top dog, 99% of the time it is down to them wanting to be the top dog and the rest is window dressing.

That said, I think the men and women at the top have been put in a very difficult situation by City Hall. This isn't a criticism of City Hall, just a statement of fact; I've worked with them closely in the Bronx as people will know, and I know first hand how hard they work. However, the introductions of policing initiatives to force organised crime into operating on a district by district basis when our cities' infrastructures aren't ready for it puts everyone in a very difficult situation

If we had a meeting of the corporate structure in Dunder Mifflin and Solastalgia said he wanted to bring in a new rule for the North Side tat pickpocketing was entirely banned, that should be his prerogative because it's his district. Unfortunately, much as he may want to do this, he physically cannot. It would be impossible to tell which district the pickpocket was committed in unless the victim could take a photograph the second it was committed! The District Godfather, then, is faced with the option of either adopting totally unworkable district-leve rules which are not enforceable and thus lose face whenever an instance occurs; or he simply takes on the wider 'standard' City rules as his own.

To the outsider, this then makes districts look entirely homogenised and as if they are definitively one organisation. I can tell you from personal experience that this is not the case; at least not in Chicago, though I can't speak for other cities. There are various blocs, there is naturally regular discourse between the districts to promote a harmonious city environment, but ultimately every district in Chicago is an autonomous outfit. This is not to say that we are not answerable to each other because, naturally, accountability to your peers is a key principle in Our Thing. However, just to reiterate this once again, that does not equate to each city being one distinct organisation.

This is how it is perceived, though, because it is staggeringly difficult for a district to display its independence and individuality because of how our fair Cities are currently laid out.

I believe many of these old souls fearing death is also a part of the stagnancy. They have no desire to start over and see all of their hard work (or maybe not so hard work) erased with the single shot of a bullet. I also believe their is a huge imbalance between the cities which leads to the big dog being nearly untouchable. There was a time when the little guys could band together to bring about change but with the huge imbalance in place that is nearly impossible.

The first part of this statement is true. People value their lives. The second part is not. My line is too young to know of times where banding together for little guys was easier, but while I'm sure that's true I also think change is far more possible in modern times than I often hear expressed. It may just require a different view.

First off, I look like a Greek God(not Dionysus) when I'm naked, you should be glad that I blessed you with that divine vision.

Secondly, From what I can see, these are the opinions that I can notice:

1. Progress is stifled because the same people are getting back into power.

2. Progress happens when wars happen.

3.City hall is trying to make all the cities look the same and this is stifling progress and individuality.

Have I got it right? 

I think a 4th part is people just go through the rhythyms again, many people are involved in a limited aspect of this society, earning and thats simply it.  They do not involve themselves with the coffeshops, streets etc.   They even if asked to be involved with family just plod along as long as their ranking they are happy and as long as they do the basic minimum are fine.  They don't kick up feedback, ideas, etc as either not that bothered due to their activity or feel is not their place.

Well, I guess I did miss that bit... thank you for pointing it out, BTSP.

Well, now that's got me thinking, which by itself is a rare enough occasion, but anyway... why do such a large number of people not kick up feedback, ideas etc? Is it from a lack of ambition or a lack of hope for progression or something else entirely? 

Personally, I don't really see any reason whatsoever for not trying to progress oneself in this world. We are all here to make money and to acquire power.... so if one of those can be acquired from just a teeny tiny bit of effort.. why not do it?

They do not involve themselves with the coffeshops, streets etc.

I just wanted to touch on that point a little. Many who know me, are aware that I'm not a massive fan of the Coffeeshops. I don't use them, unless circumstances require me to of course.

But when my bloodline first arrived in these streets, I dare say they may not have stuck around as long if they hadn't been part of such a fantastic family Coffeeshop. In those days almost your entire family, or at least all those of the upper structure and higher ranks, were found in the family room. Friendships were made there much quicker than you would on these very streets.

So despite my current dislike for them (which is another topic for another time), I do feel that there is a great aspect to them which people new to this world should experience and embrace as it may vastly change their experience of life in this thing of ours. It could be the catalyst between plodding along and becoming an integral member.

The biggest problem with the same people at the top for me, is it is caused by the same people getting to the top.  Each time these people get to the top they create a reserve of cash if doing it right, this enables them to get to the top again. and again and each time the limited pool of wealth will rise as can bg up, take advantage of perks, get more contracts so have more ability to change things.

The problem is i can change simple things, i can work my way into a circle, if i had taken up some opportunities instead of staying loyal to jake i could be a crew leader now.  Is it a huge deal to me, no.  I would rather people know i am loyal then willing to abandon them at the first chance of leadership.    As for changing things, part of that is city hall and bg limits etc, part of it is coz most people don't care about change, they think opportunity will come or things will change with time.  The truth is depends what change you want, to see how you judge progress within a family, externally or overall for society.   Look at how much fuss was made for most people making GF, none except NY really with big competition.   This used to be a big thing, now is just expected for some. is like people expect to live to don if they obey the rules at least. 

The truth is leaders don't always know the problem because the crews do not show a problem in their eyes they still make money, they shoot the right people etc.  Leaders often don't know how to lead and in some cases don't even understand how society works.  Joey cesari was a fine example of this in st louis. he would constantly seak info from members as he was clueless on some matters as his leader had failed him in training him, but had a personality that got people to pool together.

See the problem is with sponsors, things should work in a delegation method where each level solves this problem but it doesn't exist in all crew.  A capo bastone of sort watches sponsors, and follows it up to a hand maybe.  The truth is a system to recruit, monitor, evaluate, resolve doesn't exist in all crews new blood or old as people just want asses on seats in many cases even if go ia as is target practice for a hitter.

A leader is not gonna pull anything out of someone who does not want to put anything in, someone who wants to achieve will achieve poor leader or not to a limit, and some will meet in the middle where both are half assed about it.  You don't make pot pourri with manure.  But is like a leader from outside Chicago said to me the other day, most leaders are gutless lazy c*nts and is half the reason we are in this situation, unfortunately thats where city hall, peoples activity and a good leader chooses when is wise to act or re-act.

Mcluvin, is the nature of some people. some people have more drive then others and many know changing one family won't change much outside that.  I will be honest like alabama if my family was not intertwined by others through the coffee shops my family would be long gone too.

I don't think at any time in the recent history of Mafia has anyone ever "ranked up and done something about it", because those who wrest control of the crown were already pretty well placed in the first place. The conquerors almost inevitably have to be Godfathers already to succeed and thus part of the problem that they hastily slide onto the ones they are trying to kill. Everyone is better than what came before, in their opinion, but saying you'll do things differently to how you've always done them and actually doing so are entirely different things.

This era seems remarkably similar to the one before it, which was remarkably similar to the one before that and so on and so forth right the way back to when it became an issue of protection levels vs firepower. Is it any better now? I don't think it is. Is it any worse? No, probably not. Has anything really changed other than the names at the top of the pyramid? Doesn't seem to have done. Are people ever satisfied? Judging from the archives, no. People have never stood back and gone "wow we're doing everything so right, it is great here right now" and they probably never will. We love to complain and the only thing we love more than complaining is saying what we're going to do to make things better but never actually doing them.

Then again, Jack Carter is a Godfather now and he is a mafia paragon, so I take it all back. It is so great right now.