He has contributed to the Streets reasonably well,

REASONABLY well? I'd wager at least 90% of the population haven't said 50% as much as TeQ's line has in the streets. While his line have done many things well, it's that outspokenness and conviction that sets them apart. Even when my ancestors disagreed with his they always appreciated his having the audacity to speak their minds and stand behind their convictions.

Shuki is not a lurker. He just teleports a lot.

Couldn't agree more with you there Arya.

It was that outspoken nature that first brought the TeQ bloodline to the attention of my ancestors. He doesn't just come out and speak shite like certain other people, but instead comes out with a point in mind and gives his honest thoughts on the matter, even if those thoughts are completley against the grain.

"REASONABLY well? I'd wager at least 90% of the population haven't said 50% as much as TeQ's line has in the streets."

Well, any idiot can take to the Streets to rouse the rabble and make grandiose claims.  Quality is what counts, not quantity.

No disrespect to DS, but he was a rather generic leader - nothing to make him stand out.

Im going to pretend i didnt just read that. Maybe you werent around for the May war or you just werent paying attention. But i digress....

Deadlysin and Phil_Steak were supposed to die in the first wave of that war. Deadlysin was the reason that war lasted nearly a full work week. I was driving to my brothers house when i get a phone call from my brother, who was HUNK at the time, telling me that war had just broken out and SammyGarcini was dead. Nobody on Vision could find Deadlysin, and nearly 97% of the games active user database was dead before Cpt-Harris finally took him out.

Nothing to make him stand out? 

Tony laughs....

I didn't mention PS, but PS did have a distinct nature about him, moreso that DS. I would argue that's why he was killed though. Diemne definitely should be mentioned.

However, as a leader, DS did have "control" and longevity. DS was also respected by a good chunk of the site. He was also feared, but so was PS... Guns that big generally are. However, he was not that talkative at least in public which I guess can take away from him being a legend. 

Back to TeQ, TeQ had distinct character. He was very vocal. He had his own form of "control." He has had powerful guns. People also feared him. However, he never had widespread control for a long period of time. 

Well, any idiot can take to the Streets to rouse the rabble and make grandiose claims.

I honestly cannot believe you said this, kuku, as your bloodline is a shining example of doing precisely that. 

Well, Gohan, in regards to that quote, could we talk about effectiveness of words? Idiots may babble senselessly, but people, like Kuku, have been able to complete some sort of mission by simply rousing and rabbling and making claims. Others just fall flat and look stupid, and no, I'm not trying to build his ego. lol. 

I'm not one for coming to the streets very often, however this topic and subsequent comments are probably the reason why I don't. 

I believe that coming to the streets and making well thought out and relative points of view is fine. What I don't like is people coming the streets for the sake of it, spouting off any old garbage that might get them a few replies for their ego (OOC: Stats) because lets be honest people do it. 

People who criticise others for not coming here often (like DS) have to look at both sides of the coin. He was probably of the same opinion of me, what's the point of coming out here when a lot of the content is non relative or drivel. 

Back to TeQ's bloodline, my honest opinion? May not have agreed with everything he said but at least most of the time it was relevant and interesting. Plus he stood up for what he believed in, even to the Gods. A trait that isn't all that common. 

Nobody on Vision could find Deadlysin,

That's just not true. My grandmother stepped out of the warzone to sing some karaoke and then she could see him just fine.

Well, any idiot can take to the Streets to rouse the rabble and make grandiose claims.  Quality is what counts, not quantity.

Quality is what I'm talking about. Or more specifically the quality in his quantity. TeQ's line never showed up to smoke a cigarette and nod their heads. They spoke. And they did so non-trivially and with commitment. 

Tony_Accardo... I mean no offense to the legacies of both PS or DS but in my mind, neither of them would be among the 'greats!'. My list would probably be: Marietta,Deimne, Roman. That's it. Maybe a honourable mention for Gwarble. 

Mainly because I would tend to agree with Flawed's assessment. I did not see either of them bring anything new to this world. Maybe the rules regarding the setting up of crews in any certain city but beyond that, my blood didn't see anything 'new'. Maybe, it is because as Jack_Carter(Godfather) said, that almost all that can be brought to this world, has already been brought to it but if you can't find something new to bring here, you probably shouldn't be considered in the same list as the others. 

Of course, DS had this knack of being one of the craftiest when it came to surviving and winning wars. It's just that in my mind( maybe a tad old-fashioned) the fact that you could out-click almost everyone in this world is never going to be a reason for you to be remembered. Sure, longevity does have it's perks. It gives you more chances to do something that people will remember for ages.

Coming back to TeQ's bloodline. Well, I haven't known that bloodline for long but for some reason, TeQ will always be someone I admire. Primarily because he was never afraid to speak his mind. I'd like to think I share that trait with him but moving on... he was never someone to bite his tongue for fear of possible repercussions. He called it like he saw it and you really can't expect more from someone. 

As for why he isn't called one of the greats.... I honestly have no idea besides maybe the lack of longevity.

DS built an empire at a time when there wasn't too much controversy over him building an empire. It was a dull time, then an epic, epic war. Nobody could fail to be impressed by his performance in that war.

I think DS, like Prem and Roman, became addicted to their role in this society and they became blind to the way the wind was blowing, and were outwitted.

Teq, man of principle, speaks his mind, etc etc. Yeah, but that's also his downfall. Lack of self restraint and vision. No? 

I wasn't gonna comment in here, people have their own opinions and I respect that. However the idea that DeadlySin's rise was a 'dull time' is a complete and utter fabrication. He set up as a Made Man with one bodyguard and an unmaxed gun in an open experimental city. He went on to be one of only two surviving Crewleaders in that experiment (after removing the rest alongside PoisonousJelly). He was then given his own city along with PoisonousJelly after the Stamina war which they took part in. From that point forward it didn't get much less active in terms of conflict with the New York takedown at the time which was run by one of Cpt-Harris' bloodline. The Chicago war just after DeadlySin took Godfather where Skorpeon was removed, Valmont from Detroit attacking them, intercity conflict in New York after Marston's death, then an attack launched from two cities against New York which DeadlySin threw his city into and won. After that yes, there was a long period of what you would call 'dullness', but that was because that war was a huge war that ended in the death of a large percentage of the population and rebuilding (like we have seen recently) was necessary. Then we saw the takedown of StanPython from New Orleans, and later of Innocence from LA, later than that Revolve from Detroit, and also a smattering of killed off CLs who were plotting behind their leader's backs inbetween. And THEN we saw the huge war that was just one too many for DeadlySin. To say that it was a dull time is a ridiculous statement at best. Not to mention I have only mentioned conflicts here, not any of the other stuff that happened in terms of street celebrations and competitions.

As far as the comments about DS's street presence - yes, he was quiet. He spoke when he needed to, and when he had a message to convey to people. Speaking on every single topic just because you can doesn't mean you have vision, nor does it make you a great.

DS' rise and survival was brilliant, and my bloodline was alongside it for the duration. It is not without a purpose that my name has a certain similarity to his... in his praise.

To get it out of the way, his silence was well practiced. He kept things close to himself, and this was good for him in the long run. Street presence is nice, but when he did speak after an absence, people listened more. Certain bloodlines who talk too much just get ignored after a while. Old Philly was active in the streets, and a lot of it was due to DS' setting up of many events and the like.

I think it's incorrect to say that he was outwitted in the end... wasn't the case. On his own, he had no flaws. Within his city, he had a good amount of loyal members save for one district. The alliance with old New York was probably the downfall. Too much internal conflict built up there and it aligned too well with other discontent in CH with leadership in that city. CH had a good reason to be upset; I can't say that their complaints with NY were invalid. However, this was not DS' fault. 

The final war was also epic in itself. DS and his allies were successful in taking out practically all of his enemies. The other wars, takedowns, and general peace prevention was also masterfully done.

There are a bunch of "ifs" about that final war... and it was really just bad timing for DS. Timing is not what I would call... being outwitted. He came to an honorable end which anyone of us could only begin to hope to strive for. 

SpikeS

Had DS taken out PS, he'd have appeased the masses and removed a major threat. He didn't, and that is a glaring strategic and tactical falure

A few other factors to be considered by you, but PS was a required gun... NY was already falling apart, and with PS taken out... it would've just been worthless, in a strategic sense, with Vaticus and so on gone. 

So, in the long run, if DS allowed for PS to die, DS would've been in a bad position. Yes, Jaqen and his district were strong... but as for that other district? Would they have still turned on DS like they did later on?

DT would've still remained an ally, but losing PS/NY would've cut down power quite a bit. 

I think eventually CH would've taken DS out anyway, maybe even without SammiGarcini's permission.

Point being, yes, he would've appeased people, but as a farsighted player, as DS was, I'd assume he knew the looming threat ahead, and he kept PS around knowing of his offenses... Because PS was loyal to him. It was not a strategic or tactical flaw. It was the safest and decision. CH was lucky in their time of the strike and that's all. 

Poor old Vatican.

He didn't even extort his members for gambling money, unlike someone else we know...