My apologies, and I stand corrected. although my point holds.

It actually does matter. It's not you who lost a paying customer, it's DaKine who lost the playing time he gave his money for. Now I don't know what he did to get himself DD'd but still.

It's a game that doesn't require payment to play. So.... He just lost his GF account tbh. Payment is optional. I've seen many make it without spending a dime.

Frankly, I could do without any admin interference, but I think my questions have been answered over the time as to whether that will stop or not. I guess we take it as it is. Thing that really gets under my skin is that... Is that what we are all (Admin/users alike) are suppose to be concentrating on? There is a ton more problems and things that need attention far more than some of the things that are currently getting attention.

A lot...

How about we keep trying to improve the things that need it instead of constantly taking side trips that don't mean anything? Because lets face it. Admin interference or not, there are some severely problems with MR right now that need to be figured out better, tweaked, or rethought about.

Obviously DaKine felt bad about this boost that Squishy gave out, despite him being up front about it in the beginning.

 Incorrect.

A boost was mentioned, but there weren't any specifics. Its funny how people jump to the defence of one person or the other without any real information or facts.

I'm going to continue with that theme and give a little more information on what had DaKine so upset. You see, many people spend hours upon hours on this game doing the same thing; shooting. Everyone knows that the bigger your gun, the more power you will eventually yield.

This is the root of the reason I feel for DaKines recent anger. He learned* that the boost given was a Gun boost, the stats he was advised of were substantial enough to make even the most ambivalent person somewhat angry. I know of people that have had characters for 4 months now and have been unable to obtain a gun at the level equivalent to the boost afford some people that were involved in The Factory.

DaKine was wrong to abuse Squishy, I wouldn't ever deny that. I'm sure he himself will regret how he approached the situation. But the root cause still remains that people were afforded what amounts to a game changing boost.

Lets remember here, not everyone was able to be in the position to receive these boosts. I'll use myself as an example, I was already a CL. I already worked my ass off with recruiting and training members. So I essentially did the same task as Cantona. If anyone looks at the details from the time of The Factory or asks Cantona, I was always co-operative and even supportive of their efforts.

Now I wont deny Cantona will have put in more work than myself with regard to recruiting, but there is a massive difference between beign able to contact EVERY user that appears and spam them with an Admin Crew invite compared to trying to Role Play contact to new users and not come across as some member whore.

(For the record I'm not saying Cantona Spammed, but I am saying Spamming did happen. There were often occassions where Leaders approached new users and were taking them in, then suddenly certain users from The Factory somehow persuaded them to join them instead, we even saw these new users then go inactive and never return. So sadly these situations did the reverse of what was intended)

Anyway, I'm getting way off point here.. DaKine was rightly upset at the Boosts involved, if the numbers are true. The only people who know the boost are the Admins and those that received it. These boosts were given to people that were undertaking the same job that current leaders already do. They weren't going out of their way to do something unusual.

Cantona has himself suggested statistics should be released to the public to show the good work they did. Perhaps this will aide people in seeing what a good impact The Factory had and show that they deserved these game changing boosts? Or perhaps it will show sadly that there wasn't as big an impact in comparison to the regular user retention that we see. Who knows.

* When I said DaKine learned this info, I have no idea who from. I could speculate, but that doesn't help anyone. So thats why I haven't mentioned the figures that he was using as I have no way of confirming their accurarcy and have no intention to try and fuel further anger.

I don't want to get involved in a discussion over the merits of the admin crew, how hard we worked, whether it was effective etc because ultimately it is an absolute dead end discussion. I will have my opinions, other people will have theirs and until there is some quantifiable data all the discussion on the topic will be anecdotal and neither side will convince each other. For the same reason, there's little point in me addressing specific issues, because we could be here until the cows come home and, more to the point, there is little I can do now about specific grievances which may have occurred over a month ago. I'd like to think that when I was the CL in Bronx that I dealt with specific grievances in the most even handed manner possible, but that's not really for me to decide.

Anyway. I've asked Izzy if it would be possible to present a before/after of advertising figures and (most relevantly) the before/after cost per click/cost per X Impressions. I don't know if that's forthcoming. If I'm going to be honest, the cynic in me says that the people who were opposed to this from the start will just look for anything on which they can hang their confirmation bias as minds seem to have been made up a long time ago. Nevertheless, the advertising data is not something I can provide.

Onwards to the rather contentious issue of the boosts. This is a matter that, frankly, I didn't want to discuss nor did I think (with the admin crew having been disbanded for a month) that I would have to. That said, it will be quicker to respond here than to the multitude of mobmails I'm getting (some of which are from people I have literally never spoken to, who now think asking me my specific wackstat is acceptable. I wish I could add a facepalm gif on these forums)

First of all, from a 'principled' standpoint, I would have this to say: If you are fundamentally opposed to the idea of a player receiving a boost for their work in the admin crew, you should be opposed to the means, not the result. Whether the boost is 1 kill, 10 kills, 100 kills, 1000 kills (or if the stat even is a wack boost!) should not influence your own opinion on whether granting account boosts to people who helped the site (ie putting in at least 10 hour days over a month long period) is personally acceptable to you.

As far as I'm concerned, the moment someone says 'Well, X boost would be ok, but not Y' or a similar statement, they lose all credibility they had. If you are ideologically (for lack of a better word) opposed to the concept of someone being rewarded with a tangible in game benefit for services rendered (again for lack of better term) then it should be absolute. If you're problem is with the size of the boost, rather than the boost itself, (which is, I must add, purely speculation) I again question your motives. 'Yes, this person should have been rewarded...but not so much as that it actually makes a difference'. I.e, the inference is that the reward should only be a token gesture. Alternatively, the claim is that such a sizable boost (What size? Again, purely speculative figures are being thrown around) is not fair on people who are training their accounts. Were the task performed for the site constructing ad copy, or offering legal counsel, or artwork or any other task which took a minimal (comparatively speaking) amount of time, this argument would have merits. Again though, I reiterate that over a month of at least 10 hour days were contributed.

Even throwing all this to one side, the issue of the boost being given in the first instance and specifically the size and nature of it is the Admin's responsibility; it is not me who decided upon the initiative, decided upon a boost being given, decided upon the specific nature of the boost. I have said numerous times and I will state it again; if the admins wish to go public with specific details of the boost than that is entirely their prerogative and I will not complain.

However, that is where I draw the line. If people wish to continue to lobby Squishy/enkindle for full disclosure, that's fine and I can't have any complaints with that. However, I won't tolerate being questioned myself on the matter, moving forward. You wouldn't ask me what start up answers I have, or how many BG kills I've got, or how many kills a day do I usually get. This is no different. The boost, however contentious, is now a definable part of my account and as part of the game politics, (I fully appreciate this is why it is contentious and why people may choose to continue to lobby the admins for information) I am absolutely not pickpocket friendly on the basis that it gives people an opportunity to estimate how many bgs I have. For the same reason, I am absolutely not friendly to people prying for information from me directly pertaining to my account.

This may seem like a trifling thing to split hairs over, but the concept seems pretty clear to me. If you are talking to the admins regarding this matter, it's reasonable to assume you're able to differentiate between IG and OOC; if I continue to get pestered, it comes across as an IG matter and I'll treat it as such.

Eh, I must be one of those that lose all credibility then because of how I think/feel about it. Not how I'd like to think of it myself, but since we are being falsely labeled.

Frankly, I don't mind the boost you received or care for the number. However, I do believe that if it was over 'x' amount of kills and you were able to build that count without harm inside a law and the peace that said you couldn't be harmed, then go into the outside world and use that nerf boosted gun, I can see why this might bother some people. I don't see that as correct.

I won't deny your work, hours put in, etc. Thing is, there are a lot of people who do that. I think what bothers them is that they could have put in 10 hours also on their account, race, recruit, ect without getting close to what you've had given to you for work that is no different from theirs in their eyes. They didn't have a nerf already and the age of they account will probably match their gun, unlike yours.

If you can't see why that would ruffle some feathers even after the Admin Crew has went down, then I don't know what to tell you. You see to only see the one side of things besides the vast majority of everyone else, that I will say, instead of looking at it from others shoes. Because Cantona, you are for the most part an understanding person who sees both sides. Don't let one involving yourself not be the cause of giving what would be your original viewpoint of both sides. Messaging you and asking is one thing, discussing it in OOC is another.

I've got no problem with the OOC discussion, I'd be a hypocrite if I did considering I've contributed to it. That's why I've gone to pains to clarify that discourse with the admins about revealing the boost info is something I have no legitimacy to complain about. The fact that I've stated publicly here (as the best place for it) that I won't tolerate or entertain probing questions, or even outright requests, regarding information my account is another matter. I don't think that's unrealistic or unfair stance, personally.

The people (who in my eyes only, I can't speak for anyone else) who lose credibility do so for statements like this:

Frankly, I don't mind the boost you received or care for the number. However, I do believe that if it was over 'x' amount of kills and you were able to build that count without harm inside a law and the peace that said you couldn't be harmed, then go into the outside world and use that nerf boosted gun, I can see why this might bother some people. I don't see that as correct.

This is something along the lines of a mindset I've heard a lot. 'I don't mind the boost as long; unless it's over 'x' in which case it's a problem'. I apologise if I've misrepresented your thoughts or inferred something that wasn't there in regards to you specifically; but this is a mindset I've encountered a lot and it's completely contradictory. At best, it's diluted. At worst, it's totally bereft of any consistent principle. For me, agreeing with a concept on principle and then disagreeing when it's put into practice is the height of nonsensical. Where do you draw the line of what value 'X' holds before something you previously thought acceptable is now not?

As devil's advocate; a kill boost of 1 could be logically argued as unacceptable because it can be reasonably equated to $1USD based on the MIA system; so it could be claimed (at a stretch) that I was receiving the equivalent of a real life currency. Ultimately, the point I'm making is that to declare something ok in principle, but to then say it's not ok in practice once it passes by an arbitrary point of your own choosing doesn't make me think you have a legitimate argument. How did you pick your X? 24 kills, an entire day worth of killing? 100 kills, because it's treble figures? 69 kills, 'cause lol - 69?

There are some people who were relatively vocal about their opposition to giving out stats to those involved in the admin crew from before I even went bold. I don't think anyone could have a problem with that. There are also people who have only just voiced their dislike of the idea now. I realise it's very harsh of me to make such a sweeping statements; but I honestly find those complaints hard to take seriously:

- When the concept was first announced on Jul 25 it was made clear that users involved would receive 'stacked accounts'.
- Between Jul 25 and Aug 01 (when I set up) it was mentioned in several different public 'areas' that a D boost would be granted to those involved for the duration and removed at the conclusion; and that a wack boost would be permanent
- Anyone could apply for this. (Let's remove say, a very generous estimate of 100 people who were either already bold or considered too important to leave, that still leaves - at a very conservative estimate - 500 eligible people for the role) I don't have an exact number, although, I'm sure Izzy will, but at most around 2 dozen replied.
- I was then bold for the period of a month.
- Another month has passed since I disbanded.

Despite all these events passing by and the process having begun over 2 months ago, we are only now hearing discontent from some people on the back of some second hand knowledge. Call me a cynic, but I believe I am perfectly entitled to question the motives of those that are suddenly displaying such a tenacious interest.

Sorry to have not really responded to this in a linear fashion, but the info above closely relates to two other statements you've made:

I think what bothers them is that they could have put in 10 hours also on their account, race, recruit, ect without getting close to what you've had given to you for work that is no different from theirs in their eyes.

This is something on which we agree, in a bizarre kind of way. Yes, anyone could have had this opportunity. This wasn't 'Admin CL position for Cantona', it was 'admin position for anyone on the site' - indeed, anyone involved in the crew in any capacity were people who had applied for a role within the crew with Squishy. Ultimately, if people chose not to apply (for whatever reason) than this is ultimately their prerogative, not something for which I should be vilified for.

Ultimately this game is about playing a mobster. Manipulation, exploitation, conniving and thriving are all key words. Whether it's taking advantage of a rival's IA time to organise a takedown, identifying and latching on to someone who buys shit loads of credits in the hope they will BG up their new friend, or simply joining the strongest city because they represent the best chance of safety. When the admins announced the crew idea, I applied because I thought 'Doing what I'm doing already and getting rewarded for it? No brainer.' I assumed I wouldn't get the position because so many people would be applying. This isn't to say I did it purely out of selfish reasons; I'm here to help the game any anyone knows me will be able to confirm that fact purely through the amount of 'extra-curricular' things I've done for MR. Ultimately, though, I played the game well. I saw an opportunity and on this playing field, you take an opportunity when it passes you by. I lobbed my CL intensely to let me go on the argument of long term advantages; and this is no different in essence from those who choose to stay up late on a school night to snaffle that extra large durden spawn that was sent for shits and giggles. No different from the fact I have participated in every single admin competition since my return - we're mobsters. I'll do what I can to get an edge.

If you can't see why that would ruffle some feathers even after the Admin Crew has went down, then I don't know what to tell you.

I can absolutely see why it's ruffled feathers. My main query is why this has only ruffled feathers in such a big way two months down the line? I think it is a fairly central question and one that shouldn't be ignored in all honesty.

I don't believe I'm diluted at best with my statement. I draw the line at value of 'x' because I read what all you did for the IA crew, seen time put in, and watched you do a good job at it. If we ever had to have another one, I would certainly have no problem with you conducting it once again because I found your contribution helpful to some point. I don't think you did anything out of the ordinary of any other CL as AlabamaWorley has gave some examples of. Compared to every other CL, you did well in my eyes, but they worked hard too without the chances at having a boost even if they would have liked to help or not.

I come to 'x' amount because it would seem that would be reasonable after reviewing what all you accomplished with the crew and time put into doing as well as you could. Anything over seems more than what I would have expected or thought, but under 'x' amount I consider reasonably fair. I also consider what you would do in the time of (immortality?) with your time besides recruiting and teaching. I would consider MIA's, Durdens, RIAs, and what people are usually expected to have a gun at that age.

Those are just the factors I would have put into consideration if I were the one giving the boost. I don't think that makes my argument anymore less clarified than yours. No, not everyone had the opportunity. Some were CLs and hands needed for their respected districts. Something that was looked upon them already rather than this chance. So to say everyone had a go at it seems a little stretched.

I do where you are coming from, this is something that should have been brought up then, not now. I don't think it is over that they didn't seize the chance to do it, but I think they just find the number they hear a little exceeding than what they would have figured.

I do not understand why you think it has to be a cut and dried and that you must either accept the premise of a boost, regardless of whether it was +1 or +1m, or you cannot accept the premise in it's entirety. That isn't a particularly reasonable argument to make and I would suggest that is far more lacking than the converse view.

And, what start up answers do you have? How many BG kills have you got? How many kills a day do you usually get?

Giles, I doubt that even Cantona would disagree that there is a difference between a reasonable bonus, whatever that may entail, and the entirely ludicrous 1mil boost you are using to make your point, although i cannot speak for him.

as he questioned, How did you pick your X? sure, based on an average of user gun stats (i'm making a SWAG here cause hell, i don't know) of say, 125, you could say that 75 kills is too much because it is more then half of the user average. or you could be even more so and say that 32 would be too much at a forth of the average. But either way is sort of silly because as a user, 1) i only know for sure the gun stat of myself, or of my crew if i'm a CL/RH/LH/HSL. 2) i can't even be sure of my own stat let alone that stat of my people if i'm a leader. so for users to pick a number becomes an exercise in gratuitous bullshit.

without knowing for certain, i would suggest that the permanent gun boost and temporary defense boost were intended to make life harder for people trying to interfere with cantona and company while they did the work laid out for them. sure, city hall put the stamp of safety on them, but  at the same time, under normal circumstances, a rogue could have taken someone out and caused a real issue. the gun boost remaining post-factory simply reflects the fact that cantona and his sponsors took a substantial chunk of time out of their regular play to do this job. and no one has argued that they should not have been compensated.

So allow me to ask, purely for the hell of it, what else would you suggest? If you hate the gun boost, what would you put in it's place?

and your last three questions are both foolish, and pointless. if the factory wasn't part of this debate, you would never ask about peoples startup rolls/answers in an open forum. and Cantona is in no way answerable to you for his normal gameplay.

Let me answer these questions for my good friend Cantona.

His start up answers are middle of the road, he averages 19 kills a day split mainly IA, RIA and MIAs BG kills are dependent on availability but consistently he is taking 19 shots a day.

Hope that clarifies it for you Giles I await you returning your figures.

so for users to pick a number becomes an exercise in gratuitous bullshit.

It really doesn't, Philli.

For instance. Should the boost alone be enough to kill someone that has purchased the Maximum value of BGs, is this a fair boost? Someone has gone to great lengths to protect themselves, by the Admins own admission the BGs are there to enable users to protect their own hard work. Is the hard work done by those in the Admin team enough to justify a gun capable of removing ANYONE from the game?

I hardly think so.

So, there is indeed a figure that certain people will feel is justifiable and another figure that people will deem to be inappropriate.

However, lets not forget a very important fact - No-one other than Admins and those users boosted actually know what their boost was.

I'm not one to keep people waiting, Underdog.

I have no idea what my start up answers are, I haven't killed anyone since about 2011 and I take on average significantly less than 1 shot per day.

you are correct, but once again, there is a difference between reasonable and ludicrous. it would seem clear to me that the boosts in question would not be anything near that much, because to consider that concept suggests that the admins would be dumb enough to , in effect, upset the power balance of the game. 

No, there isn't a chance of that boost being enough to do anything like that. I would go so far as to say that i don't believe the boost could be enough to kill someone at one third of the BG max with any reliability. beyond that, I have no idea. and for the record, even as high as that would be enough to constitute an unfair advantage, since easily 70% of the population have little to no protection. 

19 shots per day? The fuuuuck? Please tell me this is a joke.

19 shots per day? The fuuuuck? Please tell me this is a joke.

19 shots per day is not impossible actually it is possible, i did 12 shots a day continuously in the past you just need a good rhythm or something and it clearly say it has BG RIA and MIA we have a lots of target you should only check and plan your way to do this, i know more peoples who can do do 15 shots a day or more they are quite the people we call not lazy on this kind of matter.

anyway all i can say is if admin or the owner say he will do this to his own server then he can do it you can input anything you want to say but still admin knows what is best for his server. if he implement something that he wanted to be done so be it, he is only thinking the best for all in the future every admin i know thinks which is better in the future i adore this people than admin who will only think small for his own domain or server for a short period of time. its either he will check on the input of the players or society before he implement it, its a process every admin have to undergo and i know squishy think twice before implementing things like this.

19 shots per day is not impossible actually it is possible, i did 12 shots a day continuously in the past you just need a good rhythm or something and it clearly say it has BG RIA and MIA we have a lots of target you should only check and plan your way to do this, i know more peoples who can do do 15 shots a day or more they are quite the people we call not lazy on this kind of matter.

A social life, a job and other things can stop a person taking those many shots a day. Not quite so easy for some.

is one of the biggest things i notice, where i put a limited time in to a character now, is so difficult to keep up with the old days when i was single, penniless and a student, and could put in a 12 hour day or set my alarm every 55 mins for a kill so i could look one up, and get a petty in.  The truth is, it is easier if you have no life to do well or a job based around computers, but without enough people around you as support or who won't get paranoid eventually your buggered anyway as people often have that pack mentality and will tear people, crews or cities apart in minutes if needs be. 

At the end of that when invested x amount of time in the character, instead of working, dating etc how dissapointed do some people feel at the waste of time they put in?

Attempting 19 shots a day, and getting 19 kills per day are very different things.

Getting 19 kills per day every day would put cantona at like what, 2250? I think you might have some numbers wrong there just sayin.