It was a busy day and bboy is on his way home...something has been bothering him after having some talk with his business counterparts earlier. He then decides to speak out whats bothering him...

Good day ladies and Distinguished men, today I would like to share with you some things that has bothered me for some time already. I don't know if this has been discussed before...I'm too tired to dig back into the archives to check. The topic is about Loyalty and Self preservation.

My family line has been on this shores for some time now and for every crew they have been in, they were always sworn into and was asked to pledge their loyalty to their crew leader. And they did so. Now...the question I would like to ask is...Is being loyal a way of self preservation and does self preservation result to loyalty. I would love to hear your opinions on this.

bboy then takes a sit and waits for others to speak....

I don't think loyalty is always about self preservation. That being said it is not blind trust either. You can be loyal and still not agree with a decision your leader makes. Just know that you won't always be able to change their minds. Loyalty is about following your leader (again, not blindly). If your leader is worth their salt they will be okay if you ask questions. They will listen to what you have to say even if they do not agree with it.

For me loyalty isn't about jumping sides in the middle of a war or joining the opposite side to save your skin. It's about having pride in the family/district/city that you worked hard in and doing all you can to make it the best it can be. If a war happens you die with that leader. Why should you die for a leader if you don't think its a good reason? Because you chose to be there. In that choice alone you are pledging yourself to your leader and district. It is the choice you made.

I guess for me it seems so black and white but that is what makes me, me. My bloodline has always died alongside their leaders whether or not they agreed with the reasons for going into wars. It is what you sign up for when you join a family, district, and city. It is not about me, but what is best as a whole.

Like many of our beloved street discussions, there is no single correct answer to your question. There are a range of circumstances which merit prioritizing loyalty or self-preservation, and we advance through that spectrum as we grow in rank and power.

For example, when we first arrive in this world, we require a crew to protect us. Therefore, the only way to preserve yourself is by joining a crew, the first "stage" of loyalty. This stage persists until we reach Wise Guy, where our only way of progressing in rank and power is to be loyal to our boss. If we subscribe to the concept that acquiring power contributes to self-preservation, then it would be reasonable to conclude that in your progress within your crew the best way to attain power is through absolute loyalty. This is the second stage, and at its very pinnacle, if you were truly loyal from the beginning, you find yourself in a very uncomfortable position.

If you are given a crew of your own, or a captaincy to serve under your boss, you begin to balance the preservation of yourself (and your crew) with the loyalty you have for your boss. The "deal" you made with him is in his HQ, and you have a whole crew working for you and in the same position you were just before becoming a crew leader yourself. It is at this stage that our decision-making is influenced much more by preservation than loyalty (or, more accurately, a different loyalty). Whereas before we, as defined in our signing of the crew rules, were loyal to our crew leader, we now much balance the loyalties of and to our current crew members with the loyalty to the boss.

If you progress so far as to acquire your own city or district, it is here that you much consider severing loyalty with your old boss if it means preserving your city full of hard-working men and women. So I suppose loyalty is always the most reliable form of self-preservation, it's just the character of that loyalty that changes over time.

Good topic; one which definitely allowed me to flesh out some of the ideas I'd had rattling around in my head.

Wonderful opinions I must say. So as I understand what was said....loyalty has it's stages as one progress in his career as a mafioso. As you rank up, greater amount of loyalty is expected from you. And I guess that's the reason why people below the rank of Made Man are usually given protection order after a war and those Made Men and up are expected to go down with the ship.

As you rank up, greater amount of loyalty is expected from you. And I guess that's the reason why people below the rank of Made Man are usually given protection order after a war and those Made Men and up are expected to go down with the ship.

Dana stepped in the the street her black dress pumps clicking on the pavement as she walked out of the crowd. She casually brushed some lint off the sleeve of her dress suit before stepping up to speak in reply to what the man just before her had said.

Its my humble opinion that this is the basic summary; If you took your time picking a family then worked your way up there under the guidance and protection of that leader they have given you that. You reach the rank of W.G. and you need to know that thats where you want to be for the rest of your career. Has your leader protected you? Advised you? Helped you where they reasonably could? If the answers to those things are yes, you are in their debt. Now most leaders will not phrase it that way but lets be real here without them you would be in a pine box. If nothing else, that alone deserves ones respect and hanging with that boss until the end. I understand though some people find friends in other families and such and think they would be happier there Still, in MY eyes, if you are going to change families W.G. is the last possible stop for that train after that you have basically stated you WILL die for your family. It is not that fighting and dieing for ones family is not expected before that should a war break out but in times of peace if your really unhappy that is the last possible point of decision.

Personally, I told my boss when I was at earner I would go down for the family without a thought and I stand by that however I'm not sure that level of commitment is required by every CL at that early stage but I can understand the reasoning if it were. Leaving a family basically says "I don't want to be here because <b.s. reason> and i want to go elsewhere." and it says to the CL that person made a bad choice in investing their time in your well being. Most people in this thing of ours don't like bad investments and will remember then for a good while.

Finally,  personally I think if you leave a family in a time of war to save your own arse you are a coward and should be taken down and alley and shot no matter what rank you are.

The initial reason for many bloodline joining a crew is so they don't die, and that means the first part of being loyal comes from not wanting to be shot so for many of us loyalty is tied to self preservation :D

I don't think anyone is really in someone's debt unless they choose to be, the tax money and being a potential target in a take down instead of a bodyguard is what pays for the other stuff like not getting shot and help, and everyone has their own right to define what is and isn't a good enough reason to try to leave :D

Just have to remember that there are consequences for everything and only you can know if one side of a decision is worth more than another regardless of what some or a lot of people say... and that difference for all of us is what make life interesting :D

For me, self preservation and loyalty are not the same thing.. Ted just mentioned a situation in that describes why I am kind of wrong.

However let me explain my point of view. I am loyal to my family, and therefore will die with/for them if a war were to break out. As for when a war breaks out, my own well being is not on my mind. A much bigger picture is exposed. Whether it be city, district or family, I am fighting for that in hopes of preserving that. If I die in that process, then I did my job the best I could.

Loyalty to me is trust in your leaders, now that doesn't mean I won't ask questions. For the most part I can trust they have the family/district/city's best interest in mind. Therefore if I am told to jump.. I tend to ask "how high?".

With all of that being said, if you are to leave a crew in the midst of a crisis to save your own ass... I say that would be treason, the punishment.. Death.

Diablos takes a moment, refraining from murdering and robbing to listen to bboy. He ponders for some time, trying to make sure he chooses his words correctly. He doesn't want to come across like he is making another "thinly veiled bitchfit", he couldn't possibly handle being accused of that a second time.

"I think we have two possible choices that can encompass every situation where loyalty is called into question.  "Loyalty" and "Preservation". As with any debate, I feel the topics should be defined before hand. These are my definitions.

The first, "Loyalty", would be someone who (as the name would suggest) is blindly loyal until the end. His or her crew leader says jump, they jump. His or her crew leader says fly here and shoot this, it's done. His or her crew leader dies in a war, they fight to avenge their death, even if it means they have ensured their own. That in my opinion, is true loyalty.

The second, "Preservation" is an individual or group who work towards longevity. Whether they will admit it or not, a person does not turn on their crew leader or godfather on a whim. Self preservation is something he or she has thought about either from the first moment they have joined the crew, or some event has made them bitter toward the leadership of their current establishment.

I do think in a lot of cases both are inherent in all of us. It is which path that we take, that will put us in one category or the other.

To answer your question a little better without going to far off topic. Loyalty is only as self preserving as who you are loyal to. Self Preservation however does not necessarily promote or produce loyalty.

Frankenstein takes a moment to take in what has been said by others and rocks back and forth on his heels contemplating what to say, he strikes up a cigarette and watches each of the people speak. 

Is being loyal a way of self preservation and does self preservation result to loyalty

"Well now this is a double sided question and it stands to what side of the fence you stand on, Being loyal can sometimes be a way of self preservation but not always so, being loyal and following blindly can sometimes see to it that your preservation is cut short. On the other side Self Preservation dose not result in loyalty at all, Self preservation is the "I" thinking and can sometimes if not always see loyalty changing to best suit the conditions that will provide self preservation. Trust in your loyalty will run low eventually thought if you follow that path."

I don't think loyalty is always about self preservation. That being said it is not blind trust either. You can be loyal and still not agree with a decision your leader makes. Just know that you won't always be able to change their minds. Loyalty is about following your leader (again, not blindly). If your leader is worth their salt they will be okay if you ask questions. They will listen to what you have to say even if they do not agree with it.

For me loyalty isn't about jumping sides in the middle of a war or joining the opposite side to save your skin. It's about having pride in the family/district/city that you worked hard in and doing all you can to make it the best it can be. If a war happens you die with that leader. Why should you die for a leader if you don't think its a good reason? Because you chose to be there. In that choice alone you are pledging yourself to your leader and district. It is the choice you made.

I guess for me it seems so black and white but that is what makes me, me. My bloodline has always died alongside their leaders whether or not they agreed with the reasons for going into wars. It is what you sign up for when you join a family, district, and city. It is not about me, but what is best as a whole.

~senka

I agree with you Senka being loyal dose not mean you have to agree with the one you are being loyal to all the time. You can follow a leader even if you know they are about to make the mistake but you are there for them and in a friend ship that is a great thing to have by your side (so long as you were trying to steer them in the right direction)

If you jump sides in the middle of a war or joining the opposite side to save your skin that is not loyalty its being a coward but it is self preservation. 

Mr. Frankenstein self-preservation is 'I thinking' but wouldn't a sound minded self-preserving man stay loyal if that was in their best interests? By that I mean the highest likelihood to survive and be left free to do what he does comes from being loyal in our circumstances. I believe that if a Crew Leader cares about making his family stronger they have to invest in their members as much as they invest in the Leader to justify the members not only staying in their crew, but working as hard as they could and should. That means that 'selfless' acts are done to help a system that is supposed to be invested in them, which means helping the system should help the individual and even if you don't want to be selfish you're reaping rewards for your work :D

A self-preserving person yes, they would stay loyal up into the point of the ship going down then their loyalties would shift to the higher power who could offer a longer self preservence to that person 

But a man is trusted in their loyalty only so much when they are seen changing loyalty when things get a bit rough. 

What you're describing is a fool, not a man focused on self-preservation. Taking deals of such a nature doesn't always pan out so if they did take a deal it would only be done with assurances that are almost impossible to be really given in this thing of ours otherwise they are taking a deal without those nearly impossible assurances and will likely be shot at the first opportunity later. Loyalty to the point of laying down to die with someone at death's door step doesn't help them when they're at that point, almost nothing will. Loyalty like that before that point can also mislead people because those types of people rarely ask questions or do things that would keep a leader in check, whereas a selfish guy might've made a fuss and got the leader to think before doing something again that previously could've rubbed another outside the family the wrong way. :D

Loyalty doesn't equal good, loyalty equals loyalty. It's usually good but like everything else it's only good in moderation. :D

What you're describing is a fool, not a man focused on self-preservation. Taking deals of such a nature doesn't always pan out so if they did take a deal it would only be done with assurances that are almost impossible to be really given in this thing of ours otherwise they are taking a deal without those nearly impossible assurances and will likely be shot at the first opportunity later.

Well if the person is greedy enough in self preservation then someone could say they would offer the world with fingers crossed behind their back, and get what they want. Seeing say....a RH fault and surely cause the demise of his leader. Only to have been offered a empty promise and no trust from the one he just jumped ship to... I mean who would trust such a man. And yes he would be shot at first opportunity later for the sole fact once a fool always a fool. (we all make mistakes but it's hard to regain trust)

So yes they are a fool in self-preservation with false loyalty

 laying down to die with someone at death's door step doesn't help them when they're at that point, almost nothing will. Loyalty like that before that point can also mislead people because those types of people rarely ask questions or do things that would keep a leader in check, whereas a selfish guy might've made a fuss and got the leader to think before doing something again that previously could've rubbed another outside the family the wrong way

No... No it doesn't help them at that point. But why dose a captain stay with the ship when its sinking? To try and make sure his crew survives. yes not everyone is a Captain but they could live like one and at least die a honorable death even if they don't 100% agree with the reasoning. 

I would like to live by one of the codes 

DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR 

Death before dishonor means one would rather die than to bring shame or disgrace upon oneself, one friends or family.

Self preservation can lead to loyalty and maybe a long life but at times when your loyalty gets questioned and your life is on the line your loyalty will shift to preserve yourself but at the cost of dishonoring yourself and your family.

Being Loyal will ensure your self preservation all the way to your death but can preserve more then your life but your image, your respect, your legacy!

Visas had been watching the debate with interest her mind going back to her ancestors long dead and rotting in unmarked graves or scattered amongst the silt at the bottom of some lake, Not that she cared they where weak and deserved there fate a wicked smile formed on her lips as she envisioned there final destruction that smile turned to anger as she realised they fought to the end never once looking for an way out or a safe haven.

How dare they, THEY WHERE WEAK and deserved to die

Her anger boiling inside of her turning to a rage

Even though my ancestors where weak minded fools unlike myself, The day they received there button there lives where entwined with there Crew leaders, There Crew Leaders had bought them in had protected them entrusted them by giving them that nice shiny button to wear on there chest.

My ancestors may or may not have agreed on the path that there crew leader had taken that lead to there destuction but on accepting that button had accepted that fate and would go willing to there graves.

Only the weak and cowards would look for an out and who wants them? Even a weak minded Fool would know that a coward will not help them once the chips are down.

Visas turns an little old lady walking past waveing her had accross the ladys face she says.

Thank you for returning my hand bag you left yours at home you better go and get it

The old lady hands Visas her hand bag 

Here this is yours i must go home and get mine

Visas then steps into an alleyway and fades outta Sight

That is a good point Mr. Frankenstein, self-preservation is the wrong word though. I believe it is a desire for power at any cost that leads men to take deals the RH would take in that situation. The pursuit of anything should be done in moderation, just like the pursuit of power. The fact any man would take a deal for unearned power is a sign that he is naïve and would willingly take a deal that will likely end up killing him later, that is the fool which we speak of. It isn't his thoughts to promote himself that are wrong, it's his thoughts to get power at any cost that is. Risks of that nature aren't for self-preservation at all, in my opinion, they're from putting something above it :D

As for the captain of a sinking ship, he goes down because the ship went down under his watch. He failed, and if any should die from a lack of space on the lifeboats it should be him and anyone else who could've prevented it. All leaders should go down with the ship, but why should the passengers or low level crew who had no say in the important matters? :D

Death before dishonor puts bloodline self-preservation above individual life self-preservation. You're looking for long term gains for future descendants that you aren't guaranteed to get. Therefor to an extent you're doing the same thing as the man taking that deal, you're putting something like the opinion of others above your own self-preservation without a guarantee to receive anything for it. :D

Taking a death foolishly reminds people that you are loyal, but it also reminds people that you are loyal to a fault and this can likely be manipulated for their own purposes later :D

Correct me if I'm wrong....as I understand it...self preservation is as the word suggests focused on non other than self. One will take the ride as long as it serves his purpose and as long as his survival is not at risk but will take another hitch once the travel gets rough and too dangerous to his survival. While actions like following orders can help to his survival...he is prepared to disobeys some orders if he view it as putting his life and his existence in jeopardy. This is how I understand the word self preservation. And I believe this word is not on the top of list of words that are admired much more sought upon by leaders. I don't know...I might be wrong though.

That is the way it is, to an extent :D

No one of sound mind would actually follow any order, so that means there are orders they would disobey and it is to be somewhat admired because the other option is blindly following orders. You're very wrong on whether or not the people at the top do it because you don't seem to want to think they can do things that directly help others for the purpose of gaining indirectly in the long run :D