Tia saunters out into the streets. Not giving a fuck who is moseying around her on this frigid day. Her thoughts are set upon a certain a topic. A topic that has been getting under skin as of late. She was looking for a particular person that was supposed to be down close to the docks where the lively (if we could call them that) were recruited their latest victims and money mules.

Spotting Bass on his favourite bench she slumped down beside him.

"It's happening again. Does this sick cycle ever end?" she asks him.

Shrugging his shoulders in reply as was his usual way. He'd wait for her to vent it all out while he sat in silence. He knew she was the most vocal of things she hated or despised hearing. Once it was out in the open though chances are she'd be alright until the next idiot came her way. He sincerely hoped she'd reign in that fire one day. No one around these parts had the fire and passion she did and they had no respect for it.

Tia dug her hands into her pockets and settled in for the sharing of her thoughts. Right out in the middle where everyone could hear. Damned if they could, maybe they would learn something or at least have valuable input. Of course she was prepared for the people that just wanted trouble and couldn't see out of their asses. So she began, speaking quietly at first.

"These people. Their effort is so lacking it seems. I heard people talking about lack of experience as an excuse for not having new people promoted to their own crews or for using as hands. It seems like such a silly thing to say. I mean a leader is meant to actually teach are they not? If there is someone that could benefit from being taught why do they not do it?"

Tia paused to look at Bass. Sighing in frustration that he never spoke she carried on.

"I always believed a leader should have the ability to teach the ways of the world. To see potential and draw it out of people. Maybe my beliefs are silly to a lot of people but shouldn't a leader use their members strengths? Work on their weaknesses? When did things get so slack that they no longer work to improve but to remain stale? And believe you me it is stale. Always the same cycles. Very few people break through that cycle but I bet their leaders saw something in them and worked with them. Teaching them.

It's stupid. The whole line is stupid and it should stop being used."

Rolling her eyes once more she pulled the hoodie she wore over her head. Burrowing into the warmth of her sweater as she waited and hoped that this time Bass would speak. Say something at least useful to her.

And I thought you were turning over a new leaf , well then.

Defy skips off

I believe you are getting a Boss, or "leader", as you like to call them, confused with a kindergarten teacher. A mafia boss does not exist for the purpose of instructing those who are wet behind the ears. They exist for the purpose of managing the upper echelons and expanding the power and wealth of their family.

The reason this thing of ours has continued to flourish over the centuries is because the weak either die out or do not advance high enough to fuck things up. Our thing is run on a "sink or swim" philosophy. That's not to say that a youngster cannot learn from someone more experienced, but that person would be their capo, if they are a newly made guy, or their contact within the family, if they are still a scrub on the streets. You really think the Family Boss should be holding hands with the grunts who get their hands dirty?

These responsibilities I have pointed out might also be lacking in the underground today, but I thought I should point it out, so that if you are bent on offering criticism, it could at least start out with a proper perspective.

Well, this speech is all well and good, Tia. Cute argument, but people do break through, and you're just sour because your blood's CV has remained constant performance wise for however long now, despite promise of change. Perhaps, you're jealous of new blood. 

I think you can learn a lot from Defy. He's not exactly new, but he does know politics better than you. 

Tyrion scratched his head, somewhat confused by the stance taken by Tia.

I'm not quite sure what you are expecting here. Are you saying that leaders should spend night and day teaching those within the crew the ways of the world? What the actual fuck are the family for, then?

I wouldn't expect Wargasm to teach any recruits I bring in. Sure, I expect him to act on any nods I give him regarding potential I see in some, then he'd likely play a part in their lives if there was that sign of potential in them. But it's the responsibility of the likes of me to spend the time teaching people, getting them up to speed on things and giving them all that they need to succeed in this thing of ours, but after that it is down to members to actually show they want to grow further than that.

I'm completely baffled by this stance from you, to be honest. Contrary to Defys comment, I do believe you are trying to turn over a new leaf and this speech doesn't change that view for me, as I can't actually imagine any of your ancestors discussing this view as they weren't notorious for helping to teach, in fact they were notorious for the opposite and refusing to help people as they often referred to them as idiots or morons. So it's quite a shock to hear you now speak about how the Leader should be the one to drop it all and teach folk.

Ascanius: I don't know you - but that was an appalling comment in my view. Calling someone sour because of their bloodline and yet you don't even really address the actual topic that was raised? What kinda crap is that? At least if your coming out to insult someone, have the decency to explain why you disagree with their view.

I believe you are getting a Boss, or "leader", as you like to call them, confused with a kindergarten teacher. A mafia boss does not exist for the purpose of instructing those who are wet behind the ears.

A leader also needs to see the possibilities of their new members and encourage them by

1. leading by example

2. teaching those who are willing to learn and YES even mold them into good hands and even future CL's

This was done with me. I was on these shores a month when my leader saw my abilities and began teaching me the way of things round here. Two months and another city later another leader saw the same things, took me under their wings and set me as their left hand. I knew nothing and they took the time to explain things to me step by step and answer questions as I had them. They taught me the proper ways to be a hand and within a month I was the RH. A few months later and after an excursion into another city, I rejoined this person as their RH in a new city and became their RH when they took GF a couple months later. Throughout I regularly got mails stating "I want it done this way" with an explanation as to why. Those mails were invaluable. Our conversations about the goings ons and the proper ways were invaluable.

By leaders stepping up and doing such things there would be more qualified hands and future leaders. I did not hang out in the coffee shops and become besties with anyone to get where I did. In fact, I firmly believe the leaders produced by coffee shop associations are generally not the best leaders. I worked hard, listened and learned without associating myself with the coffee shop regulars. Good friends do not always make the best leaders or hands for that matter.

Yes, I realize you have to trust your hands but if a leader put the work into an eager, hard working member their loyalty is easily gained.

Surely those who are in their fine bold suits today deserved it? You work for that kind of thing and that's why we congratulate those who are authed when their crew's debut is announced. I always liked to believe that experiments were made to test if new auths can manage being in bold suits rather than fighting for the city and well people seem to always be disillusioned with how those turn out.

If trust is derived from past experiences then I don't blame Leaders for choosing their hands based on the acknowledgement of that person. Traits are inherent it seems. Wouldn't you prefer to grant someone you know that would represent the family accordingly (as well as your decision - no one wants a pile of mistakes on their resume) that title? The decision really boils down preferences, not everyone leads the same.

Just as Tyrion practically already said, it's the family's responsibility to help out newly recruits. In some families, the sponsors vouch for their associate. It's the things you do in your crew that indicate what you can do in your very own. Improve yourself, work for it, and you'll earn your place. 

Tia raises an eyebrow at Defy.

So because I decided I would like to bring up a topic suddenly means I am not attempting a new leaf? Interesting. Why should I have to be silent to do so?

Turning to FlyingPig she listens to the reply. Smiling to herself more than anyone else.

I think you misunderstand slightly. I will try to make this as clear as I can. I do not think that a Boss should hand hold. I do think if they are going to use the excuse of "lack of experience" that they should do something about that.

It is not to undermine the meaning of family or those high ranking members that are answering questions behind the scenes. It is the excuse that is given so frequently in this time. I think Sneaker's situation would explain it better than anything.

I think I understand the points you are making though. It just doesn't follow with my meaning. Getting rid of the excuses is more the meaning than anything else.

Directing her attention next to Ascanius.

Interesting choice of words. I am not going to debate my bloodline with anyone. It has no relevance to the topic. However, if I were jealous of new blood why would I be arguing for them? Shouldn't it be the opposite?

Flashing Tyrion a smile.

I believe you are a tad mistaken. My belief isn't that a leader should sit down and teach every single member. My belief is that if they are going to use the excuse of lack of experience and continue to say they would give a new blood a chance if they had the experience that they should actually give that experience. How else are they supposed to learn?

It's been argued that a lot of higher ranks wouldn't be suited for hand spots so it could be argued as well that maybe they should not be the ones to rely on teaching said potential/future upper structure. Do I agree that high rankers should be deemed not trustworthy? Well that is not my call to make. I can merely comment on what has been said to me in conversations.

I do hope that shock was in a good way.

Heading over to Sneaker, Tia offers her hand.

Thank you for the example. It was perfect to my meaning of this topic. I really appreciate that you came out to speak here.

Taking a moment's break to send a young lad down the street for coffee before resuming her attention to the next person, Prescott.

I feel like I may be a broken record by the end of this but again it is not the family under scrutiny. Merely an excuse.

Yes there are sponsors to teach their recruits. That is what they are there. To teach the basics of this thing of ours but there is so much more to it then that in other roles and responsibilities. As someone said to me, it doesn't take a lot to earn or hit. I would argue the earning bit quite fiercely but that's for another day.

Hopefully everyone has a better understanding of the point that is being made and what I am referring to when I am speaking of teaching.

Spotting the young lad, Tia waves him over and takes the coffee from him before settling in to listen to more replies.

I agree that sponsors and made family should have the ability and will to teach the young'uns. In fact, the first family I was in had four people who gave advice to their group of people (can't remember what their title was although I became one and then oversaw them all before moving on.) The Groups even competed with each other for earnings, pickpockets and various other inner family events.

Unfortunately, all sponsors are not created equally. Over the years I have ran into a number of sponsors who did not even know enough to teach me and IMO should have never been made without having this ability. I've even had sponsors make up wrong answers to my questions (I had a habit of asking things I already knew to define their capabilities.)

Unless a sponsor has led successfully (and I don't mean just sitting in the Boss chair) before, at some point when the right person comes along the leader themselves are the only ones who can teach them their particular ways. No two leaders are the same. Second hand knowledge from a hand attempting to teach a prospective individual can and does at times fall short. Even with the best of intentions, their information can turn into a fish story since what I was getting was their interpretation of what they thought the leader meant and not always the same as the leader themselves.

I share the same opinion for the most part.

Crew leaders should have the common sense to teach their members, lead their members and make decisions that the majority of their members respect. Otherwise, why the fuck do they exist? They are not shit without their family, if they don't want to have a hand in molding some of their "prospects" then they are not worth a fuck...to put it politely.

As I have stated before, I believe in the initial chain of command.

Hearing Tia speak her mind, Angelina ponders this for a second before answering.

I dont particularly understand where you are coming from here. A Crew Leader has a lot of responsibilities, the majority of which revolve around the protection of the family and the district to which his family serves. I dont completely disagree with you on your points but i feel there is some things that need to be said here.

first, The CL has hands and Sponsors for a reason. Yes the Crew Leader should lead by example, which is what a good leader should do, However if you have ever been a crew leader, then you know how stressful that job can be from time to time. I personally believe that the training of new members should fall on teh LHM's shoulders, as i have always seen the LH has the person who handles most of the internal issues within teh family, leaving the CL and RHM to focus on the external matters that affect the family.

In addition to the LHM, you also have your sponsors. Its them, in my opinion, that is primarily responsible for teaching the people that they are sponsoring and leading them by example. Its the sponsors who should be telling the hands "hey, we should pay more attention to this guy, he has a lot of potential and promise." which in turn would tell the CL. Essentially what i am referring to is chain of command. I personally think that the Sponsors should be able to voice their opinion about whether or not that particular associate gets his made man button, as it should be the sponsor that plays the biggest role in the life of that associate. Teaching him, molding him, etc.

So the burden of teaching new players doesnt necessarily fall on teh Crew Leader himself, in my opinion.

Surely those who are in their fine bold suits today deserved it? You work for that kind of thing and that's why we congratulate those who are authed when their crew's debut is announced. I always liked to believe that experiments were made to test if new auths can manage being in bold suits rather than fighting for the city and well people seem to always be disillusioned with how those turn out.

That's why people congratulate them? Because they always earn it? My opinion is quite different on that one.

Often times the experiments are riddled with old bloodlines who have been leaders before. They're an interesting thing to watch when properly handled and even more interesting to watch when they're mishandled and abandoned. That's why they're created. No true new auth can be gauged off of them, the environment and damn near everything is different from a normal auth.

If trust is derived from past experiences then I don't blame Leaders for choosing their hands based on the acknowledgement of that person. Traits are inherent it seems. Wouldn't you prefer to grant someone you know that would represent the family accordingly (as well as your decision - no one wants a pile of mistakes on their resume) that title? The decision really boils down preferences, not everyone leads the same.

This is the mafia, people are led to the slaughter by their most trusted. It happens time and time again yet it's always an excuse to halt the progress of most. Lets just say, a majority lead the same, a vast majority.

Just as Tyrion practically already said, it's the family's responsibility to help out newly recruits. In some families, the sponsors vouch for their associate. It's the things you do in your crew that indicate what you can do in your very own. Improve yourself, work for it, and you'll earn your place. 

 It's the leaders responsibility to help out the family and every aspect of it. That's what a leader is, that's what they do. It's not always about what you do but rather who....you know. The fast track.

A few relatives back my family was authed, and rose up the ranks to Godfather.  My family was lucky to gain some members who had stuck together from a fallen family and generations had worked in the passed with Lush.  Quickly the team showed how dynamic they could be when working together.   My relative knew the enthusiasm was there, and the loyalty as they helped in various war's even sacrificing members of their blood line for the protection of the family.

Quickly he offered advice, gave tips and tricks and helped them in anyway they can, he knew so much they had to learn themselves, but he liked the hands on approach especially as felt his tasks were limited when rising to godfather.  Slowly he had watched one member in particular rise through his ranks and added responsibilities as they progressed, sponsor, capo, lhm before authing them as a crewleader.   He then followed this by promoting people who had showed enthusiasm and assisted the family in many ways so to learn rh, this continued then with the rh being authed, and the lh joined the former rh as a his right hand to further his CV.  

Yet again a person was given chance to shine who had proven their worth as a new lh and rh emerged and a member was allowed to leave to rh for a new leader.   I do believe things should be like a process where people are brought in polished, moved on to more responsibility to see how they cope.. not everyone will cut it and yes it can be a slow process as opportunities are limited especially in peace time, and not everyone will rise to the challenge, but a leader has to analyse his assets or cut his losses when the time comes.

As a Godfather and a leader my relative would create and send out tips and tricks via mass mail, some would pay attention, some thought they knew better or didn't.  It was a task that didn't take long but meant people learnt something, and kept a good retention of active members.  Things shouldn't all be on a leader, delegation is going to be key at stages, especially in the initial attempts to grow a family but it doesn't have to be hard to teach people too even if is create a guide, direct people at it and have questions aimed via crew chat, at sponsors or to the upper structure with the one day hope of motivating them into feeling it could be them one day.

Insight casually walks by, the crowd getting his attention. Puts his cigar out and makes his way through the group of people.
   He listens to the point Tia is putting across, reflecting upon his own experience as being considered new blood here.
 After Tia finishes Insight steps up to the front, and takes his fedora off, holding it by his side.
 
Ya know Tia, in some cases you may have a point. Maybe lack of experience, and lack of teaching can result in a crew leaders dismissal of a promotion, or place in a crews structure. And I'm sure there are cases where the sponsors or the CL just don't take a interest in looking after the needs of the new. 

 But I come to you as a case of the opposite. My blood line has been off the streets so long that when my line decided to surface again these streets had a entirely different look. Almost nothing the same as my ancestors had encountered. 
 But yet within mere moments of my family's return here I had multiple inquiry's of how I was doing, and if there was anything I needed or wanted to know, just to ask. 

With multiple offers of sponsors, and without much knowledge of who was who. I accepted, with blind faith, to that of a Mr. Rorschach. With that I was with the Banditos. And with every step of the way the crew, Rorschach and my CL DanTheMan (along with Jeddy, Kingfisher, Grimes, Space-to-the-pole), was, and is, there for every question, no matter how frivolous, and to answer my what some would call "foolish" questions. I guess you could say I lucked in to such a great crew. I wouldn't be the man I am today without them. And am forever grateful to them. So what I'm trying to put forward is that personal experience is a lot of what makes a person. But work ethic gives a person value. And if your willing to work for it, people will take notice :)

Angelina I would disagree on your point about why people congratulate auths. Even to go so far as to say there is a good portion of people that do not even attend. I do agree with rw318's points that he has made.

Leaders should be involved in every aspect otherwise would they not be more like ambassadors? Or people that play with politics but don't know how to lead a group of people?

It is the family's responsibility to ensure the basics are learned. However they cannot possibly teach a prospective leader everything they will need to know especially if they were not in that spot.

kid_ink thank you for sharing. I do wish more individuals took that much time however sometimes it is not always possible which is where the family comes in.

Insight I agree to a point with what you have said. It doesn't entirely follow the doing away with the excuse of "lack of experience". However, I will pose a question to you. Although your specific family has answered every question do you think that if they said they saw someone have potential to be a hand or a leader that they would take the extra time to teach that person whatever position and the responsibilities required or would they use the common excuse of lack of experience?

I don't know your leaders so I cannot judge them on what they would or wouldn't do. I am merely curious if you believe they would use lack of experience as an excuse or actually teach the individual.

Rorschach steps out of the speakeasy he often frequented after a hard day collecting, hustling and generally making a dishonest buck and immediately notices a small crowd surrounding a bench and listens intently for a while, nodding in agreement with some points and mentally questioning the validity of some other points before he clears his throat to voice his opinion on the matter in question:

"Personally, I have to agree with Insight, with regards his opinion on DanTheMan's disinterest in bloodlines and lack of experience. Having read their diaries and journals, I can say quite confidently that my kin have had little or no interaction with Dan or his kin, yet upon joining the Bandito's, I was moulded and guided to adopt the code he expects of his family. Oftentimes I was exposed to the increased responsibilities of LHM and RHM - little to begin with, increasing in time as my confidence and trust in him (along with his trust and confidence in me, I'm sure) grew. I will say that several others have had a hand in crafting me into the businessman I am today, although Dan was the first to really offer me an extended stay as a hand, and he never questioned my experience. He - along with Kingfisher, Space-Pole and Jeddy - answered any questions I may have had, with regards the general day-to-day running of operations."

With that, Rorschach pulls his jacket tightly around his waist and places his fedora on his head, readying himself for the short walk home, still listening from the outskirts as the debate rages on.