Ah what a beautiful day. The streets were starting to live up a bit and just a couple of days prior, Jono got his button.

"The button" he thought.

The hows and whys of people getting their button and been on his mind for quite a while and he thought it was now time to bring what will hopefully turn in to an intriguing discussion about it to the streets of our country. To often are the thoughts and opinions of our core people often overlooked when it comes to the promotion procedure. It's usually kept dark when leaders and their hands are to stubborn to have it any other way than their own. 

Jono needed to find somewhere to get this out in the open. Looking a head he can see a small crowd gathering around what seems to be a lunatic missing from the insane asylum. All he could hear was mutterings and ramblings about how paper somehow beats rock and handing out bits of paper that tells people Czylharz is officially the worst mafia name ever, beating The Fonz Appreciation Society to the post. He must have been on crack or something while counting the polls. Thankfully the crowd grew larger and a space had emptied on the bench a few metres past the fool next to ChrisPalko.

"Alright Dipshit" Jono says.

"Who ya calling dipshit! Haha. Good to see you pal." Came the reply. 

Jono embraced Chris's hand and took a seat next to him. 

"So as always fella, i've got something on my mind. What is it these days when people keep complaining about rank losing it's meaning. I mean, if it's not the streets being dead or the constant stagnation it's that reaching a higher rank doesn't mean anything around here any more. For a start mate, I've got to say I agree with what people are saying. That's just it though really, they're SAYING it. Where is the action these days? Where are the ideas and rule changes that enforce the idea of rank being something to be proud of, an accomplishment. 

People have got to realise that we are in our own control. Yes there is certain limitations on what we can do in this life but the majority of it? Hell.... we can control as much of it as we want. We the mobsters make this thing of ours what it is and we the mobsters have the power to change it, to mould it in to the way we want it to be. So if people want more importance on rank, what do they have to do? They have to start with themselves and then the community. 

Now I am well aware that I often to forget my own opinion before asking other people theirs. So here is a few things that I think could be done and that over the generations I have done to help add importance back to the rank and titles that are supposed to be a cut above the rest. 

Pickpocketing - This should be based on rank. None of this "PP friendly" or "Not PP friendly" bull shit. If you out rank your intended target? Bloody well go for it. If you don't out rank your intended target... Leave him or her well the fuck alone. Have some respect. 

A well known likeability - Made Men and above should be respected and it should be damned hard to achieve this status. When I say well known likeability I mean it should be a person who is liked or respected rather around the whole district. Not just with in that persons crew at the time. This could come from showing their face around the streets a bit more or just generally broadening their horizons within the city itself. 

A member should never EVER be the same rank as their crew leader. - This one should be an absolute given really. You are the top dog, no one should be your equal with in your family unless you have given that person the HONOUR of running their own family.

People in a family position who are not Made+ - This one always puzzled me. RH, LH, HSL, Financier etc etc are all trust positions that should not be dealt out to associates of the family. They should be given to people Made+ and ONLY Made+

Demotion - Demotion as a punishment should be the norm. One thing I have noticed over the last how ever how long it's been now is that people are afraid to demote their own members. Why is this? Is it because this person has invested so much time and money in to their life so far that you feel you can not demote them for a fuck up? Do you feel you would be un-doing all of the hard work that they have put in so far? I usually hate answering my own questions but let me just answer that one real quick. If a person is in a position where a punishment needs to be handed out, then it is their own fault for getting themselves in that position in the first place. 

Holding people back - Do NOT be afraid to hold people back from promotions until you are 100% sure that one is deserved. Why is no one held back any more? Is it because of the things I've just said a minute a go?

Basically... Do not feel you owe anything to anyone until that person has genuinely and thoroughly deserved it in your own opinion and in that of your hands and your inner circle. Use the people around you that you already trust to help you make decisions on who should be promoted and who shouldn't. Furthermore, do it for every single promotion. Not just the Made Man promotion. 

Now Chris, before you go on about "Yeah but positions in a family like RH etc can only be given to those who are ultimately trusted and known through generations so a bit of leeway should be given." There are always ways around such things if and when you look hard enough. Promote your LHM until such a time as the other person has earned their button or hell... you're a crewleader, you should be more than capable to hold the Fort (Yep.) on your own for a few days. 

At the very end of the day my friend, we have the tools to make of it what we want. Why don't we?

So, what are your thoughts? Do you have any other ideas? Does Mako's mother really hate him?

A member should never EVER be the same rank as their crew leader. - This one should be an absolute given really. You are the top dog, no one should be your equal with in your family unless you have given that person the HONOUR of running their own family.

Well said lad. A crime family leader is the top dog, there is no reason that there is another carrying an equal rank within his or her organization.

Ah yes idealistic points about rank that have been said copious times over the last few years. The answer is no; Rank doesn't mean anything. Who you are is what matters. Your gun potentially as well, but sometimes just who you are is enough. 

Wow. That's some fantastic input you have there Ascanius. Cheers for that fella. 

How about instead of dismissing it as all been said before you try to give us an opinion of how you feel about it. Whether you think it should stay this way or whether you like the way it is now and then give reasons as to why. 

Who you are is what matters.

That has always bugged me. What your line did before shouldn't be a golden ticket to this life time. Every time you return to these shores, you should be working on a clean slate and be recreating your worth. Good or bad, the past is the past and you're a new person. I'm fully aware it doesn't work like that, and it mostly likely never will, but its how things should be.

Well, well well, Jono. My first thought is that my bloodlines' Fort was better than yours. Fort Hubcaps was superior, mighty - I'd say a work of the Gods, but we were so awesome that only the Gods could kill us. So there!

Maria takes a flask from her pocket and holds it to the sky in memory of Ziva, Midol, Prozac, Torgo_Nudho and all the rest before taking a swig and returning it to her pocket.

Anyway, Rank. Made men, below, dons, leaders, Godfathers, whatever. 

Yeah, it means pretty much shit all these days to these eyes. Rank is given out easier than the Czylharz name was under JakeLuciano, so why the hell should I respect someone for their rank these days anymore than I should respect people carrying the Czylharz tag? 

Even Godfathers have become difficult to respect on the basis of rank alone because there have been so many in recent months, and a good few of these have been complete and utter fuck ups. Leaders? Well shit, since our world was divided into districts, even my line has managed two auths. So clearly, we shouldn't set much store by respecting people based on ranks and positions. 

Made man basically means you survived for 11 days now. Nothing more or less. There are rarely requirements, even rarer that any requirements that do exist are anything particularly difficult, you rarely see people being held back - people basically just want to demand extra respect because they've survived. Fuck that. Cockroaches can survive through attacks of futuristic bombing technology, and I'm not going to sit and offer them my respect on the back of it. 

The problem that we have more than ever today is that we have so very many crews and districts begging and pleading for people to join them. If somebody doesn't give you your own way and hand you rank on a plate, you can leave this life and have your children try their luck elsewhere in our world. And there are so many of our leaders and Godfathers are people who before districts would probably have gotten nowhere near this kind of spot that can't practice anything that they might preach on rank because they don't seem to do anything much special themselves. 

It's really a wider problem that our world has. The more people are put in positions when they are basically anonymous but feel as though they can still demand respect on tap whenever they feel about it, the more people like me aren't going to respect people based on rank, but rather choose who to respect based on what we have seen them do and what kind of person we have seen them to be. 

I really don't know how we go about fixing it either, districts has put a certain demand on our world, and it is what it is. I'm not expecting the Gods to review their position on it, so I'm not sure where we go moving forward. 

One thing I WILL say though, Jono, is in response to this. 

People in a family position who are not Made+ - This one always puzzled me. RH, LH, HSL, Financier etc etc are all trust positions that should not be dealt out to associates of the family. They should be given to people Made+ and ONLY Made+

You say this, yet when you became RH to lronsight, you were not Made. Why not, if it is something you felt strongly enough about to come here onto the streets? I'd personally prefer to see you practice what you preach on this one before you do start to tell others that they should do it. 

When rw318 criticized my ancestor for putting someone below Made in my left hand spot, he left my family entirely. My great-great-great whatever Grandmother was sad to lose him, but he practiced what he preached on it. I can respect that, even if I don't like it. 

I knew someone would pick up on that! Heh, I actually knew it would be you that would pick up on it to be honest with you Maria. 

The thing with that is, while trying to hold on to your own principles as a person and thoughts about how rank should be appreciated and handled, you also have to have respect for those ranked above you and their decisions. 

It's the point I am trying to make. Putting importance back on rank with in our world starts with us but most importantly starts with the leaders. As they are the ones who hold the power to make decisions and rules that effect all of us here. So making decisions like putting people in lower ranks in to positions of trust needs to be looked at. 

Also, you know me... believe me when I tell you I called that waste of space an idiot!

Runs off before Ironsight gets here

I knew someone would pick up on that! Heh, I actually knew it would be you that would pick up on it to be honest with you Maria. 

 

The thing with that is, while trying to hold on to your own principles as a person and thoughts about how rank should be appreciated and handled, you also have to have respect for those ranked above you and their decisions. 

 

It's the point I am trying to make. Putting importance back on rank with in our world starts with us but most importantly starts with the leaders. As they are the ones who hold the power to make decisions and rules that effect all of us here. So making decisions like putting people in lower ranks in to positions of trust needs to be looked at. 

Well, I'm glad I didn't disappoint Jono, but I have to respectfully disagree with you here. If you have principles, you have principles. If they're strong enough to make you stand up here and speak, then they're strong enough for you to follow. Now, you know I have a lot of respect for lronsight and the decisions he makes, and my personal thoughts on the issue aren't what I'm putting across here, I'm merely challenging what you've already said.  

If you feel strongly enough about the issue of below made man hands, then when lronsight came knocking, you should've asked him to not put you in the spot until you'd reached made. 

It starts with the leaders, but we can all help it by not enabling leaders if it's something we feel strongly on.

"It starts with the leaders, but we can all help it by not enabling leaders if it's something we feel strongly on."

How beautifully put and you're dead right. I can only hope that everyone else here agrees and acts on it. Even if/when things are forced apon them.

I agree with everything Maria said. When my father first came here he thought getting his button was so cool. He worked his ass off for it  and it felt like some sort of acceptance, and gain of trust from the people who showed him how to tie his tie. That crew actually did the right thing because as he moved up in the ranks, the more things they were willing to talk to him about, and the more information they shared with him.

There isn't any respect for the person that out ranks you because leaders give us so much freedom of speech, and loose punishment for breaking rules etc. From personal experiences I should be dead right now honestly. I'm not sure how things can get fixed. Maybe a tighter grip from our supervisors and letting actions actually have a reaction? Who knows. You seem to have some magic voodoo Jono so hopefully this turns out for the better.

Leaders having a "tighter grip" on freedom of speech isn't going to fix the respect deficit Kal--El. Leaders, and indeed anybody who thinks they should be respected actually earning the respect of people rather than demanding it based on ranks that have been reduced to less than nothing because of both the mechanics of our world and the fact that this has allowed people to become both lazier and more entitled, feeling as though the bare minimum is enough, need to start reaching out to people and fucking earning it again. I do think that the decline in the necessity of street presence is a huge contributing factor to the fact that rank means nothing. Ask someone to speak on the streets as part of their ranking requirements and it pretty much makes you a puppy murdering maniac to many people, because it's more than others ask.

Pickpocketing - This should be based on rank. None of this "PP friendly" or "Not PP friendly" bull shit. If you out rank your intended target? Bloody well go for it. If you don't out rank your intended target... Leave him or her well the fuck alone. Have some respect.

I do understand where you're coming from, but respect isn't something that thieves are likely to take into consideration. Stealing from anyone, regardless of rank or stature, should be taken as blatant disrespect in my book.

Yea you're probably right. Thing is though, a lot of people want you to respect their bloodline more than they want you to respect their current kin. Of course your bloodline should get acknowledged but people go about it like this:

"My grandfather's uncle 2nd removed cousin was the great leader of such and such era! Give me the world!!!"

That mentality just fucks everything up. That, along with the respect thing, imo makes rank not matter much. 

p.s. I don't think street activity should mix in with rank. Not everyone has the ability to stand in front of people and speak. What if someone is putting in super amounts of work in every area, but they just hate talking in the streets? I heard that one of the recent GFs weren't really into coming into the streets to talk much. Just my opinion though.

Please don't yell at me IronSight ;(

 p.s. I don't think street activity should mix in with rank. Not everyone has the ability to stand in front of people and speak. What if someone is putting in super amounts of work in every area, but they just hate talking in the streets? I heard that one of the recent GFs weren't really into coming into the streets to talk much. Just my opinion though

I get what you're saying here Kal--El, but think you'll agree that it is a desirable trait to have. It could also work the opposite way to how you say, in that it could encourage people who might not have considered becoming active on the streets to do so, and subsequently find they enjoy it. In any case, the people who have the ability to encourage this to take place are crew leaders, and them setting an example to follow is desirable.

Sheamus turns back to Jono.

An interesting speech, and one I agree with the bulk of. I think it is important that rank is something that is earned rather than just given out like sweets. As I just said, I agree that a degree of street activity should play a part in earning that rank. I also agree with yourself and Maria that it is up to the leaders in this world to ensure rank actually means something beyond being alive for the requisite amount of days and being able to carry the requisite amount of drugs. Therefore, this approach would require a fair degree of unity between crew leaders; it is their prerogative to decide what makes people deserve their promotions, but for this to work such an approach would have to be broadly based on a consensus. As to what that should be is down to them, but it is apparent that without such a thing existing we can't move forward.

People in a family position who are not Made+ - This one always puzzled me. RH, LH, HSL, Financier etc etc are all trust positions that should not be dealt out to associates of the family. They should be given to people Made+ and ONLY Made+

This is something I do not necessarily agree with. I was myself made the RH of the late Godfather DanTheMan before becoming Made. It is a trust position, absolutely. But if a leader deems an associate trustworthy enough to grant such a position to them, that's their own decision. While I would agree there is a link between them, trust and age do not necessarily go together hand in hand. It is possible to demonstrate trustworthiness before becoming Made. I don't necessarily see why it should be an entirely arbitrary barrier if the person is good enough in the first place.

Rank has definitely lost its meaning. We have 489380332 Godfathers running around these days. This rank used to be hard to acquire and was something which was really looked upon as something great. That idea has become diluted with the amount that there are/have been around these days.

Regarding the pickpocketing, if someone is a Consig and they're mugging a Boss, this is an act of aggression. Yes they outrank them but they are also above the level of Made man, which is something that is meant to be sacred and untouchable. However I agree that as a Mademan you should have the right to Pickpocket anyone you like beneath you. I can understand some people enjoy pickpocketing and being pickpocketed, so those above the rank of Made should be able to make their own decision regarding this. Those that do not wish to be Pickpocketed as a Mademan and above should have their decision respected.

Mademan is another rank which has been diluted, it used to be a great honour and while it gives you more perks from the Gods, it just doesnt carry the same weight it used to. A lot of inexperienced leaders seem to be too quick to give this rank away and tend to focus on the amount of money a person seems to bring into a family as opposed to that persons character. Leaders seem to just willingly allow retards to become Mademen and this is something which they should suffer for if one of those Made's is to fuck up in any way, shape or form.

Positions of trust is tricky, RH, LH etc may be the descendant of the recently deceased and so in theory, the leader would know the son/daughter of the deceased well you would imagine and so despite this persons lowly beginnings you would assume that the trust would be there. Then again you know what they say about ass(out of)u(and)me.

Demotions should be used more regularly if necessary, but then normally you wouldn't expect your Mademen to fuck up. If you can't trust them, demote them.

Holding back...I have no idea why Leaders don't do this, it's as if they are scared to hurt their members feelings. It's laughable.

Regarding street speaking. Leaders should definitely have some kind of presence about them. Even if it takes someone else to write their speeches for them, they must have ideas and opinions. Voice them, don't be content with towing the line due to fear of being different.

I can't stress enough how important that step to Mademan should be for every single mafioso in this life. Do you trust this person that much that you are risking your own life to give them that button? If they fuck up, you risk your own safety as a leader since your decision making on who you can trust has come into question and therefore the same can be said about other members. This is not good for business for anyone.

People may ask how you can truly trust someone? Truth is you can't, but you can get a pretty fucking good idea via interactions and other means such as setting up a situation for them to follow as asked.

However I agree that as a Mademan you should have the right to Pickpocket anyone you like beneath you. I can understand some people enjoy pickpocketing and being pickpocketed, so those above the rank of Made should be able to make their own decision regarding this. Those that do not wish to be Pickpocketed as a Mademan and above should have their decision respected.

You already have the right to pickpocket anybody as it is. Whether you're able to live with the consequences, that's another story.

I do agree that their decision should be respected, but that's not to say it's going to be. There will always be that one person who could care less.

What happened to the days of Squad Leaders and there ability to mentor and lead their little groups. It was their choice if someone got promoted or not plus the upper three approval. "O" for the old days that were good, in some things better than what we have now. Rank is important to me.....friendships come and go here, like the street thugs.

Ox, I'm glad that was all you picked up from that entire response I made haha

Troy, those families were a lot bigger back then. These days there seems little point to having a sub crew. Although, the underbosses to the Godfathers could be considered as sub crew/squad leaders in a sense.

After sitting on the sidelines of this converstation, listening to all the comments spoken and points being made, Rose having collected her many thoughts together, stands up with her impeccable graceful movements, and shares her thoughts.  Usually her voice is soft spoken, but today her passion for the topic overrules anything else.

"I would like to thank you Jono for bringing up this topic to be discussed.  Is rank important?  It should be!  It is to me!  Why is rank important?  Well, who wants to work hard, put in the sweat and efforts nonstop, just to have someone else achieve the same rank status, and in some cases could even be promoted over you due to their previous bloodline, without them currently putting in the same effort?  Now I am NOT saying that everyone does this regarding being lazy, and expect their current member to be given whatever based on their ancestry, but yes I have heard of this being done expecting their bloodline to have entitlement forever."

Rose knows her bloodline does not date back as far as alot of other Mafioso present, but we all had to start somewhere, sometime.

"I believe that, sure okay your bloodline did something great and should be remembered.  Does that entitle you to a silver spoon and freedom to be lazy, handed things based off your ancestry?  Hell no!  Each one of my ancestors worked their ass off to earn promotions that were given.  Now I regret that my bloodline was not as vocal in the Streets as I am learning to be, but I cannot go back and change things.  I can only move forward, and continue to change myself for the better."

She looks to the future full of hope, change isn't always a bad thing.  Some changes are needed for us to thrive in this world of ours.

"I would encourage very strongly hard work over expecting anything to be given.  Being a leader is a great responsibility, and given that privilege of being trusted by your own current leader to become a leader of your own family, is telling you that they are confident in your hard work, and believing you are capable of making something of yourself in this world of ours.  I would encourage Street speaking.  Yes, yes, there are far too many people who just do not like to speak in public, for whatever reason.  Perhaps they lack the confidence in their writing, because I know I did at first.  The good news is, with encouragement and inspiration, confidence is easy to obtain and maintain.  Those that have encouraged me do not always like to receive public credit, but i do my best to acknowledge thanks as often as possible to them."

Rank has to mean something, and it has to have value, or else any civilian off the streets is able to come into our world, and tell a Godfather what to do, how to run his business, and his Family.

"Made Man should hold the significance it is supposed to have.  Pretty much anyone of us can stay alive the designated 11 days.  Awesome!  Congrats!  You managed to stay alive, so your leader should obviously entrust you with a new title and rank promotion.  When did the number of days come into determining how your efforts and hard work are valued and noticed?"

"As far as the demotions and holding members back, well I have no experience in dealing with that yet, as I have not been a CL before."

"The pickpocketing issue can be debatable.  I myself being Mafiosa believe that going out in this world of ours, respect is given in regards to stay the hell out of someone's pocket that is not my own."

(OOC:  "Now being this is a game, and pickpocketing is one of the achievements, it can be looked at as fun for trying to best another player, and seriously it is only a max of $5k.  I usually pickpocket CA's, unless there just has not been any online for a long time at night in the city I am currently in, OR I pickpocket my friends for pure fun, and vice versa.  Hell I even mugged my GF, but in all fairness the first time he told me I could, and the second time, well he was gloating in chat, so I mugged him IN PURE FUN, AND I gave it ALL back both times!!!  Third time he might not be so lucky haha!!   My 'Pickpocket' status is visible in my profile, and I set it as it is simply to go in tune with what game I AM playing.  It IS the Mafia!!  Who the hell is gonna just LET someone come pickpocket them?"

Rank is important in what we do, it shows the necessary hierarchy and chain of command, who your superiors are and all this, but it does seem like rank can be handed out to just about anyone with the so called required specifications. Everyone's idea of who is going to deserve a promotion for what is going to be different, whether it be earnings or recruiting, or just their general demeanor.
Of course you may find yourself the hardworking mafioso to be overlooked by a crew leader's preference because of a previous legacy that person had left and they can put minimal effort in but become a don in an instant.

Of course rank does mean something but it does seem to mean less in more recent times. And picking up what Rose was saying, minimum day made is sad thing to see, this goes for just about any rank, anyone can survive the 11, 14, 17, 20 etc days but can they really show you worked hard enoguh in such a short time?

Good things come to those who wait.