Unfortunately I don't have all the old quotes but I'd like to discuss these quotes and the other ones deleted,

So for the betterment of mankind, how about you guys just drop this and move on.

(Oooooh look, two words that are not gender specific, but can be distorted to be so)

*mankind*, *guys* <-- the entire point of the above line.  I kind of thought I was showing that words can be genderless, but, some people may be jaded enough to look for malicious intent in innocent words - I honestly didn't expect someone to pipe up and prove how true this joke actually was :/  I guess the irony was completely lost on you.

Yep, and this still holds true now.  The changes we made in the game require searching and finding certain words and replacing them with others.  Changing rank names is a whole different ballgame that requires every page load knowing the gender of the person viewing the page, and the gender of the person(s) you are currently looking at.  It is not a one time change, it is extra queries every single page load, adding extra code to many many places.  It's just not feasible then, nor is it now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6UAYGxiRwU

I am unsure if your reply is powered by miscommunication, guilt, or some perceived tension between us.  I would have made a comment about "Wow, dont get your panties in a twist" because you seem so bent out of shape over something that was not directed at you - but I'd be afraid that despite that saying being applied to men and women 100% equally here in the states, you would take it as a gender bashing comment and get all up in my shit even more.  So the best way to press forward here is to just stop all changes.  You've made me regret wanting to spend my time and resources to make the game genderless for those that would enjoy the change.  I've opened up this can of worms without realizing that the Maria's in the world wont be satisfied until the ranks are God Persons, Wise Humans, Made Lifeforms, Left Hand Entity, and Right Hand Support Staff.

These are quotes of Squishy's posts that were deleted. I don't have full copies of the comments, I just have sections because the originals were deleted and my original response was to discuss the wording of each of these blocks of quotes but I reserved my comments out of respect for the Administrative staff and decided to get others more suited for calm debates. Obviously they failed, and in frustration I repeated what happened. Posts were deleted, Squishy was condescending and antagonizing in my opinion, and my Left Hand did nothing but express her opinion on the difference between Right Hand and Right Hand man and what leaving that out of the gender neutralizing move would look like in her eyes. Seeing as I wasn't even told why I was demoted I'm left to assume I was admin demoted for stating that posts that seemed to be the justification for banning my member were deleted and expressing my opinion that some of Squishy's comments to that member were antagonizing and condescending, which is actually a very popular opinion.

I'm not claiming there was a conspiracy, I'm claiming that the trigger for my member getting banned was completely unjustified. I'm claiming that the reason stated on her profile is a bunch of old reasons many of which she's already been punished for. She had committed to changing the way she acted around the administrators of this game and got banned for old reasons despite changing her ways. If she had said anything offensive or personal, I would've been fine with this, but she didn't. She asked for the terms Right Hand Man and Left Hand Man to get changed to Right Hand and Left Hand with conviction. I'm not accusing anyone of anything other than what I've said, I'm stating what happened in an attempt to appeal to reason despite what the overwhelming majority of people say about this game's staff in these sorts of matters. I'm saying that by calmly and rationally bringing this forward, you should reconsider banning her for old mistakes because many of your players have been punished or even suspended at some point and have changed their ways. Why would I or anyone else previously punished invest any time or money into this game if people are being repunished for old actions, including actions previously punished? This whole thing is terrible for the site, terrible for Squishy's reputation and terrible for my district. What I'm asking for is for reasons and clarity if my assumptions are wrong, and if they're not I'm asking you to just reconsider your actions and do what I believe is truly best for the site. Only ban people for things they've done recently or if they recently repeated an old offense, and not for having a differing opinion.

In my opinion, this would be better served as a conversation in private between those involved because it really has nothing to do with the vast majority of us.

I don't think bringing this forward in front of everyone will be for the betterment of the game and is very unlikely to achieve the outcome you're hoping for.

To be fair Romwulf, Squishy stated he should created a new thread on it as the discussion was being held in another thread and he didnt want that thread derailed with the above discussion. So I guess Squishy himself has given the go ahead for the discussion to take place in a public forum.

And frankly, given the public nature of the banning and the unknown nature of all the reasons behind it, many members of the public are quite bemused and understandbly annoyed at the actions taken of someone that is seen as a valuable member of the community and they all wish to better understand the steps that were taken and why.

I respect that but I greatly disagree, Romwulf. If the administrative team would like to prove that they're not above reproach then it's in their best interests to show that here, as for myself I personally believe too many things are done behind closed doors or without explanation and this is me just doing what I think should be done. If I want others to be more public and open, I myself have to be open and public as much as I can be.

I would too be interested to hear a bit more about this story. 

Izzy, I'll be straightforward with you. You know me... we had different opinions at times, but I've always tried to help you when I could, may it be with some testing or else. 

And it's with the same spirit that I feel obliged to express myself here. There are two points I would like to address.

First of all, doing things like that behind the scene is never good. As far as I know, or have heard about, Anna was banned because you have had too much about her, the trigger being her last post in that gender thread. However, deleting every conversations linked to it, or everything Anna might have posted in the past week... is really not the way to go. Nor is leaving vague messages about her past actions as the reason why she was banned.

You either have good reasons to do something, or you don't... But if you slip everything under the bed hoping everything will magically disappear, it doesn't even matter anymore, because the second option becomes the default one for everyone. And you can't even blame us for it... that's all you have left, all the possible good reasons having been deleted.

Such kind of cases is really a perfect example of when you can't afford a lack of transparency. Because from what is left apparent to the majority of us, is that a member with past faults who have already been punished for them... Is just being punished again, all for expressing her opinion in a respectful manner which differs from yours. From my point of view, from our points of view, with what we have at my disposal, what you left to us, it doesn't sound correct at all. It even sounds like a shame.

You could argue that I haven't read/seen all that you did, but you're the one to blame for that, not me. Don't expect us to react in a comprehensive way... if all you have left is interrogation points and facts that, taken alone and out of the context (that you removed), are really angering.

Even if you don't like it, you're in a position where, sometimes, you really must be more careful about the way you communicate about events. Yes, it's not easy, but it's even harder to deal with a whole bunch of people who feel like your personal opinions take over your impartiality as an administrator of this website... I'm not saying it's the case. What I'm saying is, for quite a bunch of people, that's the only logical choice left due to your lack of communication...

I have a second point to address. First of all, let me state that, yes, I'm in lronsight's crew, but for all I care, I could be elsewhere or not even playing at all. I'm really not involved in the game at the moment... But what I'm seeing and have seen bothers me enough to bring me here.

Again, if you have legitimate concerns/problems with someone, you are free to keep them for you... as long as it does not deeply impact the game and community. As soon as you decide to take major sanctions, the least you could do is leave some explanation and be transparent about it. 

But if, on top of that, you decide to take major actions even against the people who raise concerns about the first decision, all you do is just lighting up more fires.

Especially if you use very personal ways of punishing them rather than more common ones. An admin jail should be the default choice in such cases. But, no, you decided to take this extra time and insight in the situation and you demoted that player who was only waiting to min time godfather. 

I'm sorry to say that once more, but from my point of view, it feels like a personal attack. And this exceptional sanction deeply impacts one crew, deeply impacts how the leading district of a city has to deal with its politics for all I know, and as a consequence, deeply impact the whole game in way.

An admin jail wouldn't have had such consequence. That's why I feel angry in a way. I feel like something exceptionally wrong has been done, and worst than all, I feel like you, Izzy, tries to push everything behind the scene, as if nothing has happened, without a single word.

And I really don't like it.

The solution is simple though. Transparency. And if you feel things get too personal for you, I think you have a whole team of competent and comprhensive people around you. Even if I know you hate it, sometimes, letting someone else take care of it, someone with an objective point of view on the situation, someone who's not deeply involved, is the best solution.

That's all for me I think. I just hope you will take the time explain a bit more about what happened. And fix the things that might be needed to get fixed.

much like tyrion said ironsight was basically told to make a thread to discuss this, i hope this thread isnt the reason for his DD as he was basically told to do so if he wanted to discuss it further

ive just noticed some dd's have been revived

http://mafiareturns.com/news/uprofile.php?id=791738

and am wondering that since some ppl were dd';d based on backing up that person should they be revived as well? as the dd wouldnt have taken place if the initial dd wasnt executed

Willing to speak, just not in pm. Offered to speak in #crewleader , but that's not pm. After being DD'd by an admin for "being disrespectful" still yet to be clarified as to how, which leaves me to assume I was being disrespectful by pointing out that posts triggering Maria's death were deleted. I'm not going to bow my pride to someone who wronged me, and I'm not gonna live in fear of an impartial admin and if you're unwilling to show that you can cater to a simple request for someone you unjustly punished. Why should I trust you won't just punish me for the first reason you can down the line if you're gonna act like this over me pointing out that you were being antagonizing and condescending, and that you deleted the posts that apparently triggered a DD? You wronged me, why should you dictate the terms of how we have a conversation? If I'm uncomfortable speaking to you without witnesses I'm uncomfortable speaking to you without witnesses. If you can't handle that, I can't, but it just makes me wonder why you were afraid to speak in public. You say it's because I'd try to rally a crowd, how could I do that if you did nothing wrong? Who would oppose the admins for a player legitimately in the wrong?

At the very least show people what caused the DD and explain it. The things that can trigger DD's shouldn't be vague or secret. You're killing one of the last street speakers your game has left because we're both stubborn assholes and I won't budge in this instance because I'm not the one in the wrong. So the next time you wanna talk about the streets being down or desolate, just remember who scared off one of the last real street speakers you have left. You did. Who scared off one of the most intriguing members who brought tons of people into the community? You scared off TeQ. The community is shrinking and both you and the community can't afford that. I'm losing an account but who knows how many people just got nudged a little closer to leaving for good? If you wanna speak to me about improperly punishing me, you have my email and maybe I'll keep giving a good effort for the players I like. If not, best of luck, if the streets are an indicator of anything... you're gonna need it. I can't be mature in this situation or see the bigger picture, it's true, but neither can you.

I'm just going to say one thing and then leave it at my own opinion.

The past few days could've been avoided. I'm not a hard guy to talk to at all, especially with things like that. But I must also admit that I was uncomfortable with talking to you Izzy after the past couple days. I, personally, never had a problem with you or any of your beliefs (even though I might disagree at times). And personally, I felt that was being made out to be some kind of terrorist ready to cause some kind of riot on the game that I had no fricking idea what even pertains to it, when in truth, I'm probably one of the easiest going guys who tries to look at things from all angles. I think a lot of people would vouch for me on that part.

It just saddens me and upsets me to see things eventually got to this point, when in all reality, it was over overreaction, old grudges, and a few unjustable actions thrown here and there. That however, is my opinion on this matter. I hope that people can just see how much this has really irked me and touched me. I had to watch my district being DDed, in what I believe was unjust all around.

I'm bothered, I'm not going to lie. Things shouldn't have escalated to this over something so small as a disagreement on opinions, which happens between users and users, and in reality, it should happen with user/admins at time to. But I feel like the whole users versus admins thing that keeps going on and popping up at random times..... This isn't just because of the users, and I feel like that's what it's being directed at, when in reality it's ALL of us alike that always bring this tension. Sure, the users don't have the majority opinion in a lot of things that go on around here. This has been on a side of admin faults as well, who have left me in a mess of pain of trying to salvage all the hard work that me, mine, and everyone who logs on for those of us in The Loop everyday. I think what hurts the most about about this whole this is this: I lost a lot of key members to ME and US that was done prematurely. We are a tight district, so what did you expect? We looked out for each other and cared about each other just like it should've been. To watch someone who had done so much for me, Maria, was taken at the slightest thing... it hurt, especially for as well as she has been an amazing member under my control, because she respects me. And hell, it might even my fault that she got DD'ed, I approved the message because it was strictly opinions and she knew my lines of what she can and can't cross. Maria has never even tip toed on my morale line while being with me.

It all bothered me as I love my crew, I had a friendship/respect with Izzy that I'm not seeing is being returned back, and now something that has been taken out of control, has cost me the hard work we've put in that wasn't even taken by the users themselves. 

My opinion, the gun was jumped on a lot of things about this, when it could've been prevented. But I am a bit glade that Izzy is going to try and do what he has applied here about being more open to conversations, I just wish it was before I felt like my district was taking most of the hits because we care about each other.

That's my two cents, and my intentions are not trying to come of as disrespectful. Just how I honestly feel and I wanted to put it out in the open since it was my district that received the brutal end of the punishments for caring about each other and what we hold beliefs in as wrong and right. We are a tight district, but we share our opinions which bring out own certain element to this game.

Sorry if this causes any problems, as that is not my intention, but I am a Godfather on my district that was damanged from this, so I felt somewhat obligated to at least share and elaborate my insight on the situation that I, my district, and those who have gave me 100% day in and day out have worked so hard for and almost seen taken completely away over something so silly from the outside, that could've been handled better, not made me call off work in RL to come and save whatever I could salvage.

Those are my open thoughts, so that not only Izzy knows how I feel, but everyone else who wishes to hear my insight.

Only thing I really regret is feeling like I've been hiding in the shadows and not speaking my honestly opinion to those who might want to hear it.

Thank all of you who have read this, it's straight from my heart and to this game, but more to the people who have busted their ass for me 24/7 that I'm not going to watch something happen effect my district as a whole and not give my comments about it. That's not fair to those of you who have supported me 100%, as I should be there to share my views for them any day. And hey, I'm a Godfather. I've always considered it my job to speak up and share my thoughts, regardless of how others might view them.

And I'm sorry that The Loop has been put in a negative light, and I hope the outsiders just realize that we care about it each, and causing problems with admins was certainly not a goal of ours until it all hit us in the face out of nowhere.

We will be thankful for what we have, glad that this didn't spiral even more out of control, and move forward.

And WWI, if you ever see this, thank you. I authed you for all the right reasons and you brought some life into an aspect of this game that takes a motivator like yourself to get the flame started. We had a goal, we hit a speedbump, and it popped one of our tires. But we wouldn't even had a chance for making it this far if it wasn't for you. Thank you sincerely, old friend.

i find it very odd that what led up to the events of the past were made in OOC (out of character) yet characters were killed off, sure it was a DD which could be aimed at the person behind the mask however im sure there is ways to ban and not kill off the person while everything is figured out (this i think would have saved a lot of hassle)

i can even speak from past experience with maria we never got along infact far from it but even i found it unjust that she was dd'd over a difference of opinion

perhaps down the road DD's could be put to a user vote or something to avoid these types of situations (maybe a game suggestion for a later time) but i can definitly understand peoples hesitation to speak about these events due to the fact it seemed anyone who spoke out recieved a DD, so why would more people speak out if DD's were handed out so quickly and bluntly, sure theyve been reversed (some of them) but that doesnt reverse the damage that was done to both morale and to those who had to find new homes because a dd was reversed

You keep saying you are fearful of being in a PM with out witnesses, but isn't this what logs are for?  You can share entire conversations.  We tried to speak in public, and while you claim you can easily ignore everyone, I find it difficult to hold a conversation with 5 people at once while having insults hurled at you from 3rd parties.  I didn't peg you as the type of person who needs to bring your entire entourage with you to handle a conversation :/  Your unwillingness to talk one on one to get the situation resolved without the backup of your friends overwhelming the conversation makes me wonder why?

Still no explanation or clarity into the DD. 24 hours later and you still can't be bothered to even explain what the original DD was for. There's a simple response for the rest, but no point seeing as you can't even be bothered to explain what the original DD was for.

No one was killed off over a difference of opinion.

Then she was randomly killed out of the blue at the exact same time you had a difference of opinion, quite the coincidence that it came 3 minutes after that post you deleted.

If you look at the number of people who spoke out in a constructive manner, you would see that none of them are dead.

In situations like this, cooler heads will eventually prevail.  I understand people wanting to rush to the aid of their friend, but if you drive by and see a friend of yours is getting a speeding ticket - the best thing to do is not run up to the cop and spit in his face - it just hurts your friend and causes the situation to get bigger.

And the cop thing is just hilariously wrong, this is closer to a crooked cop beating a citizen for no justifiable reason and then beating anyone else that gets involved. Yeah the situation gets worse, but it's human nature to act when someone's being attacked for no reason.

You're killing one of the last street speakers your game has left because we're both stubborn assholes and I won't budge in this instance because I'm not the one in the wrong. So the next time you wanna talk about the streets being down or desolate, just remember who scared off one of the last real street speakers you have left. You did. Who scared off one of the most intriguing members who brought tons of people into the community? You scared off TeQ. The community is shrinking and both you and the community can't afford that. I'm losing an account but who knows how many people just got nudged a little closer to leaving for good? 

Absolutely pathetic. Maria isn't the only one in the streets, there are plenty of others. Not giving them any acknowledgement is terrible, specially coming from a guy with a goal to save the streets. Maria is not the last street speaker. The streets are not the world and she is not Atlas. 

You aren't the first person to try to use "If I leave many will come with me!!" line. You also won't be the last. Each time someone uses it the game doesn't die. Players come and go. 

Open your eyes Diego. 

Absolutely pathetic. Maria isn't the only one in the streets, there are plenty of others. Not giving them any acknowledgement is terrible, specially coming from a guy with a goal to save the streets. Maria is not the last street speaker. The streets are not the world and she is not Atlas. 

Quiet Eeps, the number that have not only been out there but stayed out there is disturbingly small. Obviously your definition and my definition of a street speaker vary greatly because I don't think 15 posts or one thread makes you a street speaker, it takes a long constant presence so that people can get to know you through your writing. Not only that I said one of the last, not one of the last 2, one of the last.

You aren't the first person to try to use "If I leave many will come with me!!" line. You also won't be the last. Each time someone uses it the game doesn't die. Players come and go. 

Definitely not, and obviously it'll probably get used again but as the community continues to shrink... scaring off players for whatever all of this nonsense was about sure as hell isn't helping and is more than likely taking MR one step closer to its ultimate demise.

Open your eyes Diego. 

Shut your mouth. You honestly just came out here solely because you have a longstanding grudge with me that you're too much of a pansy to admit holding.

To: Squishy
From: Diego
Sent: Aug 09, '14 05:33
Subject:

I'm at work and I can't get on IRC.

To: Diego
From: Squishy
Sent: Aug 09, '14 05:32
Subject:

Are you ready for a conversation in PM?

I was at work, I'm not avoiding you, my work computer has filters that the IRC page sets off.