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Recent Events Started by: lronSight on Aug 08, '14 09:08

No one was killed off over a difference of opinion.

This is the kind of thing that makes me think you can't possibly believe the crap coming out of your mouth. As Diego said, and I don't think I've ever agreed with him before, so this is sort of testiment to it, it seems pretty damn coincidental that 3 minutes after the 'differing of opinion' there was a DD. Either you're flat out lying to yourself and every user of the game, or you're mentally insane. My money's on a bit of both.

Maria and I have spoke in PM, she has been revived.

Iocaste and I have spoken in PM, he has been revived. (Then subsequently shot by a player)

WhereWasI was unwilling to speak in PM, so he was unable to be revived.

DaKurlzz's actions make him unable to be revived.

DD's should be non-reversible. Regardless of the circumstances, an account should never be revived once it's been admin wacked. If you are admin wacking people and then reviving them, in my opinion, you're doing it wrong. Are there not admin jails for things that may later be worked out? If you are serious enough to admin wack someone, that should be final. It shouldn't rely on you not being in a good mood, or just feeling slightly more mentally stable at that time.  (This is coming from someone who had a GF account DD'd twice and revived both times, that should never have been revived either (It shouldn't have been DD'd either, just jailed, but you get my point.))

However, let's say you want to go down this path of illogical admin wacking and reviving every account under the sun, even though I know certain accounts make it a lot harder to reinstate everything once revived, therefore creating more work for you, which is why I don't understand why you'd do it. Let's say that.

Maria was revived after private conversations. Ok. Can't really argue with that.

Iocaste was revived after private conversations, but then shot because his tags were deleted due to you DD'ing him. How is that fair exactly? Like really, how?

WhereWasI/lronsight is unwilling to speak in PM, but willing to speak in a controlled environment with a 'witness'. How this is unreasonable, I don't know. Madness.

DaKurlzz, who is obviously me, is unable to be revived. Fair enough, that's the way I'd have wanted it. I was an arsehole, no doubt about it, but that's me, and I don't give a shit about public opinion, and everything I said still rings true and I'd say it again and again if it got the message across. I'm very loyal to friends and don't appreciate them being shat on by what is essentially, a kid on an anthill with a magnifying glass, that nobody else in the word gives a shit about. So because of this, I'm going to come at you if you do that, end of story. My only regret is that Simplicity put a trust in me that I hope I haven't completely demolished, as I consider her one of my few true friends on here. 

You're the worse kind of person to be running a game that people can spend thousands of dollars on, and lose it all because you can't think straight and essentially have no one to answer to. I've experienced it first hand, you've personally attacked me on many occasions when I was Godfather, for IG reasons and OOC reasons, both of which you were very out of line about, (laying everything on one person because of their position in the game is wrong from an admin point of you, and I feel sorry for the current Godfathers if that's what's happening to them too. Also, what I do is my own personal business, regardless of if it's with a 'friend' of yours.) but you think it's all fine because the next day you are suddenly mentally sound and can apologise, just to do it again within a week.

I've already had a funeral post deleting for 'not knowing the full story' even though I did. Please don't just delete this one to try to save as much face as possible. No chance of that though, eh?

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Absolutely pathetic. Maria isn't the only one in the streets, there are plenty of others. Not giving them any acknowledgement is terrible, specially coming from a guy with a goal to save the streets. Maria is not the last street speaker. The streets are not the world and she is not Atlas. 

Fairly sure he was talking about himself there FourLoko. You really need to pay a little more attention before trying to jump down someone's throat. Think we all know what happened last time you did that... 

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I spoke earlier about this being best dealt with in private and having seen the subsequent responses I still think that would have been the better option because nobody has covered themselves in glory. Regardless of the specifics, DDs and then revivals never look good because whether it was justified or not, it makes it appear like it isn't and that doesn't reflect well on the game.

What I would like to suggest to prevent a recurrence in future and having seen this and many similar threads over the years, is the adoption of a formal player code of conduct and a complaints procedure for people who feel they have been mistreated. I've never really understood why there is no intermediary liaison between the players and the coding staff, some sort of customer services, rather than having the person with their finger on the trigger doing the negotiating because that is rarely going to end well.

A formalised set of guidelines, which outline what is acceptable conduct for the players to adhere to beyond the site rules, would go a long way in removing arguments about the acceptability of how people behave, because you would have agreed to it. Equally, if this was followed by guidelines on how breaking of these rules will be dealt with by the game administrators, then responses will be measured and appropriate. If, after this, the person is still aggrieved, a formal complaints procedure will give them recourse to appeal their decision. 

I think adopting these policies would add in a layer of responsibility and professionalism that seems to currently be lacking in, what essentially is, a business. 

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i agree romwulf there needs to be a middle man or a jury or something to execute these dd's even just admin jail them while the process is being carried out would help alleviate the dd's and then the reversals

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lolsy starts walking away, pulls out a wrench and throws it at Maria,

You're the last hope for the streets no matter what anyone else says. No one else has the drive and conviction, so have fun with it or let em rot!

Desmand, between this comment and the one I quoted earlier, <font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">he's giving all the credit to the streets being alive to himself and Maria. Yes, I understand that he was talking about himself, but he's said goodbye like three times. Made it clear that he's not going to play this game anymore because of the way it's ran (but keeps sticking around for whatever </font>obsessive<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)"> reason). So, with him gone, he's passing the "we are the only ones that keep the streets alive" torch to Maria. Who:</font> isn't the only one in the streets, there are plenty of others. Not giving them any acknowledgement is terrible, specially coming from a guy with a goal to save the streets. Maria is not the last street speaker. The streets are not the world and she is not Atlas.<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)"> It's okay if you can't see where my thoughts were coming from, we can agree to disagree or just disagree. </font>

Quiet Eeps, the number that have not only been out there but stayed out there is disturbingly small. Obviously your definition and my definition of a street speaker vary greatly because I don't think 15 posts or one thread makes you a street speaker, it takes a long constant presence so that people can get to know you through your writing. Not only that I said one of the last, not one of the last 2, one of the last.

We have the same definition. Sorry bud. Just saying there is some great potential out there, besides you and Maria, and if they aren't acknowledged at all, what's the point. Sure, you can argue with me all day that people should do it without being rewarded and some do, but we are all human and acknowledgement feels nice. I don't like to play the I've been here for longer than you have card, but well, I have. I started to play MafiaReturns when crew leaders were expected to be in the streets. If you didn't talk on the streets no one knew who you were, you were nothing and no one cared for you. Denam just wrote a thread about it and it covers all that in more detail. For a guy with 6 threads, 56 posts and brings new ideas and ways of thinking to the streets, I'd say he's a street speaker. Even with the 15 posts and one thread, sure, compared to old standards that's absolute shit. But the game plays differently now, adaption is healthy. I'll take that over nothing. 

Shut your mouth.

 If I want others to be more public and open, I myself have to be open and public as much as I can be.

You honestly just came out here solely because you have a longstanding grudge with me that you're too much of a pansy to admit holding.

Holding a grudge is letting someone live rent-free in your head. What is the point of that? What is the point of holding a grudge? There isn't one. It's absolutely pointless. I have no need and obviously no want to hold a grudge against you. 

I came out here because I don't train a gun. I don't like doing it. I like writing. I like to rp and I like to post in the streets. I'd like to see the streets grow and I will help as much as I can. I don't even need the acknowledgment. I'll do it because I want to do it. Not for fame, popularity or to gather a posse and go on a witch hunt. I came out here for the people that have those 15 posts and 1 thread, the people making an effort of being in the streets when the majority of the game isn't. When the majority of the crew leaders aren't. What if the people that are new to posting in the streets read what you said about yourself and Maria, being the only ones doing anything in the streets, how discouraging. 

When we teach new players how to play this game we give them confidence to play it, to feel comfortable playing it. When new faces or even old ones, come to the streets to post, they shouldn't be judged on how active they are or how many threads/posts they have. That shouldn't matter. Supporting them, giving them confidence - that's what will help the streets grow. By making it a safe place to post. Not meeting them with a tldr reply spotted with insults and put downs. It's possible to have discussions and debates without putting each other down. 

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What I would like to suggest to prevent a recurrence in future and having seen this and many similar threads over the years, is the adoption of a formal player code of conduct and a complaints procedure for people who feel they have been mistreated. I've never really understood why there is no intermediary liaison between the players and the coding staff, some sort of customer services, rather than having the person with their finger on the trigger doing the negotiating because that is rarely going to end well.

This is a grand idea, if you can find a handful of people capable of checking his or her egos at the door.

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Desmand, between this comment and the one I quoted earlier, <font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">he's giving all the credit to the streets being alive to himself and Maria. Yes, I understand that he was talking about himself, but he's said goodbye like three times. Made it clear that he's not going to play this game anymore because of the way it's ran (but keeps sticking around for whatever </font>obsessive<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)"> reason). So, with him gone, he's passing the "we are the only ones that keep the streets alive" torch to Maria. Who:</font> isn't the only one in the streets, there are plenty of others. Not giving them any acknowledgement is terrible, specially coming from a guy with a goal to save the streets. Maria is not the last street speaker. The streets are not the world and she is not Atlas.<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)"> It's okay if you can't see where my thoughts were coming from, we can agree to disagree or just disagree. </font>

It is my belief that the streets will fall apart without a vibrant presence and I don't believe there are any other active speakers capable other than Anna. That doesn't mean there aren't any other street speakers, it means I believe they will return to the state they were in before my efforts without a grand effort from someone like her. If you have a problem with that, fuck you. You were more interested in derailing street efforts than helping when they were struggling so I don't care what you think. I've openly stated others are street speakers whom I looked forward to seeing develop a presence who're yet to really do so on a grand scale, I don't care if you've noticed or not.

We have the same definition. Sorry bud. Just saying there is some great potential out there, besides you and Maria, and if they aren't acknowledged at all, what's the point. Sure, you can argue with me all day that people should do it without being rewarded and some do, but we are all human and acknowledgement feels nice. 

Alright, oh wise one. Which people have I greatly wronged for not saying could be the face of the streets? Make your list, then ask them if they give a rat's ass about whether I think they can do more than speak. If they care, they're incapable, if they don't maybe I misjudged them. When you speak enough, you piss people off. Most speakers don't have the drive to produce enough quality material and many others can't stand the unnecessary bullshit from mongs like you who look to criticize for any reason. Now onto they need the acknowledgement, I got the opposite of it and I pulled it off, so why should I give it to anyone else? There's no need, you're being a child.

I don't like to play the I've been here for longer than you have card, but well, I have. I started to play MafiaReturns when crew leaders were expected to be in the streets. If you didn't talk on the streets no one knew who you were, you were nothing and no one cared for you. Denam just wrote a thread about it and it covers all that in more detail. For a guy with 6 threads, 56 posts and brings new ideas and ways of thinking to the streets, I'd say he's a street speaker. Even with the 15 posts and one thread, sure, compared to old standards that's absolute shit. But the game plays differently now, adaption is healthy. I'll take that over nothing. 

Actually you play that card on people a lot, for those of us who remember your LoveGun account and the ones that followed shortly after. I also started when they were expected to be in the streets, so glad you have that experience over me. I've also told Denam he's a street speaker and that I look forward to his works so long as he makes sure to watch the way he words things. I just don't think that he's ready to be the most vibrant speaker paving the way.

 If I want others to be more public and open, I myself have to be open and public as much as I can be.

You're out here plenty, mostly covering topics including me or centered around one of my commonly known characteristics. Obsessed much?

Holding a grudge is letting someone live rent-free in your head. What is the point of that? What is the point of holding a grudge? There isn't one. It's absolutely pointless. I have no need and obviously no want to hold a grudge against you. 

Said by someone who knows how I'll react and keeps jumping at the chance to poke at me. Obsessed much? I've never once led into one of our arguments, it's always you with me retaliating.

I came out here because I don't train a gun. I don't like doing it. I like writing. I like to rp and I like to post in the streets. I'd like to see the streets grow and I will help as much as I can. I don't even need the acknowledgment. I'll do it because I want to do it. Not for fame, popularity or to gather a posse and go on a witch hunt. I came out here for the people that have those 15 posts and 1 thread, the people making an effort of being in the streets when the majority of the game isn't. When the majority of the crew leaders aren't. What if the people that are new to posting in the streets read what you said about yourself and Maria, being the only ones doing anything in the streets, how discouraging. 

You like writing, do you? That's why you came out to poke at my bloodline again? Who are you even kidding anymore? You want the streets to grow and yet you're wasting your time going at me in the OOC forums. You do it because you're a vindictive bitch looking to strike at me because you hold a grudge. You have no reason for being in this thread but to come at me, you're such a pathetic bitch... 

When we teach new players how to play this game we give them confidence to play it, to feel comfortable playing it. When new faces or even old ones, come to the streets to post, they shouldn't be judged on how active they are or how many threads/posts they have. That shouldn't matter. Supporting them, giving them confidence - that's what will help the streets grow. By making it a safe place to post. Not meeting them with a tldr reply spotted with insults and put downs. It's possible to have discussions and debates without putting each other down. 

I don't hold players by the hand, I tell them to have fun but I'm honest with them about what is a good target number to be considered a decent earner or hitter. I love that you also accuse me of judging new faces... seriously? Find one instance where they weren't insulting other people. I don't judge players on the number of posts they have, but I won't call them a street speaker for putting one one-liner on the streets either. You know nothing of what makes the streets grow, it has something to do with cultivating new writers, but if you wanna help new writers inspiring them and setting standards is a hell of a lot better than holding them by the hand and telling them anything they do is good.

I can hold debates without insulting, but the moment a mong like you shows they have petty intentions or leads in with insults this is what they're gonna get. Once again, fuck off Eeps.

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I'm sure such people could easily be found. They don't necessarily need to have anything to do with the game and could reasonably be employed from anywhere if required. All it would take is an understanding of the rules and the corresponding actions. 

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In my opinion, one of the things that stands out in this conversation is that the admin jailing system should be used more often, instead of an admin wack for instance. The DD should be the next step if no solution/agreement can be found meanwhile, and that the administration team decides that it's the best solution for everyone (obviously, I also think that the DD can still be used if the player's fault is unacceptable to start with).

I really want to push for that.

I think the admin jailing system is underused, while it could be beneficial for both parties. Less work for Izzy or any other admin, and it's still a clear sign that the player should behave (and will be DD eventually if no solution is found). And since most DD are reversed after some discussions... Well, admin jailing seems like a perfect fit/buffer zone for that.

Even in lronsight's case, it seems like a decent solution. Both parties still seem to search a way to communicate that would suits both of them. It would seem like more logical to me that, in this case, lronsight was in jail until either an agreement is found, or the definitive DD is decided.

I hope you can give us your opinion about it Izzy. That would be one step in the right direction for a better future handling of such kind of situations to me, and hearing your thoughts about it would be nice :-)

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Point out one instance in this series of replays where Fourloko has insulted you Diego. You can't do it, you're attacking her and insulting here for no reason. I get it, you're upset that you lost your account. That negative energy being focused on FourLoko is making you look like an ass.
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I would really like to see the admin wacks not be reversed even after conversation. It is a decision admins make and should stand by. Otherwise it is just saying that the person can act however way they want and little is done in consequence. (At least that is what it appears like).

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once a better system is in place for dd's i would also like to see dd's not reversed but there has to be a middle ground before it gets to the dd part

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Shut up, Phedre.

These admin wacks shouldn't have ever happened anyway. The only way to make ANY kind of remorse for their mistakes is to undo it, but it shouldn't ever get to that point for quickly clicking the admin wack just because you have that power and no one else can do fuck all about it.

So to say someone who shouldn't be revived on admins fault is bullshit.

Go back to your hole, at least the rocks will listen to you always shitty opinion.

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To elaborate, you want a rule to change because you don't like someone. You don't think I didn't see your cute ass remarks on your profile after mine were getting admin wacked? You aren't subtle or sly at all, just a bitch.

A self-centered bitch, who only cares about getting a +1 over the eyes on people you don't like, not what's best for the game and the behavior between users and admins.

So, fuck off, Phedre. Not everything is about you and how you can fuck over the people you have personal grudges with, and I'm here to call you out on it. It's ALWAYS about you, no one else.

So kindly back away from the hypocritical topics that you're just going to suck ass in to get your way because it fucks over the people you have grudges with.

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I would really like to see the admin wacks not be reversed even after conversation. It is a decision admins make and should stand by. Otherwise it is just saying that the person can act however way they want and little is done in consequence. (At least that is what it appears like).

So what you're saying here is 'I don't like a person who was admin wacked and my personal dislike of this person means I didn't want them to come back'.

The same person you sacrificed a crew for trying to shoot, because of that same personal grudge.

I'll be honest, your credibility is completely shot to pieces.

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Point out one instance in this series of replays where Fourloko has insulted you Diego. You can't do it, you're attacking her and insulting here for no reason. I get it, you're upset that you lost your account. That negative energy being focused on FourLoko is making you look like an ass.

I'll take word twisting for 500, Vaelin.

I'll follow it up with condescending wording,

We have the same definition. Sorry bud

I'm fully aware I've done it myself but seeing as she has an almost 100% rate of twisting my words or 'misreading' them, I'm led to believe it was intentional, but most importantly Vaelin, what point does she have being out here? What's her reason? Please, inform me if I've missed this obvious reason other than the one supported by her pattern of expressing thoughts about me every time she does.

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What I am saying exactly is that I don't like the admin wacks and the continuous reversal. This isn't about a specific person or anything else. Half the admin wacks are of people I don't know.

Just because you want to insinuate my opinion is due to not liking someone how about you get your head out of your asses? Just for once at the very least.

I stated in general just as many others have before me. If you don't like it? Tough. I have just as much right to post an opinion as anyone else.

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And fyi Mako, not everything revolves around you either.

How is what I suggested not best for users? Others want to see admin jail used. That's good! That's not different from what I am saying in the least.

You want the admins to be credible, then maybe they shouldn't be reversing their decisions so much? Maybe they should use the admin jail more often. What is wrong with that?

And I have had a DD and a ban that neither was reversed so I am just asking for the exact same thing as has happened previously.

I fully agree that Admin wacking should be last resort.

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When a player is revived by admin after a DD it brings the decision making of the admins into question.

Everyone can make mistakes but we have seen too many of these reversals. I know everyone can make mistakes but I think too many of these DDs have been a result of being pissed off at users for one reason or another and its completely understandable as everyone gets pissed off, but when you bring it to a game where people are investing their money then the reasoning for these DDs needs to be solid and not just a decision made when feeling annoyed or not having the entire picture. This place is a real community and people have rallied together over the years to support the site through donations and promotion. When people invest their hard earned money into the site and then they get decisions made against them that may have been made in error then that becomes a lot more personal. Using recent events if someone like Iocaste had invested any money into his account I would be majorly pissed off due to how things panned out and it's not just money its the time people put into their accounts too.

As many have said Admin jail seems a lot more reasonable and I hope its something the admin use more. It will stop a lot of the problems that come with the DDs.
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Still no explanation beyond, "There was that post in OOC" and "It obviously had another message" despite the fact I've asked for further clarification as to what was wrong with it multiple times. I've asked you to make it public and you can't be bothered to even mail me a reason. Top stuff, Izzy, completely legit DD seeing as you can't even justify it, which is what I'm gonna claim since you're not willing to do it unless it's in a pm. Why are you afraid to put in public? Because there was no real reason, you were just mad someone called you out on a bs DD. No point in reviving seeing as you're gonna be this childish means even if you did you'd DD me in the near future for some other bs reason, the game isn't worth playing if an admin is just gonna DD people because he's throwing another bitch fit.

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