Achilles, this is an interesting subject you bought up and everyone has some valid points. My beliefs in general of 'this thing of ours' is pretty old school, I agree that in years gone by all the money we had would be kicked upwards for the betterment of the family/district/city. Over the years how we generate money has changed, as you have said we can now generate from non crime related activities and maybe they have an end goal at what they are aiming for. As Zephyra said unless you know each person and their role in their family it is hard to judge on whether not they are being greedy or whether they have a mission for their family.

I think Jono makes the most relevant point if you are communicating with your family about why they need to kick up the money then it gives them a direction. Otherwise they don't see what that money is going towards. Some have no idea the cost of protection as if your bloodline is new here and you're kicking up your money to your leader who is already IWP and forts are already maxed out they don't see what that money goes towards apart from maybe a gambling habit. Like Jono I have been fortunate that my family and now district worked hard towards a goal which we achieved.

Achilles I like your stance to a point as it brings back some traditional values but be careful because not everyone believes that traditional is the way forward. 

Hearing all the talk about being insanely well protected, Chocolope rounds the corner and his interest perks up as he listens to the other Mafios'.

I can only agree to a point, I recently came back into this life of crime after a very long extended vacation on an island far far away from here. I was having such a good time but all the booze, drugs and women seem to have left my wallet quite dry. When I came back the first thing I noticed when I was looking through the crews to contact someone for protection was that I was getting blown up by offers to join everyones crew. I thought to myself, now why would they be wanting me to be their sponsor, they don't have a clue who I am and they just want me to join just like that. Even received a few invitations without a single word from that sponsor! After ignoring all these mailings and offers I went back to looking at the available crews to join, the next thing I noticed was also shocking, for tax rates the majority of the crews were listed as insanely low, so I assumed that meant most things were not taxed whatsoever. Things have changed drastically since the last time I visited these shores, tax rates are nearly non-existent, you can send associate invites without speaking to them and never speak to them once they have joined and if by chance they are just looking for trouble and start shooting other sponsored member that sponsor is left alone. Why? He has not done his job as a mafios at making sure this guy is going to do their family good, he didn't even make an attempt. I understand that we get a lot of clowns running around here shouting and pointing their guns around and waving them and accidents happen but it is still that sponsors responsibility to make sure who he is inviting is for the better of the family and that crew leaders/hands responsibility to make sure their crew knows this before they pull the trigger and give them the ability to send the invites. With all this being said I felt kind of lied to when I was looking through the crews to see who I wanted to join on the tax purposes, if everyone wasn't collecting taxes from crimes how were they getting money to support our family?!?! I've seen first hand where a family takes no taxes out of crimes up front but expects weekly payments of millions of dollars. To me this is just wrong, you give off the impression to new members that this is where your hard earned money is all yours, except we want it at the end of the week. Don't give someone control of what you expect to have in the long run, especially money. If you feel you aren't getting enough money to support your crew, it's as simple as upping your taxes. You can not expect to have your members hold onto their money through the week in their bank turned savings account and send it up. We have a casino just begging your members to come try their luck at it for quick riches and we all know most of the time that casino will take your money and not give it back up. So to reiterate, if you do not want your low ranking members to have money in their pockets and body guards at their back, up your taxes. Take that money before they have a chance to spend it because thugs that spend every last penny at the casino and take every opportunity to win credits from RR will keep their money theirs and you wont see what you feel is truly your share. With that, I leave you.

Chocolope turns to walk away, pulling his zippo from his pocket he lights his cigar as he walks down the street. Waving to a few friends he spots along the way.

I think some people are approaching this issue without their Mafia heads on. There is no worthwhile explanation that can justify why it is acceptable for someone who is effectively nowhere in the business having access to millions of dollars and hundreds of bodyguards. The situation in the organisation or the greed of the individual at the top is irrelevant because a Goomba should not be better protected or wealthier than the Boss as that is nonsensical. 

Disallowing this sort of behavior isn't a reversion to tradition, but rather a reversion to the Mafia which should be encouraged at each and every opportunity.  

I have a question.. Are leaders not capable of making their own money? Just to flip things around I thought I would ask.

If a goomba can access millions on their own, why can't a leader?

Are you suggesting we don't take tributes now, Zephyra? Why don't you ask Drexler if he's capable of making his own money?

Fortunately, my Godfather Cantillon has given me the responsibility to run my own family, if he feels I'm out of line I'm sure he will come to me. Never the less, thank you for your lesson on how to gain tributes.

I don't wish to debate with you, since I'm aware that it doesn't tend to bode well for people when they get into things with the Gods. Alternatively though, you could become mortal, rank up and remove me from power if you don't like my ideologies.

As someone who is new to this game, I appreciate all of these posts. It shows me a lot of past information about this game, how things used to be done compared to how they are done now. It shows me that I didn't necessarily do everything the right way with my first account on here.

I may not donate enough to my leader but I donate when I can. I have donated millions to my crew leader over the last 33 days. I could have donated more but I was stupid at times with my money. I admit I've played Poker on here, I've bought perks that I probably could have lived without, with credits I'll never get back.. This has taught me what not to do with my future accounts, so I can't necessarily say I regret any of it, but I can wish that it were possible to make different decisions in the past.

I admit that when I was a low level I bought body guards and trained them, because I didn't realize that I didn't need body guards. At the time I was thinking that if I donated money to this game, I wanted to have body guards to protect my investment. But now I see that body guards are not important. Or at least not as important as making sure that the HQ is fully fortified (which even while buying body guards, I still tributed to the crew, even though it wasn't forced), that Jono has all the body guards he needs, etc. I know now that I shouldn't have bought body guards, that I should have saved that money instead to invest into the crew more. That is another lesson I will take forward into my future accounts.

I never walked around town with more than 500K in my pockets if I could avoid it. If I had profit from drug sales, or organized crimes, felonies, petties, etc. I tributed it up to Jono. He has always made it clear to me and the fellow family members of Fort Izzel what the money goes for, just like he said in his post. It made it a lot easier to donate money knowing that my money wasn't for him to waste. It was for him to make himself stronger, make the HQ stronger, and in turn that would help me be stronger and more protected. 

So all it really boils down to is how each crew leader leads their crew. You never know how anyone leads their crew unless you are actually in it. You can't force your members to give you money or they won't do it. They will keep it for themselves or they will suicide. I was lucky and got a crew leader who was tried and true in this game, who has worked like crazy to get where he is, who doesn't force his members to give him all their money, but tells them what the money will be for and says they can donate if they WANT TO.

Thank you.

Let me just add quickly to that... You have donated more than what I could have hoped for and exceeded my expectations AnnieOakley. :-)

I am glad you bought yourself BG's at the beginning to be honest. 

It isn't a question of doing fine or how to make money because we (and most other leaders honestly) do this anyway. The point of this, which seems to be missed, is to question the selfish mentality of some people which is totally and utterly unrealistic. It isn't to clamp down on the little guy who is working hard for their family and then treats themselves to a BG or two, or ten, with money they have made. These aren't the people who are at fault because they are doing exactly what they should be. It is the people who invest in themselves at the expense of their family. You know, like totally the opposite of how the mafia is meant to work?

Socrates waited patiently for his turn to speak. When he found a moment of silence he took the opportunity to make a step forward and speak, while he threw away his cigar.

From my personal experience I understand that the matter of survival in a family is a team work. First must be ensured that  leader of the family is safe. He needs protection and the protection needs maintenance. Therefore it must be clear to all the members by their leader, why it is important to pay tributes to their leader.

If after first try to explain this, still the members show indifferent behavior to donate to their leader, one more time is needed, with more clear words to be explained, to all members the importance of donations. If again the members don't change their mind, then it is up to the leader to choose what will be the punishment. The most simple thing he can do is to hold their rank. But again, this is not the point. Why to have people in your family, who they don't love the family. And the same is for an associate, why to work for someone who you don't want to support?

I'm a total bodyguard whore, but in the short time I've been here I've tributed over 50 million.

I'm pretty sure when I was in jail as a lower ranked player and you saw a 20 next to my name you didn't think... I'm not gonna bust her out because she is greedy having all those bg's. 

...since you have a huge pee pee, I will forgive your rude and insensitive comments.

Achilles I would not suggest that a leader doesn't take tributes. I suggest a leader stops whining about not getting any and look to find out why. Work to improve themselves I suppose I would go so far as to suggest. I am going to have to agree with Squishy.

As far as Drexler goes, sure I will ask him. Actually I already have and had conversations with him. I actually like him as a leader so you know what? I tribute just about every spare dollar I have.

Romwulf I have already gathered what the point was but bringing it up it has also brought out more selfish greed. Us low ranks get that leaders at the top but I don't think trying to generalize all of us as selfish will work in your favour. There is greed at the top, same as at the bottom.

For someone supposing they understand the point, you're doing an excellent job of misunderstanding it. We are neither suggesting that everyone who is low ranked is selfish nor are we is whining about tribute (we made $25,000,000 in a couple of minutes today, so that isn't a concern).

What we are saying is that someone looking after themselves rather than helping the family is a waste of space with a bad attitude. They are not acting as a mobster would or should and therefore their behaviour is indefensible. 

Well maybe the leaders with those members should do something about it? Otherwise it clearly isn't a big concern to them.

However, you should look after your own. If they are not tributing, worry about that. If they are, congrats your members don't think you are a waste of space.

I am saying that you can't judge a group of people if you aren't their leaders. Not every situation is the same. That would be like me saying because my line has had some extremely bad leaders that all leaders are shit. That would be outrageous and very much untrue.

We all lead in our own way. Unless what we are doing directly effects another crew, I don't see why what we do should cause such concern from you or anyone else.

Like -Draven- taxes are turned off here. If someone in my family decides to get bodyguards I explain to them just what they are for and how they are likely wasting money (if that is the case.) If they still choose to get them, well they earned the money they are spending so it is up to them.

Even the family I have who have gotten bodyguards or keep a fat bank account have always been generous with contributing to the family. That bank account or their bodyguards may give them a sense of security (no matter how real that sense it.) I have no problem with that. I am confident that if we were in need of funds for whatever reason my family would kick up substantially more than we need. I say "we" because we are one. When we ask for something, they are on it. When we need volunteers we get an abundance of them. When we have a goal, we work together to achieve it. It works for us and that is all that matters.

From a CL's POV I can sort of understand where you are coming from.  My grandfather was once a CL and he would certainly put his family/city before himself and to see someone of little rank selfishly hold out for his own well being will strike a nerve.  

And in my opinion its two ways to look at it from a solider's pov.  If I was entering a CL's establishment and I had much respect for this CL and I seen much potential in what we were building, I would certainly give my last to support our cause.

But if I was a young solider who has little to no experience then I wouldn't see the significance in kicking up most of my cash.  So with that being said I would have to fault the leader and the upper structure.  Not referring to my current or past homes, but I've seen countless amounts of times where a new mobster will enter our life and the upper structure don't take the time out to groom the mobster to how things work around here and then they get mad when they mobster don't do whats expected of him.

So with all that being said the argument could go both ways but a major factor is if a new mobster doesn't even understand why he has to kick up or what his money is going to then that is a major problem with the leadership