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Overreact much? Started by: BlackBetty on Sep 15, '14 00:52
I've been playing this game for a number of years now, I'm not very vocal in the streets but feel the need to speak up about something I have felt annoyed by for quite some time now. The reason I am bringing it up here is so that I can get to say what I want without the conversation being railroaded and taken in another direction or debated to the point that my issues go unheard or get missed.

My issue is with the current hitlisting going on by Izzy, which I see as an overreaction, as a result of his interpretation of a players street thread. Couple this issue with some of Izzy's DD'ing accounts and then reviving them, it seriously makes me question his judgement and makes me uneasy that anyone of us is potentially at the mercy of his temper.

To use the information that has been made public, namely the conversation in #divinelunacy. Izzy is using the method of donating to charity (in order to make it seem a plausable enterprise) in order to exact some revenge on a character he didn't agree with is appalling, imo. I don't particularly care that someone called Izzy out by saying 'come at me', shouldn't the owner/admin be able to show some restraint? Was there not enough evidence for Izzy to just DD this person if he thought it was such a terrible offence? Would that have been viewed as controversial so therefore he is taking an elaborate way around by making a show of his vengeance?

These are just some of the questions that pop into my mind about this whole situation. You may also believe that I am bias as this is an extension of my family on the receiving end of this charade, however, that couldn't be farther from the truth. I am speaking out as ANY one of us could find ourselves in this position.

This is not the first time that people have fallen foul of this kind of treatment when having a disagreement with Izzy. The various DD's and revivals are just another example of bad parenting on Izzy's part. If it's not an obvious/gross infringement of the site rules, then why not just admin jail the person and go away and think about what you are doing, maybe consult with the other admins/staff to get a feeling if DD'ing is really the best course of action. Which, judging by the revivals, wan't the best decision after all.

I just feel that this situation is shocking. It should never have gotten to this over a street thread, or rather, an interpretation of said thread. Yes, we are only human. Yes, we get mad. Yes, we can overreact. But seriously? This is a ridiculous and unprofessional response to a situation, imo, obv.

The only people who win out of this situation are those charities.
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I don't particularly care that someone called Izzy out by saying 'come at me', shouldn't the owner/admin be able to show some restraint?

Anyone banned?  Nope.

Anyone killed? Nope.  (Other than them shooting their own member for the hitlist money)

Anyone jailed? Nope.

Anyone irc banned? Nope.

Anyone given warnings? Nope.

Nothing has happened because frankly, no one is breaking any rules.  I was called out to handle it as a player, so I am. 

 

 

Was there not enough evidence for Izzy to just DD this person if he thought it was such a terrible offence? Would that have been viewed as controversial so therefore he is taking an elaborate way around by making a show of his vengeance?

He doesn't deserve to be DD'd.

 

Izzy is using the method of donating to charity (in order to make it seem a plausable enterprise) in order to exact some revenge on a character he didn't agree with is appalling, imo

Because if I purchased credits to put up on a hitlist, I think it would be unfair if a portion of the money came back to me via a paycheck.  So by directing the money outside of the system, it affords me no advantages that could ever be called into question.

 

The only people who win out of this situation are those charities.

I am fully aware of that, as is every other player in this game.  Sometimes you do something that you feel is the right thing to do. I felt his character came accross a lot harsher than was necessary to every other crews low rankers.  Its something that I feel my character would react to, as I would react to in real life.

I have used no tips, tricks, advantages, or anything else that gives me any leg up over any other player here.  He asked me to create and account and knock him out of power, why should every other person here be allowed to do it using the same exact method, but somehow I can't?

You can't even use the excuse that I could be cheating or have an unfair advantage, because as you can see, there is none.  In this case, I am really confused why you have the right to accept his challenge, or stand up for what you believe in, but I don't using the same exact methods and tools that you do.

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My two cents on the topic. Squishy you did not start engaging him from a player account. You posted in the thread, debated, gave your opinion and pushed him as Squishy. When he gave you a challenge that's when you made a player account. Posting as a character from an admin account is what I thought the game was trying to get away from. Admins can no longer hold positions of power in the game on game characters. This was done to try to distance admins from any accusations of interference or cheating. 

Helpdeskers do not post in in character discussions and I am sure it would be looked down upon if they did. Admin and staff accounts should be unbiased and here only for the betterment of the game as a whole not dealing with individual debates and matters. Heck even most things that were in the past handled by staff have been pushed back onto crewleaders so that staff do not interfere with game play.

As I stated to you last night. If what Achilles said was that terrible the crewleaders and Godfathers would have done something about it. It was not the place for an admin to try to convince them otherwise. He did not hurt anyone with his words more so than many others in history have, which I also pointed out to you last night.

Your posting as Squishy was wrong in my opinion. Your advertising of your intentions on IRC as IzzyCreamcheese which everyone knows as owner and admin of this game was wrong in my opinion. I asked if when you talk on IRC if you are in character or Izzy, you said you were not in character you were (insert your real name here). This failure to disconnect the admin role and the character in the game is what I think is wrong and why others are disagreeing with your actions on this matter.

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Fair point, all staff will now try to do its best to always keep dual identities to make it easier for the viewer to understand what perspective something is coming from.

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I don't really want to turn this into a discussion about why it is ethically questionable for you, as the owner and coder of this game, to directly attempt to influence events, because I think that is old ground which has already been covered and, frankly, the answer is obvious to everyone already. Instead, I was hoping you can explain to me what it is your Thug character (who didn't even exist at the time) found so objectionable in Achilles' thread that it has resulted in this vendetta?

Maybe it is just me being pigheaded, but I can't for the life of me envisage a scenario where someone in the Mafia comes into a windfall of several hundred millions dollars and doesn't give their boss a taste of it. Can you imagine how that would even play out? "Hey boss, just made $250m, which I'm going to completely spend on myself, but thanks for your protection and connections that facilitated me being able to do that. You're a pistol." I don't know about you, but it doesn't seem likely to me that this individual would escape with their legs intact, let alone their life. 

He certainly used some choice language, but come on, we are meant to be guys who came up on the street in organised crime. Just because we, as players, are capable of constructing complex sentences that are grammatically correct and demonstrate a diverse vocabulary, doesn't mean we should have to. This is meant to be a tough old world, inhabited by not particularly nice people, so perhaps a thicker skin is required than is being displayed as I bet some of the real mobsters said a lot worse than Achilles did.

If the other crew leaders felt he was being offensive to their members, it is up to them to defend them, not you. Seemingly they didn't find it particularly abhorrent as some agreed with him and others simply explained their position. Nobody put a bullet in Achilles over it, even when you were offering them $250,000,000 to do so, which should tell you how much support there is for your mission and how little offense his words actually caused.

So to be honest, I think it far more likely that your objection stems from the admin of the game seeing a potential threat to future revenues rather than as a Thug in the Mafia. I can almost understand that; if all leaders adopt a blanket policy on this, it may dissuade people from dropping large sums of money into the game in one go to buy credits if they are expected to tribute some of their earnings to their bosses. Whilst that kinda proves how selfish it is of the individual in question, that they might be put off by having to act like they are in the mob and pay tribute on earnings, I can at least appreciate it as a legitimate concern for the finances of the game. 

If that is the case and that is where your objection actually lies, I'm sure it can be handled in an entirely different way to this ultimately misguided crusade against Achilles. When playing the game, how you "would react to it in real life", unless you're in the mob, should be pretty irrelevant to how your character reacts to these sets of circumstances. We are trying to get people to play their characters, actually role-play like they are in the Mafia and I'm not sure that is what you're doing here. 

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I think that the admin/s here they made a mistake, that the players capitalize it. But both were aware of what they are doing. The admins they didn't keep distances between their role in the game and the players/customers.  Of course they did that to make the game more friendly, which is something that i like it a lot and this is why i am here for many years. But many people used that, on their benefit. From the first time I joined, everyone was complaining to the admin group, as if they were co-owners to the game.

For me, the admins could just lay back, don't talk to any players at all, only the absolutely necessary, and watch their pockets getting loaded with cash. But they don't do that, and probably they earn less money because of that, and the majority of the players is trying to use this fact on its own benefit.

After all, this is the game, you like it, stay. You don't like, leave.

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Whilst I found the whole situation completely bizarre, I didn't really see any problem with the actions taken.

I agree however with Whatsername in the fact that the dialogue begun under an Admin account and not a player account, so there wasn't any "player" offended and thus the entire issue has been created due to the admin being offended by the comments.

That doesn't mean the comments weren't offesensive, there are plenty of people that would agree with Squishys thoughts on the matter than don't have the financial clout to do what he is doing. So is he simply fighting the case for the little guy? I don't know. Personally I read the comments and wasn't impressed by them, but I wasn't offended. If I were a thug and this man was an option to join, I think I would just keep on moving and join someone else, I don't think his views were strong enough for me to decide to bring him down. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion and own views, even the admins.

If that means they make a character so that they can try their best to obtain justice in the same manners that you and I do, then why not? I even wouldn't have been bothered had he just paid the money the same way we do to buy credits, the fact he paid the money to Charity is a nice touch imo, it shows how strong he feels about the matter that he has given his money away to aid his cause.

I dont see this going anywhere though. As much as the young thug is loaded with Cash, no-one takes the hits on offer because its most likely their life is going to be ended soon after if they do. Whilst 250 million would allow their next of kin a good start, it isn't always worth the life of their current character whom they would have to have invested a large amount of work to be in a position to shoot the man in question.

But thats just my views on the latest issue.

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Tbh this thread is very contradictory and I'm not entirely sure what it's point was.

You say Izzy DD'ing and reviving makes you question his judgement. He instead uses in game methods to try and get something done, and you question that asking why he didn't just DD him. What?

People were DD'd and revived, yes. Either because they apologised, or Izzy thought he overreacted I don't know. Either way they got revived. Would you rather he DD'd someone for a reason that didn't deserve it and left them dead? Or even if they did deserve it and apologised he still left them dead? Personally I see it as a good sign that Izzy will either admit that he made a mistake, or that he is forgiving when people apologise.

 

On a final note, it's not exactly unheard of for in game actions to be taken over stuff said on IRC, or for people to try and exact revenge on a different account to the one that was hurt/offended/whatever. Izzy using in game methods to show he doesn't like something or someone's methods, is exactly what everyone else does too.

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There is so little faith in the leaders doing anything. So Whatsername that was a laughable comment. There are plenty of times that leaders should step up and do something but instead they sit idly by while players have to go to Izzy.

So for once if Izzy actually decides he wants to create a character to see justice done then why not? It's not any different then anyone else posting a hit if they decided to.

I am still not a fan of Izzy reviving DD's but at least this time he didn't just DD Achilles. Didn't just throw him in jail. So for that I can't question Izzy's judgement. He doesn't seem to have acted rashly or in a poor manner. In my opinion.

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There is so little faith in the leaders doing anything. So Whatsername that was a laughable comment. There are plenty of times that leaders should step up and do something but instead they sit idly by while players have to go to Izzy.

I can't speak for all leaders, but I have already spoken for myself and will repeat again - I haven't any real reason to shoot Achilles and claim the massive bounty as I don't feel strongly about his comments, whilst I don't agree with them personally, I hardly find them provocative enough to provoke this sort of reaction. I know you were being vague and possibly referring to other situations where leaders perhaps haven't stepped up, but I think it is important things remain on point for this thread and not drift into personal views on other situations with leaders.

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Eh, you guys might say that you don't see anything wrong with it, and some of you might even defend it, but you're still wrong.

I remember reading several statements from Squishy that he was going to take a step back from in-game decisions and in-game politics. I've read it several times because it has been a broken promise (several times), like a broken record. For it to really happen almost seems like a magic of its own.

Why did Squishy say things such as that he was stepping back from in-game decisions and politics? Well, he seen how much it actually hurt the game and realized it was the right thing to do. Or so he claims whenever he says it 2-3 times a year. Regardless of what you call it, it's admin interference at the end of the day. 

I've said it before and I stand by what I said: MafiaReturns is always an users versus the admins because the admins make it that way. They're the ones allowed to choose and pick their battles, and that they do. Nothing more, nothing less. It's a reason that some people won't return to this game, which is a shame and a disappointment in itself. Wish it wasn't like that, but seems it won't be any other way, and being a district that has been a victim to unjust DD's from admin, I can't say that I really blame people for leaving after their characters death. Even though no one is particularly getting DDed in this situation, it's still wrong to get involved from the perspective of an owner/admin.  

Take it how you like, I wish initial promises would be kept and admins would just stay out of everything in game, but that's like asking for a miracle in itself. It's not their place to get involved, and that has been stated, cleared, and repeated by the admin before. What makes this situation any different? If you're the owner, you have to learn to be the bigger man sometimes and know what your job is here to do and not to do. It's called Business Etiquette. 

Just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth, which I'm guessing won't be much at all. But what I say isn't any further from the truth. Admin Interference is a big reason why people won't return, and it's an ongoing problem. If you don't stop it, it will drive people away from wanting to be here, or coming back for a new character for that matter. I'm sure that MR, admins, and players alike don't want that to happen, but it will if this crap doesn't stop.

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Mako,

Does it not matter to you at all that he invited me to do this?

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Doesn't realay matter to me tbh Squishy.

Personally I think it is bordering on farcial. I just cannot get my head round it.

I have just recently returned after a break and I was quite enjoying myself. This has just left me cold to it all.

I understand you have a view. But A chilled has stood in the streets, put his big boy pants on and spoke his mind in a manner that he felt befitted his status.

Now we are faced with a situation involving a prominent player and an administration being at loggerheads with no way of resolving it realistically.

The longer this continues the more people will get annoyed and leave.


I think you're both bigger than this. It's become a major issue now for almost every member of the site. How far are we going to go?

(Written on phone. If it makes no sense.)
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Now we are faced with a situation involving a prominent player and an administration being at loggerheads with no way of resolving it realistically.

 

There was plenty of time for it to be resolved.  After he challenged me to knock him out of power, I figured it was worth another try, I asked him to make a thread apologizing to the low rankers, and if he did it, then the matter will be dropped.  Instead he made a mocking apology to further progress the issue.  It could have been resolved realistically, and it still can.

It's become a major issue now for almost every member of the site.

Shouldn't it just be an issue for the challenger, and the person who accepted it?

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If squishy truely did what he has done as a player, meaning raised the hitlist money fairly and used his player account to post the hit...and was challeneged personally ..then perphaps there is no room to complain, fair enough, the argument took place between an admin and a player, but then to challenege the admin to take you down, through fair means, and on equal terms...well, if you make your own bed, you gotta be prepared to lay in it.

wether I am put down for having this view or not, it doesnt matter to me. I think if any man is personally challenged he should not be riddiculed for rising to the occasion. Just because the argument started on different terms, does not mean the situation can not evolve into something completly different.
There are allways two sides to each story, and reguardless of what anyone says there are two people to blame here..achillies for his widely disapproved thread. And squishy for taking upon himself to comment on it. However the situation escuilated, it did so into a different thing all together, where player was pitched against player. Where the terms were fair and the adversary's equal.
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Equal terms Genocide? I hardly think so, Squishy has done something he has always said he disagrees with. If someone wants to kill someone they should have to do the necessary work to do so yet all he has done is swipe a credit card and put up a stupidly large hit knowing it can't be bought off. This very idea is the reason so many people were against the credit market place in the beginning and if I remember correctly Squishy said it was unlikely this kind of thing would happen.

Even though it's his earnings and his money to do with as he pleases it is money that comes from the revenu of this game and because of that fact I will not be purchasing anymore credits with real money again.

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meaning raised the hitlist money fairly and used his player account to post the hit.

 The money was raised via credits purchased by donating money to 20x20x20.org, if I had purchased credits, then in theory, my paycheck would be going to the company, and in return, some may go back towards my paycheck - so I took the company out of the loop so that the conspiracy theorist could say that I had any advantage or discount that others do not have.

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Izzy, although I might not agree with the challenge, it just comes down to looking as a bit self-absorbed. You're the main admin here, it's expected of you to be the bigger man on things and do what's best for the game regardless. And I have a feeling you know an admin stepping on game politics and decisions is more unhealthy for MR than anything else. You've wrote a thread about how it wouldn't happen again and the reasons. And tbf, ths isn't the first time since then.

And Im sorry, but I don't care about the charities when in the end, it's only going to effect this game in a negative level to the point people won't care to come back here because admin keep interfering with decisons made in the game.
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Even though it's his earnings and his money to do with as he pleases it is money that comes from the revenu of this game and because of that fact I will not be purchasing anymore credits with real money again.

So now you want control over what I spend my paycheck on?  I made $235 dollars last week and worked approx 70 hours.  That is 3.35$ an hour.  I really don't think you are in a position to say that I can't take my paycheck and rather than spend it on pizza and beer, to put it into here.

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Did I say that? infact I believe I said the complete opposite said it's your money to do with as you please. I merely stated that I will no longer donate to this game because of what has happened in the past few days. This is the one game I do actually donate money to and I have been doing so for a long time, I play GTA V a lot yet I don't purchase in game cash when new DLC comes out I would rather exploit a bug in the game to afford what I want yet I would never do that here, infact I have over the years pointed out bugs that can be exploited in the game.

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