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Drawing a line. Making a Stand. Started by: Brendan on Sep 28, '14 01:08

Having visited the streets a couple of times in the last few days Brendan had a God awful headache. It may have been because he had been banging it against a wall for the last 5 minutes or it may have been his sheer frustration. He couldn't help but feel if he didn't let out the words from his head then he would end up shooting some daft fucker for spewing garbage from their mouths. He knew it had been said in these streets before and he knew that it had been said many many times in the street before but people were still forgetting. Standing up he shouted above the hum of the streets praying the people who needed to hear this heard it.

Listen here one and all. For I am just about sick to the back teeth the way these streets are heading. Having had a discussion with a few fellow family members I have decided to come out here and discuss what I view a rapidly declining way of life with you all.

You see our world is built on that of organisation. We deal in organised crime. How is it organised? By rank. We adhere to a code of conduct set forth many moons ago and one that stands today. You have your Boss. They rank higher than you. So they tell you what to do. You have their hands. Who are their most trusted men. They are respected because the Boss respects them.

You then have the 'Made' Members of the family. These people are respected because they have been blessed by the hand of the Boss himself. They have received his blessing and are part of his inner ring. Any attack on them IS AN ATTACK ON THE BOSS THEMSELVES!

But it isn't anymore, is it? Any Civilian, Thug or Gangster (or Goomba, Earner and Wise Guy) can wander up, openly disrespect a Made member and face repercussions amounting to very little. OR SO IT SEEMS. Let me make that bit very clear. I don't know what you do in your HQs but I will say this. Some of the words uttered on these streets over the past weeks has seen very little punishment that is noticeable by the masses. I feel entirely sure if I were to openly disrespect a member who out ranks I would be sat before Whatsername answering some very awkward questions.

Surely disrespecting a Made member higher ranking than yourself is punishable by Demotion or Death? I know people may say this statement is a bit disrespectful. Whats it got to do with me what people do with their own members and they would be right. I don't want to focus on the past but the future. So please understand I am trying to be constructive.

Now, before I go any further I just want to do a couple of examples for the morons who want free speech. You don't get freedom of speech here folks but if you did then there is a right and wrong way to address people. It's as follows

Made Man Crewleader: "All Thugs should give me all their money"

Disrespectful Thug: "I am not giving you any of my money. Why should I? It's my fucking money. I am going to shoot you. I am going to get someone to shoot you. You're shit. You will die."

Respectful Thug: "Sorry but I will disagree with you. With all due respect I don't think I should give all my money to you when I work equally as hard for it. I will tribute up my fair share to you so that we can work together to make the family stronger. But I feel demanding all the money I earn is not the way to get me to work harder."

AMAZING CONCEPT. Both replies say the same thing. But one is said in a way that shows you respect the person and the rank. The other does not. One should get you dead. The other will not. Disagreeing with someones ideals is perhaps not a great way to go but it is not open and blatant disrespect. Can we please understand this?

People now reply to Made Member as if they're of equal social standing. I cannot understand their logic. To spend days, weeks, months or even years working your way up an organisation. For some young arsehole to stand before you and address you as an equal? Surely this cannot be right? Surely this has to stop? Surely this community is not happy about it? You tell me? Are you happy that you badge of honour, you being Made, counts for so very little on these Streets at the moment?

I understand you cannot stop the Civilian and the Thugs from doing these things. But once they become a member of a family you have a choice. You have options and I feel it's here we must begin.

So, what am I getting at you wonder?

I think it's time that we, as members of this world, go back to basics. People are told what is right and wrong. That people are rewarded when they do right and punished when they do wrong because thats the way it should be.

Do I have an answer that will magically solve all of the current problems our Streets possess? No. It will take the Godfathers of the Districts to come together and come forth with something they agree on that defines where we go from here. They are free to do nothing. They may feel everything is fine and I am completely overreacting. I may be. They have earned that right through the time and effort they put in to far out rank me. I am but a humble Boss from New York whos ideas and concepts seem important to myself but perhaps not to them. I get that and accept it.

But even if they do not come up with a hard fix. I feel even as general street dwellers we can take a long hard look at how we are addressing people, take a deep breath and begin to act like the Mobsters we are meant to be. If you follow the rules, follow what you have been told and respect the ranks of others we will see far better Streets for it in my opinion.

I believe that we must introduce something before the rank Of Made Man, such an honour and privilege, is once and for all tarnished for good. I just hope some, any of you feel the same as I do and your standards have not been eroded over time to be left where we are now. I hope you have enough left to stand here now and refuse to take it anymore.

Sitting back down Brendan rubs his temples. Knowing what he has just said could be seen as a one man crusade he sighs. But at least his headache is gone and who knows? Perhaps people will sit up, react and offer some way forward from where they currently stand. Surely it's not just he who has felt standards are slipping?

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Ranking has been becoming a huge issue for a good while now. I've discussed suggestions regarding ranking standards several times, but nothing has been done. Why? Well, it would require a collective motion to set a standard for say the rank of Made Man. Is this hard? Not particularly. However, it's still not that easy to get everyone on board for something like that. Is there an incentive not to promote people? Not really. Theoretically, there's only a benefit to having people Made Man or higher in your crew. There's a risk to promoting someone to Made, but people don't seem to worry much about that. If leaders could come together and discuss options, it would help lead us to a better community, and possibly a more respectful community. 

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I was once again, wandering the streets for something interesting until I saw another interesting speech.

 

"I have to agree with you, Brendan. I see that most of the thugs and other associates today have grown rather disrespectful. My bloodline has always lived according to one rule: Respect everyone. I call my superiors formal titles like 'Sir' or 'Ma'am' while I address my colleagues and subordinates casually but still with respect because respect is a one-way street; You respect someone, they will respect you. You disrespect someone, they will disrespect you and disrespect is one of the leading causes of death in this life of ours."

 

I then sat down on a bench, waiting for the discussion to progress.

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I am glad to to see someone who feels the same way I do Vengeance. Anyone who lives their life by those principles will go far. I can see why you have gained your button.

Ah BloodySpikeS. It is good to here from you. It's a bit worrying what you say though. If you recognise that ranks have lost their values and that promoting people beyond the rank of Made Man is no longer a risk surely we have gone wrong somewhere?

I do not understand why leaders, as a whole, would not sit down with you and make this world a better place? Is it the sheer effort to do it all? If someone, like me for example, did all the legwork and wrote a set a guidelines, rewards and punishments would that make it easier or is it coming to an agreement that is the sticking point?

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Hearing his friend Brendan talking, he stopped to listen, after Spike and Vengeance had added their points, he decided to add his two cents.

"A very valid and poignant point you make Brendan. Spike raises and equally valid point though that organizing and enforcing this kind of adjustment to standards and decorum can be very difficult. It requires nation wide agreement on a set of principals and a set of consequences, the details of which can prove to be a mire of grey areas and interpretations. 

I have wondered about realistic solutions to this myself and I can see why the Godfathers may not want to get into it. Personally I would think it worthwhile but I can understand not wanting to get into policing every word said in public. If I were a CL I think my own approach to it would be more of a Buddhist one; Be the change you wish to see. I feel it is within any Crew Leader's capabilities to design and enforce a set of standards for their members to adhere to. The hope would then be that the behavior and conduct of your members would act as an example and hopefully other leaders would follow suit with a similar set of principals.

I know it wouldn't resolve the blanket problem you are discussing but we have to start somewhere. I know I would have no problem administering appropriate public discipline and punishment to anyone I felt was guilty of disrespect and poor behavior. I feel the public example would be important to highlight that this behavior would not be tolerated and hopefully help to initiate some type of standard.

Then in time, who knows? Enough Leaders might do the same and we would have the general standards that have been lost."

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~~Ranking has been becoming a huge issue for a good while now. I've discussed suggestions regarding ranking standards several times, but nothing has been done. Why? Well, it would require a collective motion to set a standard for say the rank of Made Man. Is this hard? Not particularly. However, it's still not that easy to get everyone on board for something like that. Is there an incentive not to promote people? Not really. Theoretically, there's only a benefit to having people Made Man or higher in your crew. There's a risk to promoting someone to Made, but people don't seem to worry much about that. If leaders could come together and discuss options, it would help lead us to a better community, and possibly a more respectful community.

You don't need a collective motion. You just need some standards.

You think a leader gives out Made Man buttons like their nothing more than a pack of sweets? Well shoot that fucking leader. They aren't fit to lead. That's how things slip when you sit idle and allow others to demean that which is important to you. 

I know for a fact that some leaders here hold their members to very high standards and require a lot of effort before they award them Made Man status, Don Lannister is one of those which is one of the main reasons I work him, the other I know to be very strict - old school if you will - is Jono. I'm sure there are others that I don't have an inside knowledge of, but I'm absolutely certain there are more out there that don't hold the rank as special as these two I did mention.

Now, perhaps these others were raised with this view, so is it really their fault? Or is it the fault of our forefathers who did exactly as we have and stood idle whilst watching the meaning of the rank decline? Lets be real, this issue isn't a new issue at all, Spike said he has been personally trying to effect change for a while and I believe him, I've never worked with the man but his reputation lends the belief that he would be another that does hold his own to high standards.

I can't wait to see the day where the rank holds meaning again, but I wont hold my breath on it arriving anytime soon.

Thank you though Brendan, fantastic topic.

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If someone, like me for example, did all the legwork and wrote a set a guidelines, rewards and punishments would that make it easier or is it coming to an agreement that is the sticking point?

Personally I think that could never work. People will always feel like they are being told how to run their own family. Which they are if we all employ the same strict rules and guidelines. I feel variety is key in this thing of ours and it's good to have different leaders who do things differently, but it's important they still have those key standards on which to live by and have the respect for ranks enough to make people work for the promotion. Too many folks have a simple tick box with "X amount donated for this rank" - now this doesn't mean thats the only thing that a person needs to do to be promoted, but I've never understood the notion to set a tribute figure as each person is different.

I treat each person individually and make sure that I feel they have given their all and earned my trust before I press that button, it isn't all about the money with me. We must remember though that as Arya said above and Spike also touched on, this problem has been very evident for a long time. Too many new bloodlines have grown up with slack standards and therefore aren't aware they are viewed as slack.

Change wont be easy for those people.

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I have always thought that those under Made should not be granted the same rights as those who have been Made.

As an example, MrKuku (Goomba) insults Curtis (Don).  Curtis should, and should be able, to shoot MrKuku on the spot, and have a sit down later.  If, at the sitdown, it emerges that MrKuku didn't deserve to die, then either financial restitution is made, or a reprisal killing of a similar rank is made.

The point being - when someone is Made, they are given the protection of the hierarchy of the family.  Until then...  It's a grey area.

This would make this life of ours a lot more interesting.

Random attacks should be outlawed on any rank, punishable by death.  But a Made guy killing an associate?  Unless it's a random attack, there should be a sitdown and a decision made.

Let's spice this life of ours up.

A meeting of the city heads should commence and discuss this.  A new order is needed.

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I agree with you Brendan and Vengeance,I remember when I first time started this game,first words of my sponsor was "respect anyone here especialy if they are high ranked than you" and I was promoted to made man after 50+ days at game,now I wach everything here they come and they disrespect all no matter what rank they are or anything else,plus I know that some of players here are proven and that is why they get leader position at small ranks,but that is not good from only one reason,new players see that and they want to be leader after 11 days

 
 
 
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Brendan thank you, another topic that is close to my heart. My bloodline has been around a fair amount of time, not as long as some mind you. I have been reading through my family's journals, and I have seen steady decline in how people conduct themselves on the streets. I accept we aren't here to hold hands and get along, but as Brendan stated, you can disagree with people without being disrespectful. I have said it time and time again, our honour and levels of respect are what set us apart from the petty criminals. However, almost everyday I look at some people and think their behaviour is so far detached from what the mafia is about.

Spike made a point about having a set standard for Made Man across the board, but I agree with Tyrion that we should never go down that path. It is great that at the moment we are able to make our own decisions based on what we think and do not have to conform with a mandated set standards. If everyone had the same standards and same rules we might as well just have one big family that resides in one place.

Now as a Godfather some of you may ask why I don't enforce a change. Well the simply answer is I can't. I concern myself with my district first and foremost. I have done and will continue to come down on people in my district if there is a whiff of disrespect, because I have my standards and no matter how ancient some may think they are, I will not deviate from it. Would I like everyone to live by my standards? Of course I would because I believe my standards are correct, but I am not stupid to think that I can go round and enforce them on people. The other thing we need to remember is not everything is played out on the streets. Just because someone has been disrespectful and we have not seen them killed or demoted doesn't mean that they haven't been punished in some form.

Now MrKuku, you have a very interesting mafia point: anyone above Made has the right to kill someone below their rank if they feel they have disrespected them. Many moons ago, and Curtis can vouch for this as it was his bloodline that was involved, Curtis bloodline was a CL at the time and another CL openly disrespected him. The end result was that Curtis flew to find the other CL and shot him. Similar to what MrKuku is suggesting, but on a larger scale. This suggestion would be interesting, but I can't see it being enforced with the way we run things but I would certainly be up for discussing such a proposal if the other Godfather's were. 

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As much as I would want to agree with this I see issues with it. Massive issues that I really would not like to see ever coming about again.

I agree rank should be important to a degree. The problem is that many people get extremely large egos at high ranks where they think they can go around being complete dicks to anyone of lower rank. I wholeheartedly think that is wrong. So unless there is a particular way of things benefits everyone I will always despise it.

Now another thing, as there are so many different cities and so many different ways that leaders do things I have a really hard time believing all ranks are equal. That is to say that leaders hold the same standards. They do not. So can you really think that every rank from every city is equal? Because I do not.

That is not to say that they don't deserve any respect. But I think it is safe to say that a particular cities Don has no place being a complete douche to a lower rank from another city.

Respect is a two way street. Simple as that. I think it is careless to say that only one end deserves the respect. Granted lower ranks haven't earned their button, but they haven't earned outright disrespect as a group either.  As someone else pointed out it should be based on case, not wholly because they are a gangster and you are a Made Man.

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I think lines are being blurred too much. Let us strip it back to what it is meant to be. I can not comment on how every person runs their family or district. I don't auto promote and Qui knows that I won't tolerate it. So if any of the Made or above come to the streets and are disrespected by someone of a lesser rank I will be having words with their leader as I know my members have worked hard for their button and by working hard I mean the have reached a set of requirements that have been put in place.

As it has been already stated you can disagree with people on the street without being disrespectful, I don't see that being too much to ask.

Personally I show everyone respect unless they have given me a reason not too, for a someone ranked a Goomba to come out on the streets and bad mouth a Don for example based purely on their opinion for something should never be accepted. Zephyra you are a prime example of this you disagreed with Achilles but did it respectfully, I have no issue with voicing opinions as long as it is done respectfully.
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I am not arguing there is not a good way and a bad way to disagree on the streets Spunky. I am just saying that taking this at face value would open up the doors for high ranks to do just about whatever they wanted. Respect is earned and not just handed to people. It is a two way street. If you want respect you damn well better be willing to give it as well.

As far as families go. I see your point but I wasn't prying into how every family does it's promoting. I just know some are more slack than others. So it is hard to determine what amount of respect should be given. Different families, different cities, different ways of doing things.

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I just wanna start by saying I am a fan of this speech, people put so much stock in CL's and hands but people don't seem to remember that earning your button used to and still should mean something. They are chosen by their respective CL's to have a place in the inner circle of their family and thus should not be allowed to be insulted by just any person. The standards have been slipping even though my bloodline is not as old as most I've seen my ancestors's journals and I read how excited the first of my kin was when he got his made button because it meant something to him and the rest of the family. 

 

Once again thank you for bringing this up Brandon

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Maybe, maybe not, but it is worthwhile considering because at the end of the day this is the mafia. We can't have people running round name calling Don's and Godfather's it just doesn't sit right with me. So why not try something different, I'm not saying it will be easy to implement or police but it would certainly add a new dynamic.

Out of interest how would you suggest the issue of disrespect be challenged?
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Ciro listens to the gathering intently trying to take down notes. Being the new kid in town he's not sure if he should make a statement but he nods at what many other mobsters are saying. In this past week Ciro has had a first hand view of many happenings regarding respect and the consequences of lacking it.

 

I agree with the gist of your argument Brendan there cannot be order in La Cosa Nostra without respect...... especially an unmitigated respect for those in the upper tiers of the structure. You cross the lines and you pay the consequences - I think after a few examples of this maybe people will understand. As far as having full control over all your members any CL will do his best but its impossible to be on the streets at all times so things happen, but a good CL will take care of it for the good of his district and the order of things overall. His reputation and life are also in the balance. I think when there are members that can't handle the way La Cosa Nostra operates it comes to light and things eventually get handled.

 

Ciro steps back into the crowd and stands by calmly to listen to what else may be said........

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Spunky I am not saying it is a bad idea. I am just saying that it needs to be monitored by both ends of the spectrum. While I understand lower ranks shouldn't be name calling Don's or Godfather's but those Don's and Godfather's also shouldn't feel so damn entitled to be dicks to everyone lower ranked then themselves. It's a two way thing.

As you both yourself and Brendan pointed out there is a proper way to disagree with something. I whole heartedly agree that purposely calling a Godfather a douche, etc is completely out of bounds. But at the same time this feels like it is once again just directed at the lower ranks which again I have an issue with. Made Men aren't perfect either. I have seen them do what you find appalling in thugs and gangsters. Maybe that is where they are learning that it is okay. Gotta fix the top and downwards. Not just starting at the bottom.

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Achilles wonders how long it will be before Zephyra starts flyering for her Save The Thug Foundation again. Clearly the girl struggled with the concept of what Mafia was.

"If a Made Man or above is a dick or a douche or a dick douche to anyone who hasn't made their button then despite it being rather mean and offensive (heaven forbid that kind of thing) it's really their right to do so, they've earned a status whereby they command respect back regardless of what they've said, as leaders we've awarded them that right. They have become a part of the elite and have gone through initiations and have done specific things in order to become a part of this elite. This is not to say I expect my Made guys to come out and be a cunt to everyone, I make it clear that their actions and words reflect on me. However, the reaction to one of my guys doing this would be a lot different to if a Gangster from my family started talking shit to a Made guy. I might speak to my Made guy and advise him, whereas I'd make sure my Gangster would be punished for those actions. Again to reiterate, I don't condone my Made guys going around talking shit to those who haven't earned their button but I wouldn't punish them for it.

Everyone holds their own standards on what they want from their guys before they become a Made man. Some would appear to hand out the rank a little too easy, others might be a little too hard, regardless of that the Godfather of those districts has given these guys the right to make those decisions and we must respect them. The only real standard we could expect from any crew leader to follow when promoting their guys to Made is that they trust them before doing so. Of course it's a flawed system since we'll always have those with hidden agendas slip through the cracks but if we start with that as the foundation of what it is to become a Made man then we can go on from there. Of course this would be a different discussion entirely though and one I'm willing to have elsewhere.

I feel the discussion around the lower tier of the community openly disrespecting those above Made is a good one to bring to the table Brendan. It's obviously a problem but it's easily remedied through getting those below made to apologise, others may feel more than an apology would be required, this would depend on the situation and again it's not something that can be set in guidelines since every situation like this is different. I'd like to know what your thoughts are on this Spunky. How do you think it could be challenged?

AryaStark made a good point in that we need to be mindful if our leaders are giving anyone their button but again the Godfathers have given their Leaders the right to make this judgement for themselves. Those giving out the Made rank easily can greatly affect the respect the community has on our Made Men and currently the respect doesn't seem to be there. I agree with TyrionLannister that change won't be easy, but as long as there are those of us working with new bloodlines to ensure the rank of Made is respected then I think we are on the right path."

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Maybe you don't want people to be a douche to every low rank but I think unless that low rank actually deserves it then maybe you shouldn't ever be a douche. Generally what you give is what you get in any situation dealing with people. Mafia communities included since I am fairly sure we are all people. Maybe some are robots, who knows. So I can hardly be surprised if someone bristles at another depending on how they go about treating them.

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Maybe you don't want people to be a douche to every low rank but I think unless that low rank actually deserves it then maybe you shouldn't ever be a douche. Generally what you give is what you get in any situation dealing with people. Mafia communities included since I am fairly sure we are all people. Maybe some are robots, who knows. So I can hardly be surprised if someone bristles at another depending on how they go about treating them.

Wise words Zephrya. If only people actually did what they said.

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