Who isn't doing what they are saying, Arya?

(And was there any need to blockquote that entire response when it was immediately before your own?)

I had a feeling it'd move to another street corner, Heel. But it seems you were the one that moved to the next corner and not me. Oops.

Well to respond to: 

 If you recognise that ranks have lost their values and that promoting people beyond the rank of Made Man is no longer a risk surely we have gone wrong somewhere?

It requires a little knowledge of history. I can't say things were GREAT before the May War in regards to ranking, but there were still many standards in place. Things also fell apart rank standard wise  previously due to the Fort War, really for the same reason. There was a need for us to have Made Men, for authing, for recruiting. However, it seems clear to me, that we are not in a reconstructive period, but some of those habits of promoting almost automatically have still stuck.

AMAZING CONCEPT. Both replies say the same thing. But one is said in a way that shows you respect the person and the rank. The other does not.

 Brendan you pretty much hit that dead on when it comes to the recent ways of the streets. The only way this will change, if the current Godfathers enforce a more  stricter laws of punishment lower ranks who disrespect Made men and above etc. 

If I read my ancestry journals,  it shows a differnt time era where these things where more strongly enforced with the ending results was punishable by death. Times have changed that's for sure.

Sorry @Achilles it has taken me a while to get back out here some problems back in the old country. 

Back to the subject at hand, the only thing I can think of is punishment, as at the moment there is no deterrent. Noe that punishment doesn't have to be death but something that shows that people can't just disrespect who they want when they want. People can disrespect who they want without batting an eyelid. The other day Don Jono was the target after having a debate with someone else. That person as far as I can tell wasn't punished.

My only fear with going along this route is that it is a fine line because the last thing you want to do is stifle the streets with people fearing coming out and talking because they fear that someone might find what they said disrespectful and they end up punished. What would be your suggestions?

BloodySpikeS I agree that the war changed the standards and some may not have gone back to ranking standards but urely we shouldn't have dropped the standards in the first place? I am sure we could of worked around the homeless problem without throwing our standards out the window?

As per the situation post war, we needed to lower standards because otherwise people would've been unable to be housed. However, this should have only been done for a short period of time. We couldn't have worked around the homeless problem. People are bloodthirsty for the untagged, and the way things went after the Fort War, (which is why we have fortifications now), showed that it would be far too much effort to protect masses of homeless.

But either way, returning to old standards is what should happen. 

Moreover, something does sadly need to be understood by people. This speech is discussing lower ranked people talking inappropriately to those who are made and up. Someone said something about how it should go both ways. While that's a nice concept, and I believe in good will towards men as a whole. I do think lower ranks should not be surprised to be talked down to. If a higher ranked person calls them a pissant, or something, it shouldn't surprise them. They "are" subservient, at least until they've earned a button. If they are displeased with being spoken to in a condescending fashion, then they can do something about it. 

Personally, I generally treat my members with respect. In previous lines, I have found myself in positions where I've had to talk down to members, who have completely fucked up or have been severely deficient in some facet despite several free passes. Chastising seems like a fair thing to do? Achilles knows something of this, given his own hyperbolic speech, but there was a point there, a common issue among crewleaders, perhaps worded a bit too brashly.

Also, back to my main point of discussion, the made man button is something that I think needs to be standardized because while Mr. TyrionLannister and I are selective in our own ranking process, it's not something that will progress across the board unless we have others agree to a higher level of standards. The easiest way to do that is to place some requirements. The easiest thing I can consider to suggest as a decree would be a return of Made Man Ceremonies, simply. Some of us still do it, but if more did, there might be a greater sense by crewleader and member alike, that the rank actually means something. 

Someone said something about how it should go both ways.

Since this was me I think I will pipe back in now. My main point with it going both ways is that higher ranks shouldn't feel it's their rights to be absolute pricks just because. If you are given a reason, such as they disrespected you first, then by all means fair game there.

I am not saying that you should just let someone disrespect you. That's like being a doormat and no one needs an extra one of those.  I just don't want to see where it becomes a thing that isn't punished when you are high rank. It should not just be punishable as a low rank.

As it has been pointed out there is a way to disagree with someone. My line learned the lesson the hard way when an ancestor was constantly killed for attacking CrazyNine in the streets many moons ago. That standard should be there, I agree. But leaders will actually need to help their members street speak properly to avoid that. Set something up within the headquarters that may benefit.

Maybe with the correct training people might appear less rude. However, there is a flip side to such. Some people (high and low ranks all around) that will get bent out of shape just because of who is talking and not really listen to what is being said. They will find fault with everything. So a little less jumping to conclusions in some instances would be nice as well. I don't hold much hopes for that but I thought I would throw it out there.

But it is their right; that's the whole point. If they want to be an absolute prick, just because, they can. They are made, a brother, family and therefore they are untouchable. You might not like it, but this isn't about being nice to fresh faced nobodies who are greener than grass, this is the Mafia.

We aren't running a book club or a sewing circle where everyone is welcome and they get to cast an opinion, because firstly we don't give two shits about the opinion of a street rat and secondly we really don't give two shits about the opinion of a street rat. This is a business which invariably involves knocking heads and stepping on toes to get what we want. Until you graduate from the street, you'll be treated exactly like what your input merits. You have to earn the right to share your thoughts with your betters, you have to earn the right to be treated with respect and you should only gain these things with rank.

Without it, you don't deserve anything better than you're given. 

I much prefer book clubs to people that constantly want to be dicks. At least you can put the book down.

However it is not their right. Unless their leader wants to look like a complete worthless douche then their members should handle themselves better than that. At least as far as I am concerned, which may not account for much.

Made men are an extension of their families. It is their leader that they represent. What leader wants to portray such? Well minus yours of course. He has proclaimed that for himself but what is that telling new members of our community? To me it shows that they can be disrespectful.  I thought we were trying to prevent that, not encourage it.

If we don't deserve anything better than we're given then leaders shouldn't complain when they don't get tributes from the insanely rich thugs in this world. I mean they weren't given the tribute so surely they must not deserve it. That logic doesn't seem to fit here does it?

It is amusing to see you, one of the least logical people I've ever met, questioning the logic of others especially when you seemingly have next to no knowledge of how the mafia actually works. Please remember you're meant to be a boss, third in command of a family and not a human rights campaigner for the local nobody. Your position is unrealistic and nonsensical. 

If someone who has made their bones wants to be a dick to a no-name Thug, that is entirely their prerogative. Why? Because they have earned the right to do that. By opening the books for them, they have been invited into the family and they are now untouchable. An attack on them is a direct attack on the family. Whether what they've done is right or wrong, the simple reality is they are made and the other guy isn't and that means they are superior and should be backed by the boss of the family. 

Obviously that comes with a caveat that they aren't doing something ridiculously unacceptable, but not automatically worshiping the ground people who are strolling the block for the first time in their lives are walking on does not even come close to matching that criteria. It is absurd to suggest a mafia boss would concern themselves with how one of their family talks in the street to an irrelevant underling. Can you tell me how that conversation would even go? I'd love to see an example that explains why they would even come close to giving a shit.

As to the rest of your response; pay attention to what I actually said. I said without rank, you don't deserve anything other than what you're afforded because you haven't earned anything more than that. That is logical. The insanely rich thug stupidity has been debated already elsewhere so I'm not getting into that again unless you have something valid to add on it, which I doubt. 

The point is: With rank, you deserve respect. Without it, you aren't owed it, but general human decency is nice.

Having listened to the conversation become a discussion, Curtis had found the points raised interesting. He'd had no cause to join in as each time someone raised a point of view he didn't agree with, someone else had responded with a perspective that echoed his own. Finally, listening to the last two things Heel and Spike had to say, he smiled.

"Heel. Thank you. That was a rather brilliant and conclusive explanation of rank, standing and regard in this thing of ours. I'm not sure it would be possible to explain it better." 

Turning to BloodySpikeS he grinned.

"And thank you Spike. I think that could be just about the perfect summation of it."

Well, thank you, Curtis. 

There's been something truly lost, probably even before the Fort War. I hate to dare say it, but the real decline started during the fall of the Roman Empire. There were a few admirable things that went on during that period, and many... well... anyway... Rank was something one would have to earn. There was generally a standard across the board for the most part. Speech was an weapon, and a very important tool.

Moreover, respect to upper ranks (and even lower ones), except for some grave pissing and a few other isolated events, actually had some weight.

I would say those great traits: Earned Ranking, Speech, and Gradations of Respect... are really still in a freefall/chaos, and have been declining since that era.

Intelligent speeches happen among the hodgepodge of other levels of effort and topics of speeches... Ranking is just free flow, as the wind blows (on a macro scale... I know there are leaders who value it, but also those same leaders may see other leaders with lax standards and just say fuck it). And well, as a result of the aforementioned status assessments of our circumstances, I think respect, in general, not even between rank, is just not so high on the list of important things for a person to be doing here by any means whatsoever. In fact, the lines are so blurred, it's hard to tell what's comedy and what's not. 

The saddest truth these days, all that matters is if you kill, and you do crimes (Yes, Grin, The Silent Colossus). If you have financial backing, you're even better off. As for other skill sets, including ones that I didn't mention (political theory, strategy, organization, kindness, creativity, etc etc), they kind of just fall into the background. 

So when was the last time you guys saw a city meeting? A World Wide meeting? I had been hoping to have one at The World's Fair. Perhaps if some other leaders would be open to a public discussion on the state of affairs, we could get on a path to reverse some what we have lost. If others are interested of course. 

Or, we can just go back to bickering, and dissing each other... And talking for the sake of talking, because most of the time now, we speak like we're writing for a newspaper, getting paid by the word... and keeping to ourselves doing crimes and murders alone except for the seldom organized crime...

Or perhaps, we can be a part of something greater, what we're really supposed to be doing, behind all of our little dirty work, partaking in the aid of the greater good of a community, together.

Curtis says nothing. Just stands and claps until his hands bleed.

You guys ever heard about the chinese godfather?

At Spike, hear hear.

The problem is established.  And you identified the essence of its continuation: the lack of substantive meetings, whereby standards can be codified, ratified and policed. 

Dirus stands among the crowd, casually smoking his cigarette and listening to the speech, he waits until a lull in the conversation occurs before speaking.

I know I'm new to these shores, but my family line dates back fairly far... Well... Used to. I have to say, my family always treated those around them with respect, no matter their ranking, made or not... Kept my father, his father, and his father alive for quiet some time, if it's true that the state of this thing of ours has degraded into a disrespectful manner, then it's rather worrying... I do hope the higher-ups can sort something out before everyone fresh off the boat, such as myself, is seen as little more than a walking pile of compost. To those of you that are bringing attention  to this, keep up the good work, not all of us are disrespectful money making slags.

After saying his peace he relights his cigarette and continues listening, waiting for people to continue adding solutions to the problem.