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Discussion: Jobs board Started by: DeadlySin on Dec 04, '14 16:28

Following a discussion in #divinelunacy a short while ago, I decided it was a good idea to get feedback from as many people as possible by coming here where more people can see and reply to this whenever they want.

What is being discussed is the order that crewleaders jobs appear on the jobs board - currently they are ordered by the crewleader with the most recently active sponsor. For instance if one of Tepid's sponsors was active 8 seconds ago and one of Achilles' sponsors was active 10 seconds ago, Tepid would be listed at the top of the jobs board and Achilles listed second.

What is being discussed is how the order can be decided using more appropriate factors relating to the crew rather than just how active they are - hopefully increasing the amount of new people that are actually contacted because they will be picking jobs written by crews that are putting in real effort as opposed to just being the most active.

Some of the ideas that have already been raised -

1. Better placement based on the percentage of new people that they contact.

2. Better placement based on their position in the VIP ranking.

3. Better placement based on upper structure activity.

4. Better placement based on percentage of members that make it to Made Man.

5. Better placement based on activity of new members that join their crew.

I'm bringing it here because conversations in #divinelunacy tend to get derailed, and talking often happens quickly so that things are missed. Would be good to get some more feedback on this and ideas on what else it can be based on, or even things that it definitely shouldn't be based on.

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I won't lie, i find the whole jobs board system very frustrating in general.  I honestly am not even a fan of it to a large degree even though had some success with it.  I know is not what your asking, but an opinion

My biggest problem with the jobs board is a) the amount of people who go through it just for the incentive knowing they are never joining the crew and the b) the number of people who i find die even after being contacted as at one point this past 80% for me.

Now some people may play to their strengths on this one, for what would be best e.g, for me would be vip rankings as would attract more people my way but the truth is contact would be the fairest.

My problem with it being based on 2, is that just due to where a crew doesn't post doesn't mean is not a good crew and is something some of us want to work on with members and on an inter-city basis e.g. Whatsername's scheme and 4. doesn't work for me, as anyone can promote anyone to made just to make their family look stronger even if a soft touch on promotion.  This would also hinder newer families who are mainly gangster, wg and maybe one made man.

The big difficulty with 5 is as much as we all try and bring and develop new members and give them a chance over time to develop, rank, become active the more we try this, sometimes will skew the statistics.

So 1. would be preferable for me.

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Carlos, all five would be incorporated to some level, I believe. What I got from the conversation is that they are planning to try and create a formula that would make certain families worth more money on the job board than others. 

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Just to make it clear in case it wasn't in my initial post - this is to gather ideas for things to base the placement on. You don't have to pick one of the things I listed, these are just the ideas that were raised in divinelunacy :)

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The first question here for me is... does it really matter who's first? 

I've no idea what the stats look like for breakdown of new players who select the first job over the others but I'd imagine it's a fairly minor benefit in click through rate? (I'm not sure if the analytics there has been tweaked to track the position of the button selected or if it only tracks the URL destination). Without knowing the figures, there's nothing on the page that suggests that first place is any better than last place and given the proximity to the button I think I'd personally be more inclined to click the last. 

If I was thinking about how I'd like to do it, I'd actually flip it around completely.

Each step of jobs has a specific price, with the families listed in order of activity. Instead, I'd make the 'ranking' result in a higher financial reward for the new arrival. This way, the proportion of clicks being attributed to the 'leading' family will be dramatically higher than to the others. So for the first set of jobs, instead of a blanket $75 for all families the rewards could range from $100 for the 'top' family down to $50 for the 'bottom' family (it could be done as a scaled list based on the scores they achieve or as a % of the top price based on relative scores, either would work fine [e.g. at the moment the top could be at $100 and the bottom, at 68.2374% of the score of the top, could be at $68], as could a combination of the two [i.e. a max, a min and the difference between the two set via relative scores]). 

In this case, the top ranking family at a given time will have a massive recruitment benefit over the other families, meaning it's something that would be a strong focus for each family and (hopefully) drive desired behaviours.

 

 

So then the super important bit becomes the rankings.... 

With any suggestion of this nature, a black box algorithm is really the desired solution.

Once specific values are known, people will try and game it. Not knowing the weightings or 'score' of a given action requires (or at least encourages) players to invest time into any/all actions related to it. Dispersing the activities related to rankings around in a (relatively) balanced and inclusive system would always be the desire here.

1. This one has nothing to do with RP or even debate/discussion, it's a reality of logistics that in order for the game to survive we must encourage families to reach out to new players and by providing a fun playing environment encourage them to hang around. Like it/hate it/agree/disagree, it doesn't matter. It's a reality and this needs to be pushed HARD. Top weighted factor in a scoring system. Other factors can be used to help ensure that it's positive contact with new players and of the right type, but the first step is to get some contact. 

2. The game is a text based role playing game, where people play roles through text. We all talk about bg's, kills, building a cannon or getting lucky on a roll, but the reality of this game (if you're playing it right) is that it's as much a political strategy sim as a clickmonkey wack fest. Rewarding positive posting on the game is essential and can't be over emphasised enough. Pushing for this (as per a previous conversation in #divinelunacy a day earlier) encourages the type of community interaction the game needs to survive (nobody has ever come back to MR to click 'wack' again, it's to engage with the people again. Always). Again, very highly weighted. 

3. It's easily tracked (already there on the summary sheet), is relevant to how well a player might (not always the case) be helped once they join up and encourages more activity in the game. Win, win, win. Not a major factor, but worth adding into the mix. 

4/5. From a RP point of view I have a minor issue with it being 'Made Man' linked to ranks. MM is the one that carries weight... or should. This point is really about 'are new players staying and playing', so setting it at Wise Guy would seem a less RP-intrusive (if a CL should wish to RP incredibly tight MM requirements) suggestion. A little too dependent on outside factors to be a big factor, but again an important factor for the health of the game so does need a spot in there. 'Activity' can be measured in a number of ways, but honestly a rank check is all but equivalent to an activity check so unless there's a technical reason to use one/other/both, I'd just stick with WG rank check here. Small factor, but relevant.

 

 

The last suggestion is where it's going to throw the cat among the pigeons....

Cash. 

 

I'm aware the game have used PPC advertising in the past, so I've no doubt they understand how the ubiquitous Googles Adwords system combines "quality scores" (which the above factors could combine to provide) with cash bids (you're willing to pay a price of $x for a ranking position) in a placement auction. Rather than having a set cost for each job listing, providing a bid system to the entire thing brings an additional factor into the mix, rewards the value of money in the game (never a bad thing for driving game economics) and brings a far more quickly adjustable factor for a specific family that might be struggling for members (if they're willing to pay through the nose for it, they might rank higher). For anyone not familiar with the system, it would basically result in a situation where family 1 can rank in first place for a price of $x, while family 2 would need to pay $10x to steal that spot.

I wouldn't like to see the cash be a major factor here, but it would bring an interesting dynamic to the listings... along with being a great way from helping to keep the black box sealed and allowing anyone to reverse engineer the system being used.

I'm not familiar with the prices being used for job listings currently, but a simple +/- 50% bid option, potentially with steps of 5% within it, would seem an acceptable way to get a quick fix in there.

 

Put all of the above steps in there together and you get a listing where the most valuable job is being offered by the family that has done the greatest work to deserve it, based on the weighted factors deemed most important.

 

 

 

 

*********************

The tutorial is an excellent addition. Very helpful to new players. I might suggest a slight reworking to the final stage of the tutorial though to emphasise the importance of a family for survival rather than directing new players to the streets...

So on the "Kickin' Rocks" section taking the "Alright kid, you're a fast learner - looks like you're doing ok on your own. You should spend some time looking around. Maybe check the Streets for a bit." and putting something along the lines of...

"Alright kid, you're a fast learner. Keep working hard like that and you'll go places. Be sure to find a family though, without their protection these cities can be a mean place to try and survive. Maybe check out the Streets to see which families are creating a stir." 

Or something along those lines that's good... and doesn't suck.

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Satanta - good ideas there, the jobs paying out more is great. Also in response to the 'paying for a ranking position' - I think that's a good idea too. I'm sure when crews have, and are willing to put, even more money than the initial amount invested they might feel more inclined to make sure they're getting the most for their money which in turn would hopefully mean the people who are trying the hardest to recruit will get the top positions on the jobs board.

 

I was kind of hoping for more of a response from the leaders as this is something that will directly affect them and their districts. I hate to do this, and I feel like doing it is me going "LOOK AT ME LOOK AT ME!" but I feel this is something that we could really do with having people discuss properly and I think people should be able to have a chance to give their ideas.

If you agree with what has been said feel free to just post what you agree with, if you disagree with something but don't have any ideas that's fine too. It just seems like a good idea to get as many opinions possible. I'll tag just the district heads for now, but if not much response happens I might tag leaders later on. Please leave your thoughts!

Ajani Haven Cherokee Spunky Sydney Mr_Crowley Amethyst Cantillon LF Kyubey FutureStealer Gravity Inertia Whatsername

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Honestly I too am curious of the actual number breakdown. I think it would be nice to be the first one listed but overall I'm very curious to see if it is substantial enough to invest time and money in. I have always been fairly ambivalent to the job board. I've gotten a few great members but it seems as though this is more or an exception than the rule. At this point in the game most people who are coming back know who they are going to join and if they even use the job board it's for free cash. 

 

That being said I do think it gives new players a good idea of how to start. I would be willing to try some of the options listed to see if I see an uptick in potential members but I cannot imagine myself going overboard to make the job board a priority. 

 

If I were to add a tiered system I'd like to see it in a roleplay sense I suppose. Bigger families should be listed on top by number of members. These families could offer more money on jobs because of their size and the theoretical scope of their empire. Conversely I think it would also be interesting to see the families with less people be on top and offer more money because they would be looking for new members a lot harder than some family twice their size would be.

 

All in all I look forward to seeing what other ideas and responses people have. If the job board does or doesn't change I don't really see it affecting my district either way. These posts are always great catalysts for change though so I am happy that this was brought out.

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I think it would be nice to be the first one listed but overall I'm very curious to see if it is substantial enough to invest time and money in.

Right now, every listing on the job board is "equal" other than placement.  Rather than bettering the placement, we can better the payout.  Right now if every job pays you 90, but one pays 110, most users would feel more inclined to click on the one that pays more.  We can use the payout as the modifier for whatever ranking we do.  I think it would be more predictable than what place you get listed.

(As far as placement stats go, it varies throughout the months but it looks at about high 60s % click on the first job, next is the last job, the rest are the leftovers)

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Also, this was touched on in IRC but figure it can be here too

 

4. Better placement based on percentage of members that make it to Made Man.

 

Replacing that with "Played for over XX hours" or "Made it to wiseguy", this way theres no incentive to promote randoms to made.

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I'm a big fan of the tutorial and the jobs system. I think it is a great introduction for the game and some of the ones when I completed them happened to be very entertaining, so I played through virtually every crew who let me do so at the time. I think if I was new to the game, I'd be lured in by:

  1. How engaging the scenario I was doing was
  2. The money I was getting for doing it

I might click through all of the jobs for the second reason, but I would definitely choose a family based upon the first reason. Someone had a job at the time that involved shoveling pig shit; that amused me so I kept looking for their jobs and eventually joined their family. That is how I think it should work, the most engaging are the best rewarded.

To translate that into positioning, I guess it should be based on the uptake % of people doing the jobs vs joining that family. They are the ones getting the best results and should therefore be in the best position. 

As this is a discussion, I would actually love there to be more direct interaction created by the jobs system between members and recruits. I would gladly write different scenarios for our recruits and rotate/update the starting points periodically, especially if we could be part of it. If rather than having the pre-written scenario for them to click through they could have an interactive job actually happening that, they could participate in and make choices from, I think that would be great. 

So for example they click on the job and they are presented with a choice or doing A) shoveling the shit B) throwing the shovel in the guy's face C) quit working for this crew. When they make their choice, an active Sponsor is notified (or better yet each sponsor has their own set of jobs, but I guess that might be taking it to the extreme) and they can choose what to do. If they answer A, they can just send them to the next pre-written job, if they answer B or C, they can then choose how the job progresses from there. It would then make the experience more personal to the prospective mobster and based upon their choices. Personally, anyone with a set of stones big enough to throw the shovel in my guy's face is worth following up on and the scenario could branch out significantly from there. I probably need to think about this more. I'll get back to you.

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Thank you for tagging my name in this thread, Deadlysin.

*Mumbles*

Bastard...WHAT WHAT? I SAID NOTHING!

On a serious note, I am glad you tagged me in this. I was indeed involved in a different conversation about jobs on divinelunacy. The concept of jobs I really like. It gives crew leaders the opportunity to flex their RPing muscles and type up some really good jobs. I take pride in my extra long RP jobs, even if people don't bother reading it all the way through. Having said that, the one think that irks me is the fact that crew leaders, or indeed sponsers, have to go to the citizens who have done their jobs and basically whore themselves out in an attempt to get the new member. Now, I know that this site can only be loosely RPed around the 1930s mafia era, but I am sure as anything that these families did not pander to the needs of citizens in an attempt to gain their pledge and loyalty, and in many cases not even get a response. I sincerely think that the whole responding to jobs pathway should be changed completely. I think that after jobs have been done, there should be a process (other than just mailing the individual sponsers/crew leader as that is too hard for some people), when a certain amount of jobs have been done for each family, that they can press a button which sends an automated message to any of the families sponser online, and let them know they are interested in this particular family. That, or it's just a button that directs them to a crew leader and sponsers and they can type a message of their choice.

 

Having said that, I can see a problem with some of the suggestions that have been brought forth:

1. Better placement based on the percentage of new people that they contact.

I agree on this notion to a certain extent, but the percentage of new people will obviously be lower with people that are less active. Is that really fair to put them lower down the sponsering pile just because they are able to log on for less time. Also, what will happen with people that are newly made sponsers? Having said that, perhaps it should have something added to make it more fair? Perhaps take into consideration how many hours they have logged in the last seven days in accordance to how many people they have contacted to be recruited.

2. Better placement based on their position in the VIP ranking.

I disagree with this completely. I know that VIP ranking have been taken into consideration for other things, but I don't think it should be added to this. The streets can be a hard place to post, especially for people that don't have English as their native language. I don't think they should be put at a disadvantage with regards to sponsering people.

3. Better placement based on upper structure activity.

I actually think this is good idea. A crew leader and his hands are put into the ultimate position of power, they should really be active for this. So with this notion with sponsering is good in my eyes.

5. Better placement based on activity of new members that join their crew.

I don't think this is really a good idea. A lot of crews may not be able to grasp a lot of the new members, but this is not through lack of trying, but their method for recruiting might not be working. Some methods work better than others.

 

Sorry that I am not too much help on this topic, but I have given my suggestion at the top. I do sincerely think that the system is broken in a certain sense.

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I think the edge should be given to the people who are attempting to use the job board. I think the top placement should go to the crew that has the highest percentage of people who have done their jobs that they have then contacted. Really nothing else matters, VIP status, crew activity, made members anything else doesn't really justify placement.

If a crew is actively trying to contact and seek out those doing their jobs, they should be rewarded with placement. The highest VIP status doesn't mean they are going to contact anyone doing their jobs. Kind of defeats the whole purpose if jobs are being done for crews who aren't then going to follow up with the new person.

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Gravity

Having said that, I can see a problem with some of the suggestions that have been brought forth:

1. Better placement based on the percentage of new people that they contact.

I agree on this notion to a certain extent, but the percentage of new people will obviously be lower with people that are less active. Is that really fair to put them lower down the sponsering pile just because they are able to log on for less time.

I think its best to handle this on a % basis.  We have one crewleader for example, had only 1 contact out of 14 with 13 not receiving any mail.  We had another who was 7 for 7.  It doesn't matter how old or new you are if we are really only looking at the past day or two of contact percentages. 

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Whatsername 

Really nothing else matters, VIP status, crew activity, made members anything else doesn't really justify placement.

 

Ehh I kind of disagree with that.  I think there are some metrics we can use to figure out the chance of a better match.  If a family has a very high % of people who come in new and play at least 10 hours+, versus another family who has a very low % of people who end up getting "hooked" and playing 10 hoursr.  I would think that some generalizations can be made by looking at the data and figure out which would provide the better outcome.   This puts more users in situations that are better for them, and, it also gives a "standard" for lack lusters crews to strive towards.

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I think based on who is actually using the board like Whatsername said and based off upper structure activity should have some sort of a "edge". I'm not sure about basing it off the % of activity of people who join.  Sometimes people try and recruit via role play and that scares off people, but for others that works brilliantly.  But as some mentioned a fair chunk just know where they are going anyways

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I could get behind #3, I really like that idea. It helps encourage the upper structure to be active (Which they really should be anyways.) and it rewards their activity. If a crew's upper structure isn't active they should potentially lose out since they're less likely to be there to guide their current members, let alone new members.

I also like #1, it helps encourage activeness and there's nothing wrong with that. At least I don't think so, leaders would just have to make sure people are making attempts to contact the people doing the jobs. 

As for the other ideas I don't like them as much as the two I pointed out, and I'm really kind of against the idea of the VIP ranking playing a role in the jobs boards.

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I think #3 is a great idea as why would you want to join a family that upper structure is barely online. I like other dislike it being linked to the VIP rankings and that isn't based upon my district being at the bottom but more because people will start posting rubbish in the hope it bumps up the placing on the jobs board.

I think Barry idea is a good one in terms of having a evolving scenario that has interactions between the sponsor and the thug and might make people stick around for a while longer if they are actually interacting with people.

My last thought is this, is there anyway that the CL's can see information such as sponsor contact rate with new people or activity levels when new people are doing their jobs?

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It shows that info to an extent Spunky. When you see someone has done your jobs, it shows which sponsors were active to allow for the jobs to be done. So if the sponsor goes uncontacted, you know who to blame.

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Personally I would like to see it based off VIP activity (the decent stuff, without auth threads included) and activity of the leaders. To me these things are important.

The VIP activity can give you insight into your leaders thoughts if they can be bothered to venture out into the streets on discussions. Personally, I want to see more leaders and people in general venturing out into the streets. Granted I know it is not for everyone.

Activity is also important. If you are going to work for someone it is best if they are active. How else are you going to have your IG issues dealt with? If your leader or hands are never around it would become a pain if say you were getting shot at. I know there are fellow district leaders or city leaders but not every new person is going to know to contact them.

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