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Honesty Started by: Kizira on Dec 18, '14 18:09

Kizira tossed on her black fur jacket before she headed into the streets. Deciding to have a look around at the snowmen the local children of her neighborhood created. She smiled as she remembered her carefree childhood days. Those days seemed so long ago now. Turning away from the past she smiled as she continued to follow the streets to where all the fellow community members were discussing topics. Some of which she was curious about but had no intention of joining the conversations as of yet.

Watching the crowds she finds a few people lurking about but not actively listening to any particular conversations. Turning towards them she smiled and nodding a silent greeting.

"Chilly this evening?" she said as she approached them.

A few managed to mumble a few things incoherently. She figured this was the best she was going to get for an audience. Perhaps people would listen in but she wouldn't hold her breath.

Kizira managed to start out with an even voice. This would be her first time in the streets and she knew that rank was something a lot of people cared about so most would likely just pass her by once they noticed how low ranked she still was. Pushing that thought aside so that she didn't get discouraged she started out with her thoughts.

"I was looking over some old journals and got to thinking about honesty in our community. I am sure many started out with things they thought they would never do in any situation only to find themselves doing them to save their skin or their families. So I wonder if many people stick to being honest as they rise among the ranks or do they manage to somehow become different people in certain situations that they never dreamed they would be?

Let's use an example. Pretend that you believe honesty should always be upfront and foremost in how you deal with things in our community. Now you are always honest with everyone about the small things. Fast forward into the future and your crewleader or godfather makes a decision you don't really agree with. Let's pretend that you ended up in a discussion with them and that topic came up. Would you tell them what you thought? Or would you hold back out of fear that they may kill you if you disagree with their ways?"

Pausing briefly to take a look around to see if anyone was still listening.

"So basically do you believe you should lie or omit your thoughts to keep your leader happy? Is there a point that you think lying is the better option? Why?"

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While I think it's a great question to pose, I have to admit that I think the example given is terrible. I would always, without exception, tell my leader or Godfather my honest opinion if asked. I can't see any situation or scenario where that wouldn't, or shouldn't be the case.

Would I act on an order that I didn't agree with without question? Sure. I'd do that. If I get an order from those higher up the chain than myself I would follow it. I know those above me, I know they have the best interests of their family in mind at all times and wouldn't give me an order without it being for the greater good. I might not always have the details, all the pieces of the jigsaw or know their motivation for an order, but I do trust them and don't need to question their orders.

That, however, is very different to having to lie to them when they ask me my opinion. If they ask me if I agree with an order, they'd get my honest thoughts. More than that, I'm sure they'd want and appreciate them. No man is an island, well... except Standard if he's using his new flotation aids. He's pretty close to being an island... no person can stand alone all the time without reaching out for the thoughts and feelings of others. It isn't a case of someone being smarter and never needing the advice of those around them, it's a case of everyone bringing a different piece of the puzzle together and providing a different point of view. You just have to hope that the leader or Godfather you've chosen to follow is smart enough and strategic enough to know what questions to ask, to know who to ask them of and to know how to put all the pieces together in the right way when it comes time to act.

Honesty? Always. It's just a question of having the ability to know when to speak at length and when to simply act.   

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He hated the dark afternoons this time of the year, his hands were wedged firmly in the pockets of his overcoat. No smoking for him today too cold, he was striding with a purpose apparently a flock of goslings were invading America and he was helping assist with their removal. His hat was tipped slightly to shield his face from the wind. He almost didn't notice her but he heard her voice and he stopped to listen, after listening to her speech he was glad he stopped. He made his way through the crowd and approached her.

Kizira welcome to the the streets and thank you for taking your time to speak on a subject that obviously means a lot to you. Before I get onto your subject at hand I want to make this clear to everyone, I am not one that thinks only ranked  members of the community should be speaking on the streets it is down to the whole community to keep the streets alive especially with well thought out subjects like this one.

Now to the matter at hand, since I have been here I have always voiced my opinion to my leaders. If I wasn't happy with a decision I would tell them, if they wanted my opinion on something I would tell them regardless if my stance was the polar opposite to theirs. I like to think now I am a leader, I am still honest and I expect my district to be honest with me. So far they have been I have had heated debates with past and present members of my district about decisions I have made or was about to make. I think if you surround yourself with yes people you will end up in a world or trouble at some point. The key is understanding the reasons why people are disagreeing and making sure that the decision you are about to make is still the right one.

@Santanta has taken the words out of my mouth no matter if I disagreed with what my leader had proposed I would still back follow them even if I thought the decision was a bad one.

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MichaelLaMotta was walking through the miserable, thick snow of the streets. He knew it didn't matter how fast he was moving because he wouldn't ever warm up unless he was around a fire. As he walked and strolled the streets admiring the holiday decor, he found Kizira. Young like himself, he listened to her words as they brought up great points towards this "thing of ours".

Kiz, may I call you Kiz?

Those journals you have in your possession look old. I assume your bloodline has been here for a long time, yes? Reason I ask is because my line has been here for awhile. I have generally always spoke my mind when it came to decisions. The key to speaking one's mind is being respectful, and being tactful about it. What I mean is, you don't simply call your leader a fucking moron and continue to insult their idea/plan or whatever. 

What people need to realize is that if your leader approaches you, or a certain topic comes up while your leader is present in a coffee shop, theres a reason for it. Your opinion is wanted it. Satanta is spot on with this remarks. I have to continue to say if a leader did remove someone for voicing their opinion in a respectful manner, that leader should lose their following. That is distasteful.

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Curtis listened to the discussion and each time he was about to speak one of the other listeners spoke and said something of clarity. When they were done he made himself heard.

"Your topic is an interesting one Kizira but I can't ever see a scenario where lying to my superiors would be beneficial or necessary. I would expand on this but I fear I would only end up repeating what Satanta said so well and conclusively just moments ago. As Godfather Spunky also added, you are of little real use to your family if you do not help them with your honesty. As far as a functioning system is concerned, it is utterly counter productive to do anything else.

It has to be said also that Michael makes a very valid additional point. There are ways of telling a Godfather you think their ideas won't work, without provoking a volatile reaction. Speaking honestly but carefully should always be the way. With friends, superiors, in the streets and to yourself. Anything else is a profitless waste of time."   

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Kizira turns her attention to the first person that started speaking to her. She smiled politely as she listened.

I do not mean to imply that you should not do as your Godfather or leader asks at the time they ask. I am just more curious if people hold back their opinions out of fear.

I can respect that my example may not be great but it is what I have to work with at this present moment. Of course there are tonnes of other situations that may come up, more detailed and lots of variables to take into account as well.

I am glad to hear that you wouldn't hold back on the honesty though. I have heard many times that the honest people seem to be lacking, but I am not entirely sure about that.

Slightly turning to watch another member of the community walk over, she couldn't help but feel a bit of awe at the trail that seemed to follow him. Quickly shutting her mouth she started to focus on what he was saying to her.

Thank you for coming out and speaking with the example of your own district. I get the sense that you appreciate those with brains, rather than the ability to say yes to everything. Glad to see once again that honesty is a valued asset with you.

Nodding towards the third man to approach, she also listened closely.

Yes they are relatively old journals but I have tried to keep them well cared for.

I realize that you and Satanta have brought up timing. Is there a chance that timing can be off? I mean in a matter of discussions you can't always time certain things as you wish to. You may not know your leaders schedule down to their last free second so in that regard it could very much be a guessing game.

Now I want to flip something just for perspective sake. You mentioned that you can't be disrespectful to your leaders with names. That is understandable and should be that way but on the flip side, some leaders may be like talking to bricks. Where you may ask them questions and they do not ever reply. Or maybe they snap. Could be an off day for both people. Clearly the timing and the extra stressors would not make for a great combination in a discussion. So do you think that timing can always be perfect? The extra stressors and variables that could come with it could be so predicted?

Lastly she turned to Curtis. She pondered the discussion that most seemed to be agreeing with each other about.

Just because it is counterproductive do you think it does not happen? Do you think a new member of our community may not shy away from doing more than nodding along just to save their own skin out of fear?

Stepping back slightly with a ponderous look as she mulls over the discussion a bit longer.

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I have heard many times that the honest people seem to be lacking, but I am not entirely sure about that. 

"You have never heard that said by anyone other than an absolute fucking moron."

I can respect that my example may not be great but it is what I have to work with at this present moment. Of course there are tonnes of other situations that may come up, more detailed and lots of variables to take into account as well.

"No, there are none. None that would alter the simple principal of being forthright and honest when your leader asks you about something. Except maybe their appearance if the person in question is Barry."

Now I want to flip something just for perspective sake. You mentioned that you can't be disrespectful to your leaders with names. That is understandable and should be that way but on the flip side, some leaders may be like talking to bricks. Where you may ask them questions and they do not ever reply. Or maybe they snap. Could be an off day for both people. Clearly the timing and the extra stressors would not make for a great combination in a discussion. So do you think that timing can always be perfect? The extra stressors and variables that could come with it could be so predicted?

"You wait. You work hard and you wait. if your questions do not get answered then you accept it and wait. Or move on. A decent leader or higher-up will always try to get back to you on any questions or issues you may raise. If they don't then it would seem you are working for the wrong people."

Just because it is counterproductive do you think it does not happen? Do you think a new member of our community may not shy away from doing more than nodding along just to save their own skin out of fear?  

"I meant it would be counter productive for the leader to want anything other than honest responses. Having said that, it is rarely anything other than counter productive for the member in question to be anything other than honest when asked by their leader. Sure, its natural for a new initiate to be nervous and it will take time to build confidence but again, any leader worth their salt will see the situation and work toward putting the new blood's mind at rest. They will do what they can to ensure the new member feels secure, safe and protected and then encourage them to communicate freely with them."

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The truth is a powerful concept. It is abstract, but it is extremely potent, both as a tool and as a weapon. It must be handled carefully.

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i myself have always been honest with anyone i cross paths with and indeed when it comes to your Crew leader i believe it to be vital, if your not happy and do not tell you leader how will he/she know that something needs fixed it would take a very bold person to stand infront of their crew and say they know absolutely everything and there is no room for improvement and its all hunkydory.I believe if you argue your case in a constructive manner (not objecting so to speak, if a CL/hand/GF asks you to do it you do it) but be sure to get your point across sometimes even the greatest minds miss something and a fresh angle is good to heed for future reference.

Lying to your Crew leader only causes both sides to grow unhappy and it could have an effect on the rest of the crew, issues should always be dealt with thats what your boss is for, there is always a solution  

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Curtis, I do not agree. Just because people feel that others lack the ability to be honest does not mean they are a moron. Perhaps something has made them think such.

Thank you for answering my questions though. I appreciate the further insight into how other people view our community.

Kizira nodes to Vercetti.

It is very true that it should be used carefully but all the time. Not just every now and then when you feel like it. I don't think anyone should be scared of speaking honestly.

Turning slightly to Supremacy.

Do you really believe a CL would be unhappy if they did not know? Can someone be unhappy with something they don't know? I do know that unhappiness can cause even the best members to act rashly and out of frustration.

However, I wonder if everyone actually respects honesty as much as they claim to.

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 Just because people feel that others lack the ability to be honest does not mean they are a moron.

"This is a statement saying some people are incapable of being honest. That is not what you said before at all. Initially You said:"

I have heard many times that the honest people seem to be lacking, 

"This implies that honest people are somehow deficient, lacking in attributes or qualities. Very different.

Unless you intended that to mean that there is a general deficiency in the number of honest people. In which case it might serve to have worded it a little more carefully." 

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Having paused a moment in the cold weather hearing the speech, and the question that followed it, Goddess pulled her thoughts together and took a deep breath, before clearing her throat and stepping forward.

In the hours I sit at home at night, I read through the journals of my grandmothers as well. It comforts me to read the stories of old, and to learn more about how things used to be done. One thing I am a firm believer in is that honesty goes hand in hand with trust. I was raised that if you cannot be honest, then how can you be trusted? It may not be the same for everyone, but I know I cannot trust someone who lies to me.

I may not have my own family, but I know that if I did, and I found out a member of that family lied to me about something, I would not trust them again. You cannot have family members you cannot trust, it makes for a very rocky foundation, and can create all sorts of problems.

Now I am not saying that in order to be honest you must be disrespectful. From what I have seen, a lot of the people whose bloodlines are new to this world of ours have no yet learned what respect is. You can respectfully disagree with someone, and be truthful about your opinion, without disobeying orders or being rude.

Anyway, I know I am rambling, point of the matter is, you should always be honest with others, especially your upper structure, as lying will get you nowhere but swimming with the fishes, in my opinion. If you aren't seeing alone the same lines as them, maybe just word it a little carefully. Maybe even suggest an alternative solution, if you aren't sure it will go over well. For example, and yes it is a crude example but it is the best I can do on short notice, instead of saying "no that is a stupid idea, are you a fucking idiot", maybe try to word it a good bit more respectfully. Such as "I am not sure that is the best route to go, maybe we can come up with some alternatives."  Just a suggestion!

Goddess chuckles a bit, as she had heard people try the bad example part of her example, and had seen how it ended up. She then shrugged and smiled, then stepped back into the small crowd to try to warm up a bit as she listened, pulling her jacket tighter around her as she started to shiver a little.

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Honesty.

Maria considered this, chewed the words around in her mouth, bounced a few thoughts through her head.

It can mean many things, can't it? Many things to many people.

But, to me... honesty is about having the balls to be straight up with people. 

Got a problem with someone? With them as a person, with how they do things? Say it straight to them. Explain it to them. Tell them what's up. Don't be a back biting little bitch who runs about the place chatting shit to others but won't say a word to this persons face. That's just kinda pathetic. Sit on it if you must, but if you choose to NOT be honest about things to somebody, it's best to just keep it very deeply to yourself. Although, that just stores up problems for later.

Personally, as I believe that any ancestors of the late Godfather Mako who may or may not walk these shores could probably attest to, when I had an issue with something, Mako heard about it. I'd try where I could to approach it in a way that offered alternatives to the things I had issues with, though. 

So I think that's how you balance the need to be honest with the need to keep yourselves alive. Don't just head in and bitch about shit, offer an alternative wherever possible.

Maria shrugs.

I'd sooner be dead than a liar, though.

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Well I have been fairly lucky, I have been with Haven since day one after Cristiano ascended to Godfather after I had just joined him.  I have been afforded multiple opportunities with his crew, district and Haven then  more with North Side after Haven moved.  I have never really felt the need to lie to her, but I have been open and honest even when it may not of been exactly the answer that was looked for.  I know at the end me and Haven can weigh up the pro's and con's and at the end you know can only hope for the best.

I think you have to be honest even if it can go against you moving forward as the truth is everyone may have different intimate knowledge of a person or  a scenario even if not the one perceived by the handling of a matter or even a view on someone to set up.  Is the hard choices, that fall on the Godfather/mothers heads though if all goes wrong.

I think if your gonna lie, sooner or later will just be something to catch you in and maybe hang you by, however I believe being forward even when may go against you sometimes is a must, some leaders will respect it, others fear it but most will notice it, especially if you were right..

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