TIIYAH was doing her usual walks through the streets, when she came upon a very good discussion being held by Katra, Katra did hold a valid point and so she stepped into with her own thoughts on Questionable Loyalty.

Thank you Katra for coming out into the streets with a discussion that could very well hold good and bad points for either side.

From my own point of view, I would fight tooth and nail or in the end die for my family, My CL, Godfather, District and my city of Chicago now that we have become one. I believe the Loyalty is a very important value to hold and it is one that will get a person far. <font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">My mother TIIYAH also held Loyalty very close to her and she died knowing that she had </font>fulfilled<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)"> this person.</font>

<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">Now as her Kin, Did i have to follow in my mothers footstep, No i </font>didn't<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">. I </font>would've<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)"> have </font>chosen<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)"> a very different path and have gone to a completely different city, Would it have been a bad thing? Not as i see it due to it being my choice and not my mothers.</font>

<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">However from her journal which stated her views among those she was close with and the love that she held for her district and those living in it, i too wish to carry on her legacy and work my butt off in hopes to gain the same relationships that she had managed to create. </font>

Now if the war had not gone as my mother wished, and there came a time where she could have "jumped ships" with a offer being handed to her in order to survive, <font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">I highly doubt she would have taken it as she was very loyal to her district and she held both her CL and Godfather in high regards. So Thank You again Katra for this </font>discussion<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">.</font>

And with that she turned and headed back to walking through the streets.

Katra stared at Jonathan. As soon as the word respect came out of his mouth her mind started reeling at it. That was entirely something else to her but she continued to listen nonetheless.

While I can appreciate your thoughts mine somewhat differ. I cannot respect everyone. I can, however, be civil. In order for me to respect someone there has to be something that I can admire about them. Not everyone has this ability to affect me so. I do think this goes both ways though. If you expect mine, I will expect yours. Simply put.

Power and corruption. This could be a whole new topic to open up. I do not have to be loyal to power. It is not a leader's power that makes me want to be loyal to them. It is traits that they possess that seem lacking in so many others.

I can agree that I have to respect who I am loyal to. Otherwise I probably wouldn't be loyal to them.

Turning her head towards Guevara, Katra refocuses her attention.

An absolute power is only as good as the people that are willing to give up everything for those in power. Now you can see that there are people that clearly wouldn't take a bullet for their leader. Some that would rather gain for themselves whatever they wanted at the cost of losing their leader.

Don't get me wrong, there are some of us that still think loyalty should be high up there. You are correct though that times have changed where it is concerned. So many people want to focus on suggesting that the best members of our community are those that can use their money from home to get themselves ahead. It is no longer the people that give up everything for their leaders that are viewed to be valued. It is more often those that would prefer to take care of themselves first, and then maybe, just maybe invest in the leader that took them in.

But they certainly wouldn't die for them if they could save themselves. Those are the people that I take issue with. That makes their so called loyalty questionable.

Turning once more to Barry, she chuckles softly.

I did not touch on your example because it held no bearing to what I was referring to but now I can use it. While your example of Batiatus may be correct in the standing of everyone dying with their leaders, I have to agree with Scriba here. When I speak of ship jumpers I automatically speak of those from the dying side of the war to save themselves. As far as I am aware your member was in the same city as you picked them up in. Philly did not lose the current war, sure some leaders, but not the whole war so in my eyes they are not being disloyal.

That being said it makes sense that someone from New York moving into say a Chicago family would thereby be a disloyal ship jumping mongrel in my views. The nonsense is the reasoning that people give for this. If someone was once a hand and was a high ranking member of the losing side, I would expect them to also be dead. I know that the winning side makes "safe lists" and it is one aspect that really grinds my gears.

As far as lemmings go.. Sometimes I wonder if they make more sense logically.

Katra rubbed her temples. Sometimes her thoughts never stopped and gave her a headache. Turning lastly to DiamonDz as she listened to the young woman.

Ah I would just like to reiterate that I am not speaking of next of kins. I personally don't care what a next of kin does because that is their own decision. It is the here and now. The loyalty to your current crewleader or godfather that you started off with joining and that died ahead of you in a first wave of a war. Or perhaps a second. Or third, but you get my drift.

I appreciate your views on this matter though. It is nice to hear that some people can still have loyalty in their blood.

Katra wandered around the group of gathered people. Her head throbbing with an oncoming migraine. Deciding to take a bit of a stroll she leaves the group to contemplate what has been said. Figuring she'll resume the talks as soon as people gather once more.

Naomi listens carefully to everything being said. She appreciates hearing all the different views about loyalty.  It’s hard to question the loyalty of a person you don’t actually know.  With the concepts of alternative motives and conspiracy theories you never know as to why someone would join a certain crew.  You would only hope it was for the right reasons to them.

“I will just let the big boys try and figure this one out.   She thinks to herself with a smile "If you want real loyalty - get a dog. If you want loyalty and attention - get a smart dog."  

It’s getting a little chilly.  Naomi pulls her hat a little tighter around her head, tugs at the collar on her coat and slowly walks down the street.

I think Naomi has said it right how can you question somebodies loyalty without actually knowing what their plan is. We live in the world of organised crime and not everything is black and white. Just because someone has pledged to a leader or a Godfather does not mean that they intend to be loyal to them. They may be playing a long game to infiltrate an organisation to knowledge of their weaknesses and see if they can acquire valuable information. To you and I from the outside it may look like their loyalty is questionable but to them they are doing what they set out to do. 

For example when 303 started out as thugs on their last run, I am pretty sure that their aim was to become the powerhouse they became, Their loyalty was not to those that authed them but to their group, they played it perfectly and got to the top and stayed there for some time. Yes people could question their loyalty but as a group they were loyal to themselves. Can you say they were wrong to do that? 

My bloodline personally has always been loyal to my CL and hope that those under me will show me the same loyalty but you will never know because it is almost impossible to find out unless they slip up.

As I mentioned earlier this is the mafia and for as long as it has been going people have lied, stole and cheated their way to the top and it will never stop

Spunky I can say with utmost certainty that you are incorrect.

Johnny, Dan and Desmand were ALWAYS loyal to their Dons, Toy and Cantillon. Those three always had the old west side uppers in their hearts (Which led to be the 303) but they never had the idea to "overthrow" or take over. They wanted revenge against Godfathers JakeLuciano, DeadlySpikeS, Solastalgia and the other Czylharz era members that they had felt betrayed them. It didn't work exactly how they wanted it to however.

The Czylharz regime began infighting at such a fast pace that this world had large scale wars every two weeks and many mafioso from around the country fell. Toy, and New York, had become lucky that no one had ever targeted them. After two months of wars, almost everyone from the original Czylharz movement had fallen. Don Maple and Godfather JakeL remained, but we had vowed to not attack them out of respects for Toy Armadillo and Don Cantillon who had been raised and protected by the two of them. As time passed, Jake had retired from his position as Godfather and left Don Maple in charge of Chicago.

They had started out with a plan of revenge, but we ended up fucking it up by becoming close to the others. I personally couldn't feel right destroying the trust between my bloodline and Toaly's among others. (Firenza & Lush). We just did our own thing with New York and many can attest to this.

After four of us had become leaders (Goku, Johnny, Dan and Desmand) we had finally publically represented our tags. It was never some big plan of ours to overthrow the game and take over. We wanted a select few dead, and that was accomplished due to the paranoia of people and our own war efforts as a collective unit of New York.

I can say I didn't listen to much of the conversation, but that particular line that Godfather Spunky had said had me thinking. 

Well given the last couple of people to come speak all I can gather is that I am right to question loyalties. If it is normal for people to be loyal to something other than their leaders then it is something to think about.

Could it be that they feel their leaders are inferior? Or just plain shit? I mean I can grasp not enjoying your time with your leader. Working hard for so little other than to set up your leaders next of kin can seem somewhat frustrating to me.

But on the other hand Spunky it is black and white to me. If you pledge your loyalty to a leader, it's till death unless they fall by something other than losing a side of the war. Those that jump over to the winning side are merely untrustworthy individuals looking to save their own skins.

Safe lists in a war for people on the opposing side that are high ranked should not exist. As far as I am concerned.

"I always thought the answer to this question was pretty simple, as well as universal. After hearing what some people here had to say I now see that my assumption was wrong, although I still stand true to that belief myself. That being, loyalty is not simply to ones family head/Don, or district head/Godfather, but to the family.

I mean, we have all been through the same ceremony, have we not?" Don Ross stops speaking for a second and takes a look around. He scans through the people present, trying to find a face that doesn't fit. Once feeling safe that there wasn't any G-Men around, he went back to speaking, but was still careful with the words that he chose. "Anyone here that's got their button has been through it. Now, while that card burns in our hand, we swear that our souls shall burn as well if we ever go against our family. That is where my loyalty lies. 

We are told that we shall live by the knife and the gun, and we shall die by the knife and the gun. I mean sure, I understand if some chump associates decide to get the hell out of dodge when the shit hits the fan, but a Made Guy? You have been accepted into the family and have sworn do live and die for it. I don't think anyone that has had the books opened up to them should be taking any sort of pass or protection. If the ship is sinking, then fuck it, hold your breath and hope for the best. I'm the last person you'll find scrambling for a spot on a life raft. I'll be standing right next to my Godmother waving my pistol around in the air wearing the same suit as Sean Connery in "Diamonds Are Forever". Fuckin' bow tie and all.

But that's just me. Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believe in 'to each his own'. Everyone's got their own opinion, and it's not my place to judge. This is just my opinion on this topic and how I feel about all this. I guess the easiest way to put it is 'Family First'."

Katra and CrissCross, I agree like I said earlier my bloodline has always followed my leader down whatever path they have lead me. My bloodline has been given the opportunity to turn in the past but has never taken and  gone down with the ship so to speak. I know where my loyalty lies and you know where yours lies but can you really judge someone when you don't know the whole story.

I have a question that is going to hit the murky grey area. This is a hypothetical question but if your leader that you swore loyalty to asked you to remove yourself from this world and ask your daughter to infiltrate another family? How would you answer? What you stay loyal to your leader?

Naomi with her most loyal four legged friend strolls back where the crowd is gathered having a conversation.   She gains her confidence to speak a few words.

I know I am just a trusted servant and by no mean s want to disrespect to anyone.  It’s nice to hear how people would go down with sinking ships, their past and present loyalties.  But when I first started listening to the conversation I felt the topic was more or less about is it possible to be loyal to someone if you cannot be loyal to the family before you.   Again to judge someone saying that they can’t be loyal because they join a certain crew is absurd. Not only are you questioning that person’s loyalty but also the integrity of the leader that accepted that person into their family and gave them the honors of being Made. .  No one has any idea what transpired between them. The amends for the killing of a bloodline might have constituted joining that particular family and acceptable...  That does not mean that person can’t or won’t be loyal to their new leader and family.  Granted you might say well I couldn’t do that, well that’s you.  Any casualty of war that finds them self in a safe haven and well compensated, I say more power to them. I wish them the best.   Doesn’t mean they won’t be loyal nor disgraced their bloodline.  Then again if the alternative motive for joining that family is anything other than to be loyal, the repercussions lies with the one who extended the invitation, no one else.   That’s just my humble opinion.  Everyone have a nice day.

Thank you CrissCross for joining the conversation. I can appreciate your views on loyalty since they are so similar to my own.

Katra looks over at Spunky.

Honestly? I would be the worst person to ask to infiltrate another family. Since I feel so strongly on the loyalty issue that I could not fake an allegiance to a leader I do not wish to be with. Anyone that can do so, can so easily lie to their own leader. That is my belief. Any leader I have should be very aware of that since I make it no secret.

Therefore your grey area is not grey to me. It is just as black and white as anything else.

Could you do it? So easily lie and sign another family's rule book under the guise of being loyal to a family you have no interest in?

Spotting a nervous member of the community Katra smiled warmly and waited patiently as they got their thoughts out.

Ah, well both sides could be argued for I suppose. I know I have seen arguments for each. I just haven't seen a good argument for jumping ships, nor for a leader to promote the ship jumper to a spot of high respect. Seems silly to me still.

The fault may lie with the person to send that invite but the fall out of someone not being loyal can lead to many deaths that could have been prevented. Of course that is if a fall out were to happen.

Thank you though for speaking your opinion.

Naomi comes back to the table one more time.

I would like to extend my humble apology for sharing on a topic where I lack knowledge of certain things that might have transpired and obviously is more than I can comprehend.

I was under the misconception the topic was about those from a fallen family, who found themselves on the scum ridden streets of the city, who opts to accept an invitation a certain crew and their loyalties were being questioned.  

I can’t fathom myself ever being disloyal to my family and extend the same assessment to all my family members.

We all know that turncoats are inevitable in a family, but with the understanding of blood in blood out in this thing of ours, it’s hard for me to grasp the jumping ship concept.  

However confused I thank you for letting me share.

Infiltrating another family is only something I would do for my closest friends and potentially a leader I really trust. Conversely, if I was a leader I would ask such a thing only from my most loyal and trustworthiest member. An interesting point you raised here, I must say.

Those that swap families when their leaders die in a war are traitors and should be dealt with accordingly: with a bullet. After all, if they were so quick and keen to join another family, who says they are loyal to you?

Katra flashes a smile to Naomi.
 

By all means apologies are not necessary here. Perhaps I did not word it in a way that the difference of meaning could be told. Either way I appreciate your input regardless.  So thank you for taking the time to speak up.

Turning towards Keynes she found herself looking at a familiar face. Perhaps she had seen him not long ago on another street corner she mused. Anyways she listened as well as she could.

I can see where you are coming from. Logically if you trusted your leader that much and thought you could maintain that role that is your choice. Personally I could never don a family name in which I could not be loyal to.

Naomi moves closer to Katra

My bloodline was killed  while she was sleeping.  If she would have had the opportunity I know she would have fought to the end.

Katra smiles at Naomi.

Can't fault them for something they cannot control. I know many died in their sleep that night.