Kale, I do see how it might be odd that one would steal from a family member. However with this being said, would it not be odd that one would not shoot the random person that they do not know whatsoever for doing that same thing? The fact of the matter is, we have rules and guidelines that are posted within certain city limits to make these odd happenings okay. So unless your family rules and/or city rules that you are visiting state any different, common sense I think would lead you to shrug those family members you aren't so close with that dip their hands into your pockets off. If anything let them know that your status of not being friendly towards people diving into your pockets also goes out to family members. Turning around and attacking them by mugging them is the last thing one should do as again, common sense should kick in and you should be able to understand how burning a plane ticket of theirs or stealing their gun is about the last thing you would want to do to a family member as that could lead to you and your entire crew getting wiped out if another family were to attack them. Taking $5,000 from a family member does not warrant a mugging in my book as that could cost your family member up to $500,000 for a gun if they can find one to purchase or the wait time to work for a gun and again, in this time an enemy can come forward and attack. Do you think $5,000 is worth putting you and your entire family at risk? Yes the risk is small but the risk is still there. I recently seen you walking down the street and noticed that you don't even mention that you are also unfriendly to family members as well in your pockets. Hopefully they have seen your posts by now so they know not to even bother but I would think that would be a fairly important thing to leave out. As myself, I tend to not even look for these tags when picking pockets of family members. Would I be surprised if one of my family members turned around and mugged me for it? Hell yes I would, if they were so upset with it all they need to do is tell me and it would be corrected and they would be paid off with whatever they felt made it right. Much like we do with other accidents that occur on these streets such as a corrupt agent being wrongfully killed or a body guard being wounded or killed. Sometimes this results in death, others it results in a payment to the victim that pays for whatever loss they had and plenty more. There is always a better solution than attacking a family member. 

As Afghan finishes his long winded speech he turns and begins walking down the street back to his families headquarters.

With all this pickpocket talk, I think I will go take a dive into Conor's pockets. He's usually got something of worth in there and rarely even sees me.

Chuckling, Afghan picks the pace up to catch Conor before he heads out for his next job.

Raoul smiles at @Kalebear  before speaking.

Apologies for the delay in responding to you, I am easily distracted and... oh a penny!

Ummm, sorry, yeah. Where was I? Oh yes. With the exception of one person, Lancelot, every person that has mugged me has had nothing in their profile about being pick pocket friendly or unfriendly. The people from my district included. When I picked Lancelot's pocket, I could clearly see that Lancelot was unfriendly to people going through his pockets, I knew the risks, and I accepted them gladly. There were a few reasons for this. It was a kind of game, gambling if it were, $5k my reward, vs a beat down if I were seen. I was already planning on heading to bed for the evening, so it was a risk I was willing to take. I've never spoken to Lancelot before, so I had no doubts in my mind that if he saw me, he'd mug my sorry ass, which is exactly what happened, and i even messaged him to say well done, and we exchanged pleasantries and had a laugh about it.

My issue is with people in your own district mugging you, without so much as a warning. People in your own family mugging you, without even asking for their money back. Sure if Curtis Picks my pocket, and I clearly say I am unfriendly to it, its a kind of disrespect, but at the end of the day Curtis is my Crew Leader and my Godfather. If he commands me to suicide in order to prove my loyalty to him, I will do this. My life is his to command. So if he feels that he needs to put his hand in my pocket and relieve me of 5k, I would never dream of mugging him. What is 5k compared to my life?

The same holds true if his LHM or RHM were to do the same, or one of his captains. I have faith that if they did something that Curtis was unhappy with, he'd punish them.

Now you say that the rules are simple, pick a pocket and accept that you could be mugged. Well yes I accept that, and I think I have proven that I accept that. However, there is a line. I am a member of a family and my right to revenge has to be tempered with restraint. As a former LHM of two families, a Don in my own right and therefore a made man, as well as a member of the personal family of the head of New York, I carry a certain amount of respect. you may not respect me as a person, but you have to respect my position, otherwise you have no respect for your own position or that of any member of our society. If an Earner or a wiseguy were to insult me in public, most would say that I would have every right to kill him where he stands, or at least challenge him to a duel. There are times that I want to do this, but for various reasons I don't. The loss of my life would be a burden on the crew, or the loss of the other persons life would do the same or one of Curtis's captain's crews. The person is important in some sense such as an up and coming hitter, or the personal pro shooter for a Don or what have you, or their death may strain relations with one of our close allies.

To me, mugging is exactly the same, why would you risk your own safety for personal revenge? Why would you risk the lives of everyone in your city by potentially disabling your CL or one of his trusted advisors? For simple revenge? Revenge has to be tempered, the need for revenge has to be controlled in certain situations. The need for revenge in this case could easily be assuaged by a simple mail stating your displeasure and demanding your money back. Things in this life are rarely black or white and you always have to consider the longer implications of any action you take, and are you prepared to pay the price of your actions.

You finish with what I believe is a flippant question:

What I am truly interested in, is why you think it is okay to go around pickpocketing those that are unfriendly to it in your own home? Would you steal the money for your sisters surgery out of her room too?

Where did I state that it was OK to do this or that I did this? Most of my speech was geared towards mugging from people in your own family who give no indication of being friendly or unfriendly towards pick pocketing. I never once stated that the initial pick pocket was against someone who was clearly unfriendly to it. Now, having said that, if the fault of being unclear on that point is mine, I apologise for it. I don't pickpocket members of my own family who are clearly against it, I have more sense than to put them in the position of wanting revenge on me. However, if by some fluke I did miss their dislike and pick pocketed them, a simple mail would resolve the issue and gain an apology, and probably compensation to boot. After all, they are my family, not a complete stranger.

Out of curiosity and I realize this is an extreme example, but would you also let your associates and members practice their shooting skills on each other as well?

Moonbeam, that would pretty much sum up why it is here. Thank you.

afghan-mango, you are correct my sign does not say whether to family or not. I had hoped that people would be smart enough to deduce that I did not say I am pickpocket friendly to family that I would mug them. Perhaps this would be a great way for them to learn about it I suppose. Thank you for your views, even though I do not agree with them personally.

Katra turns to Raoul.

Well I commend you on your loyalties to hands. Mine vary slightly on this opinion but my loyalty to Kelly is absolute. So if the right hand or left hand pickpocketed me they should expect to be mugged if seen. Does this make me disrespectful? Perhaps. Do I think less of them if they were in my pockets, disregarding my own wishes but expecting theirs to be followed? Oh yeah. Make no mistake, I fully believe respect goes both ways in all cases.

My question isn't flippant at all. In fact it is quite useful in comparing acts of family. You don't know what the money of your fellow family members is going to be used for here. You may not know what it is going to be used for, for your far off family outside of the mafia. So yeah it is a pretty good comparison I think.

Turning lastly to Batiatus once more.

Interesting enough I think. Thank you for sharing

How exactly does pickpocketing someone hinder them? Pickpocketing a family member can be in jest, usually followed by the pick pocketer catching up to them and giving them their money back with a chuckle or two. It hinders them in no way.

Mugging can and does hinder someone. Why do that to a family member unless they're ok with it? Makes no sense to me. Personally I'd shoot them. Pissants.

You seem to have ignored 95% of what I said in favour for the 5% that you can pick holes in Kalebear. You clearly state that you are not pick pocket friendly and you mug. Again, I reiterate, my response revolved around people mugging members of their own family when they had made no such declaration. So perhaps if you were to listen to what I said and not what you wanted to hear, you'd see the issue i have with people with no stance on Pick Pocketing mugging important members of their own family. In fact, let me turn it around. If you were pick pocket friendly, and a LHM or RHM picked your pocket, should they still expect to be mugged by you?

And yes you are right, it is highly disrespectful. As Achilles said, people with that level of disrespect for the rulers of their city or district should be shot.

Now hopefully that my point about mugging from people who aren't pick pocket unfriendly on members of their own family has hopefully sunk in on the 3rd attempt, can you see how I find your question flippant? Can you see how me robbing my own sister of money required for surgery has absolutely no bearing on whether I pick pocket a member of my own crew how has not explicitly said please do not put your hands in my pocket?

If you pickpocket someone who is openly unfriendly to it, and they mug you. Fair enough.

If you pickpocket someone who isn't open about it, but decides to mug you even though you're in the same family. I think there's a lot of different interpretations you can make on this one. Have they stated to you multiple times that they do not wish to be pickpocketed and you continue to ignore their various warnings? Do they openly say they're pickpocket friendly and yet decided this one time that they would try for a mug out of humorous intentions? Are you aware of the intentions? and so on, so forth.

I think most people have already made enough points that I don't need to really go on about it too much, but if someone from my family mugged me and I was not expecting it, perhaps because we pickpocketed each other various times before or they've never gave me warning that they were against it; from a mafia stand-point that sounds like a pretty stupid thing to do on their part.

I've never actually been bothered with being mugged myself. I kind of enjoy being beat down, maybe its my thing? I would say that 80% of the muggings I've personally heard about, have been justified to a point. I rarely have ran into an incident where the person mugged didn't know the risk they were taking before they got mugged.

Achilles, I am going to assume if they pickpocketed that they are okay with the consequences of that action. It is well known now what the risks of pickpocketing are.

Raoul_Silva, I caught that but there is nothing more that I can say to that other than, are you aware of the possibility of being mugged when you pickpocket? In this day and age we see so many hypocrites as it is. Those that carry tags reading "Pickpocket unfriendly" but go around pickpocketing people. There have been a few that I have heard of that say "Pickpocket friendly" and then mug everyone. It just seems logical if there is no tag to assume that they will mug you.

Well you can believe as you wish that it was flippant, but it doesn't come across that way to myself. We can agree to disagree.

Ted, you make a good point. I mean there are various factors for every situation that affect reactions. I get that it can be hard to generalize without going into massive details. I will say that when I first came upon this thought I was thinking more along the lines of those that are tagged clearly that they will mug, and that family does ignore it and then feel obligated to send a lovely mail stating that they shouldn't have been mugged for it. To me this is clearly backwards thinking. To me, family should be respecting your wishes, and not feeling obligated to gain special treatment for disregarding your own wishes.

If a member of my family/friend PP's me I'll prob let it go.  However it take 5 seconds to send the person the money back.  

If the person requests return, a lack of return can be construed as lack of respect.  

If you feel your family shouldn't mug you because you respect your family.  Maybe people should pay back because they respect family.

This is a pretty touchy subject. We are Mafioso and Mafioso pick pocket people period. If you get seen then you can get rolled. The one condition I believe that should exist is if the person who PP'd you outranks you. I think we have taken this PP unfriendly way too far. I mean at the most its $5k, if you cant make $5k in less than 3 min, then you aren't a good Mafioso to start with.

We are all criminals and as such will try and con people out of money whenever we can after all its our way of life, however if you get caught then you will more than likely suffer the consequences, those who are not friendly to our ways will almost certainly give you a beat down if you are stupid enough to get caught which as Raoul stated earlier some people are willing to take their chances, I do however agree with another thing the late Raoul said and that is the matter of family personally I don't agree with mugging my fellow brothers and sisters for obvious reasons, but as with all things in life actions will always have reactions.

I honestly never understood the term "PP friendly". We're mobsters. Can you imagine us giving a flying fuck about that sign of yours when we reach in your pockets for a quick buck? No one likes being pickpocketed, honestly. But in this part of the world, can we really help it? Not really. And like most agree on here, mugging is a consequence that we're willing to risk.

But when family is involved, there should always be serious consideration. Say if some low ranking mobster in your crew steals from you, and you're among the trusted button men, then I say, mug that bitch. If he's looking for a way into the inner circle of the family, he just searched the wrong pockets for it. He should have known better than to steal from members of the family he's working for. But if it's one of your friends, then I'd leave that to your judgement. I don't mind being a sport about being pickpocketed by friends and close colleagues, as I always like to be kept on edge. It can save your life sometimes, trust me. But that's just me being my paranoid self.

Anyways these are my two cents to add to the discussion.

Walder was new to these shores. He needed to learn quickly the ways of the life he had chosen and while he had learned much in the short time he had arrived, he still felt that there was more to learn. He stepped up to where the group of people had gathered and cleared his throat

I come from a land far, far away from here. There are many different types of people and they commit many different types of crimes. Some feel that they are not crimes at all, while others show clearly their negative stances on issues. In this case I feel that family is all important. Your own family should mean more to you while on these shores than anything else. But the question that has been posed is between a loyalty for family against the clear retribution attempt by yourself to gain recompense for a said crime on you by another family member.

Mugging is a clear attack, its a clear way to hurt the other person. Pickpocketing, really is not. From what I am aware, the maximum anyone has ever stolen in an attempt is only 5 thousand dollars. This is peanuts to people in our profession, so why people are annoyed enough to retaliate with a mugging is beyond me. Especially for a family member.

Now this is different when a person clearly states beforehand that they do not want to be mugged, as this is then a clear attack on them, and what they stand for. It is a clear attempt to bully another person and see if they can get away with it. 

As such I feel while a family member should not mug back, as it is a far stronger response, a person should not pickpocket another family member that does not want to be pickpocketed anyway. It is probably something that family leaders should discuss and add to their rules, as of course every family will be different, and every family different punishments. You will get to see how your family leader really is as a person based on the outcomes of such scenarios, and perhaps show you really what sort of a person you are working for.

Walder had said enough and decided to step down and slither back to the shadows where he spent most of his time

Kale cringed slightly as she listened to Louie. Turning to face him she tried to keep her face void of any emotion.

A pay back does not mean they can blatantly ignore your wishes in return for their own. If you respect your family, you leave their pockets alone if they do not wish your hands in them. I don't think pay back dissolves the disrespect so easily.

Kale turns to look at reverandmm.

I disagree that rank should outweigh everything. Some people may feel that rank allows you to do whatever you want. It doesn't. Regardless of rank you wouldn't be able to shoot just anyone. Let's say you are a Don in a family, you wouldn't be able to shoot another city's gangster. Not to mention that if someone from Philadelphia whose Boss pickpockets a Wise Guy from New York. There is a great possibility that just because they are high ranked in Philly that a Wise Guy from New York will know them from John Doe. Perhaps it would work within the family but even then it would be greatly disrespectful in my eyes for someone to pull rank just to get their hands in someone else's pocket.

Listening to Lancelot, Kale is reminded of all the things she just said to reverandmm.

We may have to agree to disagree. Being family doesn't mean you get to ignore the wishes of other members so that you may gain a couple of bucks and some experience shoving your hands where they do not belong. I think you do have it right when you say that all actions have a consequences. This one just happens to screw someone's day up if they had hopes of traveling and their flights were cancelled.

Smiling once more as she notices Daemon.

I think you may be following me around sir. However, I disagree on one point, nobody likes to be pickpocketed? I have seen individuals that love being pickpocketed, they thrive off it and that's okay. At least it is okay for them. That is their choice.

Noticing a new face amongst the crowd she moved closer. The better to hear them, Kale thought to herself.

I don't think it can be managed quite the way you think it should be. I also don't think it should be managed like that either. While many don't want to get involved with mugging or pickpocketing disputes I do think that the respect, or lack thereof will always outweigh the five thousand that could be taken.

While you believe mugging to be an overreaction, I believe it to be less harsh than I would like. I can't speak for the rest of the non pickpocket friendly people but I hate having someone's hands in my pockets. It is not about the money for me, it is about so much more than that. It is about the ability to control your impulses.

While I gather that people from other cities or even districts may not care. I think it is a whole different ball game when it comes to family. I don't think mugging is enough of a deterrent to have people respect your stance on it within your own family. While you may see mugging as being purely selfish, pickpocketing is completely that in my eyes. You are taking someone's money for a benefit that strictly helps you.

Walder had listened to the last person speak and of course what was spoken was sense. Walder however was always one for seeing both sides of a picture and so decided to offer a few more words.

I totally agree with you with regards to pickpocketing being wrong and to be honest, disrespectful when it is towards someone who clearly does not want to be pickpocketed. You are totally correct. 

But you have to put it into the context of your family. If your brother decided to steal 5 dollars out of your wallet, would you really want him to spend the next week in prison? If you were a child you would expect your parents or guardians to sort it out, dish out a punishment and make sure that they do not do it again. Just as likely as I am sure your parents would not be happy with you, if you decided to enable your brother to go to prison over something that they could have resolved.

You need to think of your crime family as your real family. And no I am not condoning the pickpocketing of those who do not want to be. Of course not. On that I totally agree with you. Nobody should have their space violated, especially by a family member who is supposed to be looking out for them. But you have to realise that this relates to a maximum of 5 thousand dollars. I am quite sure you can make that sort of money in minutes. 

Should your family be attacked, would you want to have all the members you have, around you, protecting you, or would you want one of them stuck, unable to travel, without a gun, just because you lost money that you made within 5 minutes?

I am not saying its right, and I would also be a bit annoyed, especially if I cleared stated pickpocket unfriendly, but I still think it is something that your father or mother, or in this case, your family leader, should decide on the punishment. 

You say you are looking for a bigger punishment than mugging, then of course they can dish out that punishment. Maybe they would surprise you.

Walder was finally finished his rant, and so he licked his lips, which had become extremely dry and sort of moulded back into the dark, the dark where he knew he belonged

For me, Pick Pocketing has never been a big issue in my books. 

I have Pick Pocketed more so for the experience you gain then the money as it is only $5k, an un made person is able to gain 3x that amount from a wealthy grave, However my policy is to have enough respect to payback what i have taken and in my case i send a little extra.

<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">If you dont want to be Pick Pocketed then state your stance and if a person still continues to not respect your wish then so be it, Mug them. For those that choose this route, you should not be a </font>hypocrite<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)"> and go Pick Pocket somebody else as the saying goes "treat others how you would like to be treated'.</font>

<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">Now for the whole mugging your own family situation that people have talked about, I believe that this is a no go area because family are meant to help each other grow, not break them down. What achievement do gain from mugging another person within your own family, Nothing (maybe a bit of lost respect actually).</font>