Daemon stumbles outside the local pub, struggling to find his footing. He had a bit too much to drink, but after having survived the events of the day before, it was much required. After his eyes adjust to the dim lighting, he makes his way over to a nearby streetlight, and lights a cigar. There were quite a few people out and about surprisingly at this time of the night. He takes a long puff, contemplating on a conversation he had encountered earlier today. Leaning on the post, he clears his throat.

"Going out with a bang..."

He pauses to see if it had caught anyone's attention. A few people had stopped to watch, wondering what the drunk guy was on about. Satisfied, he continues.

"Rather a controversial topic don't ya think? There was a discussion earlier today regarding the events of yesterday and this was brought up a couple of times. I felt that since that conversation was centered more around the last war, the topic at hand was not looked into.

So what is it all about? It sounds very fabulous indeed, it does make everyone wanna try it. But my question here is, does the phrase justify the action? Is it something different from just another mass rogueing?

Under what circumstances does one go on a suicidal mission as such? It's always a last resort for most people. But over the years, we've encountered many instances of crewleaders trying to achieve this for various causes. We've seen some do it to avenge their friends, others do it dwelling on some ridiculously old grudges. Hell, I could even recall one taking the shot trying to claim a massive hit that was posted on someone. But is it worth risking your family for? Maybe for the person avenging his friends, he would gain their utmost respect. And maybe even for the person who gained monetary benefit. But they would probably be still branded as selfish traitors and their bloodline would not be trusted with positions of power again.

Now assume the case of a crewleader suspecting that they would be taken out soon, as was that of the late Godmother Inertia. If they were a 100% certain that they were going to be taken out, it's only right that they go out guns blazing. But is a mere suspicion enough cause for allowing your city to be decimated for the sake of crippling their foes? Had the said foes no intentions of attacking, it would have all been in vain losing an entire crew/district.

Another thing that comes to mind when discussing this, is the people who are targeted when one takes his crew/district on a suicide mission. It is safe to say from multiple instances that the aggressors sometimes kill innocent people from a random city which was not involved with, or even suspected to be. Take Godfather Louis-Man for instance, though it may only be half-relevant. After the first wave was executed yesterday, when Bella Vista could not find a target from a district they were up against, they went ahead with shooting the Godfather of Downtown. I mean sure, he was formerly of Chicago and was probably still loyal to them. But he was given his own district to run and moreover, was not not helping Chicago against Bella Vista and was actually asleep at the time he was killed. Eventually it adds up as one for the books, but could killing Louis be justified in any way? It can only be summed up to nothing more than a mere attempt in crippling Chicago of it's allies or simply just adding more kills to the sheets."

He stubs his cigar against the post before flicking it away.

"Anyway, these are my views on the matter, I'm curious to know what others have to say about this."

Well Sovereign, Bella Vista still attacked Louis without being certain about his loyalty to Chicago. He was a Godfather. He was given a district. He was given the right to choose. He could have very well chosen not to get involved in this fuckfest. His death was entirely random and BV can't credit for a rogue shot on him.

I am sure you are not sure. Only way one could be sure is being the person them selves, knowing how they would act. Don't speak on someones behalf which you do not know of.

Kalebear had been strolling around the Streets. She listened to speeches about new leaders going bold, and other things about donations. She was about to give up hope of there being something she could contribute to until she fell upon Daemon speaking. She listened attentively and started to smile. This was it! Something she could sink her teeth into.

Finally organizing her thoughts she began.

I love phrases. Don't you? "Going out with a bang" seems to follow along with the annoying little phrase of "rank up and do something about it." At least it does for me.

I can appreciate that someone wants to go out with a bang. I can appreciate that they feel they will be attacked. I mean who doesn't in this day and age wonder that? Problem is, you can never be 100% certain. There is always rumors, always talk and certainly always someone feeding that little flame in your head saying "I'll be next."

Thing is, sometimes people are wrong. Do I think they should have attacked their own city? God no. That is not going out with a bang. Taking out a city you worked so hard to build up is just crazy. Crazy in my eyes anyways. You want to hurt a big city by killing their allies? Why not hurt the big city itself? Surely that makes more sense than those that have stood beside you, working to create a decent city. Now that work is diminished and will once again have to be redone.

One goes on a suicide mission when they have given up hope of anything ever becoming better. I just can't see why you would suicide mission on a city you helped to build back up, but that is just me.

Kale figures she was done until she remembered a point in this speech that really caught her attention. The one that seemed to make her roll her eyes and laugh at once.

Bloodlines not gaining into positions of power after doing such? I have seen and heard about lines that have jumped ship, or betrayed their godfathers who got into positions of power. It seems more that positions of power are given to those who can buy it, or those who are really liked. Don't get me wrong there are those that work for it that do manage to get it, but there are many cases where it is just as I have said.

Reality is that, that statement is wrong. People's next of kins that fucked up do get trusted again. Sometimes they repeat the performance, and other times their kin fall right into place. You can never tell for certain which way the wind blows.

Simply moving districts and becoming a Godfather does not magically remove your connections to your previous organization, we all know that. 

And while those who move out most certainly can grow apart, Godmother Whatsername and her former Godfather Cantillon for example, it isn't incredibly likely to happen in two weeks.

That was not your pint. But I see what your second statement said.

Besides, if the district of Downtown was going to side with Chicago against Bella Vista, they would have had their Godfather under heavy protection by the time BV decided to take the shot, wouldn't they?

I would say it is fairly common for even those least involved to protect themselves during times of conflict, Daemon. And yesterday should have been no different for Godfather Louis-Man, regardless of his intentions. As Sovereign said, in a conflict like the one yesterday, anyone can really be a target and it typically does seem to be those least involved who pay the price for thinking they are safe.

"I would say it is fairly common for even those least involved to protect themselves during times of conflict, Daemon."

Everyone assumed that the war was between Whatsername's district and her allies. How about city of Las Vegas then? The upper structures of the city were seen shooting members of the Durden crew while the war was in progress and none of them were harmed.

But I do understand what you're getting at. But then again, my view on this doesn't center around this war alone. It has happened in the past, and will probably happen again in the future. Sovereign quoted one such example.

Bigby I think you are just bitterish cause your friends couldn't do more damage because of the rest of the country joining in. Don't forget though, what happened yesterday were the remnants of 303's....and not too long ago, chi/phi had cleared most of that cancer out. What really caught the rest of the leaders off guard was the trust they had in those remnants. I guess we should have started with a clean slate anyway. Thats a lesson for another day though. 

Long story short though, going out with a bang...cost BV the whole district and a bunch of good men. Maybe it was worth it for the previous leaders of BV. I just can't get my head around that thought, especially when the rest of Phi had brought BV into the fold. But to each there own!!! 

Im just a Thug trying to make a living out here!!! Times are hard...ppl are bitter. I demand some sweets Aliens!!! And some Weebl Pies! I need more pie's!!! 

Revy happened upon a speech she found interesting. After the events of the previous day, she found herself quite interested in the discussions that sprang up as a result. Even if she didn't contribute she found herself listening, but this is one she felt she could contribute a little bit to.

Is it different from rogueing? I want to say yes and no. I almost feel like it is rogueing in a sense as you're going against the norms, especially of a typical war, but at the same time it is a standard war more or less. You just go in expecting not to make it out, instead of being in it to win it if you will. I feel like that's the main difference between a typical war and "going out with a bang" as people put it. So no, I don't really feel like it's rogueing, but rather a different style of war.

Taking a moment to gather her thoughts, she then thought about the next point and what she wanted to say about it.

As for the question of when does one decide to go on a suicidal mission? I would hope usually only as a last resort, so pretty much when you expect the worst is coming or you can't go about changing things in any other way. If  things can be changed in another way then of course try those ways first. Options are nice, but they're not always there and I think that's typically when one decides to go on such missions. Is it worth risking your family for? It depends on what you're choosing to fight for and what you're goal is. Most times I want to say no, but if you're expecting death to come for you anyways, why not go out fighting instead? As for the case of what happened yesterday I feel like it was worth it, if you're expecting death to come then by all means fight back before it's too late.

Moving on to the targets of such things, I'm not a fan of shooting at random targets. I think you should have set targets for such a thing and try to take them out first. There's not much point bringing randoms into such affairs. 

As for what LordBlackwod brought up, it had nothing to do with that group of numbers. At least not outside of that one which turned out to be a simple misunderstanding.  

Archy was walking alone through the streets when he heard Daemon, he wasn't in the mood so he lent on a nearby post and decided to listen. It's been such a rough day for him, he looks exhausted, drunk as hell with a bottle of vodka in his hand, he eyes everyone carefully as they speak, then lights a cigarette and takes a deep buff, before deciding it was his turn to speak his mind out and moves among the crowd. 

Daemon, I'm sorry for the loss of Godfather Louis, and the loss of every fellow mobster that died for no real reason, except for someone being paranoid. We have seen a lot of casualties yesterday, may they all rest in peace. But as was said before, late Godfather Louis was an auth of Chicago, specifically Godfather Ajani. I am not saying that his death was inevitable, but it's what happened.

Archy takes another deep buff off his cigarette, and continues

One goes on a suicide mission when they have given up hope of anything ever becoming better. I just can't see why you would suicide mission on a city you helped to build back up, but that is just me.

Kalebear, when you say that, you make me think of the past few months and I can't even remember one thing they did to help build up. Especially since the war with New York, they were just sitting there lurking in the shadows as hard working mobsters from Old City District and Bella Vista worked hard to make the city stronger and help the business flourish within. I am sorry but I don't remember any kind of help they provided.

Archy takes one last buff off his cigarette before putting it off at the post, then throws it away.

Anyway, I won't go into details about what their reasoning might be because that's something I wouldn't know, but I still hated going to so many funerals of such a number of people I grew up with because of someone's illusions or someone else whispering in their ears or feeding the little flame. Such a shame.

Bigby of course he would fight for the guy his loyalty lies with, just like any other mobster would. Just because you don't know about loyalty, doesn't mean no one else does.

Archy feeling that he said his piece turns around and moves back to lean on the post.

Kalebear smiles politely over at Archy.

I am sure you would know better than I as to what they did or didn't do in Philly. I was just speculating that it seemed sort of backwards to fire into the city that you were apart of.

I don't know the ins or outs of who did what or where there. I am Chicago born and bred but if a leader, a Godfather at that, remains alive it is assumed that they have earned it or were doing something of value to those they worked alongside. Although I suppose in many cases that perhaps maybe it isn't true. That is neither here or there to this topic though.

It just doesn't make sense as making a bang when it's in the city you reside in.

 I would say it is fairly common for even those least involved to protect themselves during times of conflict, Daemon. And yesterday should have been no different for Godfather Louis-Man, regardless of his intentions. As Sovereign said, in a conflict like the one yesterday, anyone can really be a target and it typically does seem to be those least involved who pay the price for thinking they are safe.

 Everyone assumed that the war was between Whatsername's district and her allies. How about city of Las Vegas then? The upper structures of the city were seen shooting members of the Durden crew while the war was in progress and none of them were harmed.

 I just wanted to touch on these two points specifically and I'll be on my way...

Olyvar, that is a very fair point but it's definitely one of those "it won't happen to me" situations and hindsight is a cruel bitch. I know some of you gathered here today may not be old enough to remember the likes of AK and Joeseph Ligambi. A Godfather and a Crew Leader. All were shot in a war that had nothing to do with Las Vegas. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and none had taken pro shots because the fight had nothing to do with them. I'm not sure if it would be the best choice to take pro shots right away, as that can be a red flag and cause people who may not have been looking at you.. to now take notice. But definitely watch your surroundings and take notice, be ready for anything. I think it's fair to say though, if a war breaks out and those you call allies is involved it's pretty safe to say that you might want to think about it.. as it's no surprise that if somebody goes to war, their allies will quickly be there to back them up. So people are going to take that into consideration and possibly go for allies as well.

Daemon, first off.. my condolences on the loss of Godfather Louis-Man. Although, we didn't talk often when we did I was always impressed by what he had to say and how he carried himself. The world lost a good man, no doubt about that. 

I must say though, that you are acting on the assumption that Las Vegas hadn't taken precautions. At first we did think that it was an inner city scuffle but of course that quickly changed when we saw people outside of those walls start falling. I can not comment on why Las Vegas didn't suffer losses because I'm not exactly sure. Maybe it was because the attackers didn't come for us because they had a specific agenda or maybe they did try and found the would be victims to be pro'd? I don't know because I am not them. I'm not exactly sure what my members may or may not have been shooting has to do with your point. It wouldn't be valid as a rebuttal for what Olyvar has said, arguing that we weren't involved so we weren't shot at so why would people not involved take pros. Because if you listen to the words floating through the grapevine you will hear that Las Vegas was involved, however "minuscule and useless" our involvement might have been.

I would have to agree with Sovereign, as the war that took place seems to be a suicide mission. And for a suicide bomber, it's all about numbers of casualties they can bring down with them before they die. It's cold but it's that's the way everyone is, greedy angry and the funniest of all, we all scared to die alone.