Sometimes in this world we are faced with extremely tough decisions. Last night my father had to make one that ultimately ended up with his unfortunate demise by his own hands. Was he right to make that decision? I'm still stood here wondering that myself, but he had pre-warned both his bosses from day 1 that if certain things transpired within the city, then he would fall on his own sword.

Let me enlighten you as to the choice he felt he had to make...

Last night war erupted (very disorganised I must say), PH/NY began taking out The Loop targets after having some 'pre-planning problems'. These problems led to a few of The Loop being left alive after the 'first wave' as they had taken pro shots in anticipation. On the war went and Caffrey and Daenerys were pretty much the last 2. Caffrey got a shot in and died shortly after.

Daenerys was last man standing and this is where things started to go pear-shaped in the morals of some of the New York/Philadelphia power structure and my father knew a decision was going to have to be made. Daenerys was the descendant of former/current (I have no clue which) 303 member, Ace. Daenerys shot RTwoDoubleDTwo and the call was made to 'eliminate all associates of 303' with the reasoning being that they had 'bloodlined' R2's lineage 3 times now.

Looking back at the ensuing argument Daenerys made that he was just picking out 'big targets' seems genuinely legitimate to me. R2 was originally from Philly, so therefore you would expect he was helping in the war against The Loop and he was a bold... good target if you're faced with that situation. Then you have the fact that Daenerys also shot my father's good friend RoryRourke, who was a LHM to a Godmother and again... if you're faced with it, a very good target to sink.

Philly and New York refused to accept Daenerys' reasoning basing their assumptions purely on the R2 shot.

This is where my father had his decision to make. He had promised a former 303 member (Azingy) that if he was punished without good reason, my father would go out with him in protest. Azingy had been asleep for the entire war with The Loop and had shown no previous signs of helping out his bloodline's former friends, he was a model member of the district who had been very generous with gifts and such.  Yet my father was told "he is to be shot". Not only that, but various other mobsters are to be gunned down without their leaders backing.

My father's own district Bella Vista took quite a bashing, as well as RoryRourke being shot, a good core of mobsters were tore out seemingly on the whims of a few at the top (Roman/Prem era anyone?). He came to the decision after looking around at the dead bodies of some of his most dearest friends. It seemed to him like the person he was serving, BlackBetty had just rolled over and let this happen. That she didn't put her foot down and stand up for her members who had given her SO much.

You could call my pappy sour I guess, but in the short time he was alive, he had built himself a gun very quickly and could've gone out doing some damage to those whom he deemed had done wrong. He chose to retire instead. He had also turned down auth because he was not allowed his RH of choice, Azingy but continued to pour cash into his district. So I think the 'sour grapes' option is out the window as he had ample opportunity to be spiteful.

So, mobsters I ask... should he have stood his ground and fallen on his sword or towed the line here given the information I have laid out?

You have always had your noble reasons to do such things ZeQ, not many would have had the balls to take such a tough decision to give up on everything for their beliefs and principles. I wish your father didn't have to make this decision to leave us though, but there's no way one can change the past.

Archytakes his hat off to the young man

GRHS your father was a great man, that I always had respect for. However I hope this isn't the last of your bloodline around our streets.

Before I get into the specifics you're talking about, unless I grant them permission, anyone in my organisation who has made their bones and retires is betraying the family. I don't need or want fair-weather members, because that isn't what family means. Family is lasting commitment, sometimes requiring sacrifice but never done only while the going is easy. 

That makes the answer to your question obvious; Father_TeQ betrayed his family because he was a made guy who retired (I assume and will stand corrected if the alternative is true) without permission from his boss. 

Now, let's put a little more meat on the bone and see if anything you've said changes that for me and consider last night. PeterBurke and the majority of NealCaffrey's family were gunned down. Neal himself died shortly thereafter leaving only Daenerys, and his army of pro wackers just waiting to drop out of every family across the country, left alive. With the aforementioned army having been a figment of Daenerys' imagination, she argues that she chose a target that would have the maximum amount of impact prior to dying and decided to hit RTwoDoubleDTwo, a Boss out in Las Vegas.

Assuming that is true, do you not think, with the amount of heat already on Daenerys and other 303 affiliates, shooting someone like that, who you have killed twice already with dubious motivation, even if they actually are the juiciest target, is an unbelievably idiotic thing to do? It makes zero impact on the outcome of the conflict, immediately brings into question your motivation and with the ambiguity that now exists surrounding that decision, you've needlessly jeopardized the lives of all of your friends/former associates. Why put yourself and your friends in that position? 

In the wake of this, at best, irresponsible decision by Daenerys, other 303 affiliates were gunned down as you have mentioned. In view of this response, you claim Father_TeQ had a decision to make, namely whether or not to keep a promise to a 303 affiliated Gangster and 'go out with him in protest'. As second in command to the Godfather of Bella Vista, I would seriously question why Father_TeQ felt his promise to a 303 affiliated Gangster was superior to his sworn oaths to the family in Bella Vista; perhaps you can enlighten me? And, what about all the other family members he had a duty to protect whom he was now leaving in the lurch? He abandoned them to be watched over by someone he deemed to have "just rolled over" and let them die. Where's the honour, loyalty or respect in doing that? Who is it helping?

To me then, the answer hasn't changed; if anything, it is more clear cut. Father_TeQ had a duty to his family to protect them and instead he turned his back on them over a promise to a 303 affiliated Gangster and went out with him in protest. A shame. 

The heart of Bella Vista was ripped out last night, Barry... do you fail to see the amount of Bella Vista members in the obituaries? or am I going senile at a very young age? 

There was no district left to serve in my eyes as everything my father and BlackBetty had promised Azingy's bloodline and every other one under us was broken.

Those sworn oaths you say my father took... he broke those when he couldn't stop members of his family dying 'by association' at the hands of your Godfather and his own. 

As previously stated, my pappy had told BlackBetty from day 1 that if Azingy died due to being associated with some shit-tin group some time ago, then he would go too. So whether BlackBetty 'approved' my father death or not is irrelevant as before she sent the invite to Azingy she knew where my father stood on the matter and what would happen should last nights situation arise.

A spin doctor by trade, Malcolm was well versed in the art of politics. He listened to the words of both ZeQ and Barry before deciding to contribute himself.

"Gentlemen, I hope you don't mind me, as an outside opinion getting involved in this debate today. I do find the subject matter to be of significant interest. First, let it be known that I share certain certain aspects with both of you. I would, however, like to offer my own distinct opinion to both of you."

"The first thing to note is that historic friendships between lines are indelible. It is utterly impossible for a mobster whose ancestor was part of a particular group to remove that association. It seems to me that the ultimate fate of such groups is irrelevant, and there is ultimately no way back for those involved; whether they continue to identify with such a group or not."

"The way I, and my most prominent ancestor choose and chose to deal with such issues, is to take each individual at face value. As long as they worked hard for their leaders, whether it be my grandfather or any other, they would have my support. I enjoy reading the journals of my Grandfather, to understand how he lived his life. He had reason to believe that individuals who had done nothing to wrong him, or to give him reason to not trust him, were attracting him heat for little reason other than their ancestors' past associations. This led to my Grandfather's position ultimately becoming untenable; not through his own wrongdoing, but simply because he treated his crew members how he himself would wish to be treated."

"This leads me to the events of the last twenty four hours, and it is here that I share a lot of sympathy with ZeQ's father. My main question here is, how can someone who has demonstrated their loyalty and worth to their upper structure, their leader and their Godfather, be implicated in events involving mobsters from completely different cities? Events they themselves have nothing to do with, simply because a member of their line had previous dealings with an ancestor of those involved?"

"I have absolutely no association with the group in question. However, it becomes clear to me that there is ultimately no way back for members of the said group, whatever their future kin may do, whoever their loyalties may lie with. It seems to me to be inherently illogical."

Vincent steps on on the streets after all the shit that has happend.

So you say 303 affiliated Gangster what about that 303 affiliated DON thats still running around laughing about this still walking in TeamSpeak Street? 303 was killed because one man took 1 shot and killed 1 man you killed 10+ people because he killed RTwo no i dont see how that is can someone please explain to me how one mans actions with half the game wageing war on them you dont give a fuck if there involved or not u shoot to kill anyone aslong as you take afew with ya thats all that matters.

Vincent Steps back Good day fellas 

I don't have any sympathy for ZeQ's father.  The man was a coward.  His day one statement should have raised a red flag from the start.  I question his loyalty and I hope that you don't carry the same ultimatum.

Rane takes a puff of his cigar.

Barry has already voiced many of my opinions on the topic so I'll keep it short.   I think the man's actions speak for themselves.  To put bluntly, he wasn't fit to be a GF's RHM.  Don't get me wrong.  He did some great things for Bella Vista.  However, his feelings clouded his judgment and that's bad news when you're put in a position to lead. 

ZeQ, BlackBetty didn't just roll over and let this happen.  She's a Godfather and if you think she didn't voice her opinion to defend her members, then you're wrong.  Honestly, I'm still new to the 303 shenanigans but I could give two fucks.  Regardless of the situation,  your father turned his back on the district that he had given "SO much" to when it needed his support.  You're correct.  I've seen the obituaries and we lost some great people but Bella Vista doesn't need more mourning.  Instead of stepping up to the plate, your father was selfish and added yet another one of our members to that list.  I hope that your father rests in peace.

The heart of Bella Vista was not ripped out.  We're still standing strong.  It might have taken a beating but it will heal in time.

To me it sounds like ZeQ's father made his terms very clear to Godmother BlackBetty, and I commend him for holding true to his principles and promises. There is honor in such ways. To those saying he betrayed his district, didn't his district betray him first? 

He made a promise to a friend, and he kept that promise.

Rane, stop deluding yourself fella. She rolled over and let them die... they did nothing wrong and they're dead. What other evidence could you possibly need?

You're right Rane, my father should never have been given the RHM position and never asked for it. He was there by necessity because people like yourself were so half-arsed towards the job that Betty couldn't give it to anyone else, go ask your fabled leader yourself.

There is no heart in Bella Vista now, just a mechanical 'yes  sir, no sir, three bags full sir'. It's cowardice to stand up for your own morals and principles by taking your own life? That's just... funny. Personally, I think it's more cowardice to just sit by and watch events unfold, turning a blind eye as to whether they are right or wrong because you're afraid you might lose out yourself.

You are a blind sheep, Rane. When you have an opinion that is yours, please do come share it with us fella.

While I can understand why people call it bloodlining towards RTwoDoubleDTwo I can also see during a war that you hit any target you can get, especially if you are going to die anyways. It seems to be a common practice during wars regardless of who you know or what others think of you.

So I can understand all of that. Is it a shame to see so many good people in caskets over it? Of course. I do hope that their next of kins return.

As far as dying for your beliefs, that takes strength especially when the backlash is going to be bad.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter though. I would like to see all the "bloodlining" stuff come to an end and I hold out hope that it will on both sides.

I'm a blind sheep?  Well that's ironic since you're incapable of seeing the big picture, fella.  Leaders make tough decisions.  It comes with the job.  This was much more involved than "they did nothing and they're dead."   You can spin it however you like but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. 

At the time, your father was much more involved than I was so I couldn't agree more.  At the end of the day though, it didn't work out.  To be frank, I'm not sure if most people ask for the RHM position.  I certainly did not but I think the suit fits well. 

Rane straightens his tie.

As an outsider, I'm curious how you know so much about the current state of Bella Vista.  You're just a Thug from LA and your father didn't stick around long enough to know. RIP.  Standing up for your own morals and principles is one thing.  But doing so by taking your own life? That seems a bit counter-intuitive.  There are other ways.

You have your opinions and I have mine.  Like you, I wanted to share my piece but I don't see this conversation going anywhere.  Best of luck, TeQ.

Flicking his cigar, Rane steps down from the soapbox and walks down the street.
 

I can't comment on your senility, ZeQ, but I can see tell you that there are currently 65 people in Bella Vista, who this morning, Father_TeQ turned his back upon. What about those people? Are you actually telling me all 65 of them are worthless "yes men", but the 6 who died made the district amazing and now without them there is nothing left? Get real. This wasn't martyrdom, this was betrayal and a dereliction of duty for a selfish, indefensible reason. This was a man who had made his bones, said his vows and placed himself between his family, his Godfather no less, for an associate.

Malcolm, Cin, the members of the group in question only have themselves to blame for the situation they currently find themselves in. As I said earlier, Daenerys could have shot anyone really, but he chose RTwoDoubleDTwo. Why? Maybe he was the juiciest target available, maybe he wasn't. All that matters is how that shot would be perceived and at best, the motivation is questionable. If nothing else, it gave the Godfathers all the justification they needed to take the actions they did. Why give them the ammunition? Why place yourself and your friends/former friends in that position needlessly? I don't understand how you can make that decision and then be surprised with what came next. And whilst I don't believe things are untenable, they need to reconsider their strategies and stop doing stupid things like that if they want to make progress.  

I fail to understand how someone shooting a leader in a war is justification for shooting their friends. Did their friends actually join in the war on Chicago's side? No. I really struggle to understand how certain people died because of his 'bloodlining', which isn't really bloodlining at all.  He was a damned leader. Who, presented with such a situation, wouldn't take the 'juicy' target? How in earth would they have known that this would lead to a frenzied killing of their (former) friends/associates across the country?

But then again, maybe I am talking too much shit here, I am just a thug after all. My recently-deceased ancestor strongly believed in the concept of 'might makes right' and although I feel less drawn towards that concept I guess this is a perfect example of it. 

Barry, I do believe someone did ask in that coffee shop conversation how they could improve things but no one gave much of an answer. So I am left to wonder if those former friends in that group could really escape the stigma of being formerly apart of that group.

Don't get me wrong I see where you and the other leaders are coming from, I just have to wonder if there is a way to not get hit with that stigma just because you made the mistake of joining a group you no longer wish to be associated with.

I am certainly not one for cliques or any group mentality of the sort. In fact I think they are entirely wrong. Grieve one and you grieve them all is a bit extreme. Just like I think those individuals should be based on their current standings, not on their past ones. Does that make me a bit naive? Perhaps.

it gave the Godfathers all the justification they needed to take the actions they did.

Im actually amazed if you really believe this Mr Barry. First off the Godfathers don't need justification for their actions, they are in charge and do as they wish but you bought up justification so i'll answer that.

Is it just to shoot a member of your own family for nothing done in this life but a term of loyalty, earning and respect for you?

As I have said we are not debating the actions that have been done, but YOU bought up jutifiability so I would like to hear your honest true answer to it. 

I fail to understand how someone shooting a leader in a war is justification for shooting their friends.

I to fail to understand this why one man shooting a Crewleader in time of a war where half the game are trying to kill you.

my first action would be find the first crewleader rh in my city pop ur dead and take a pro so i dont see how him killing Rtwo had anything to do with the killing of his "mate's" 

Barry, the heart is still ripped out. Those other 5 were among the most active in the district and gave back to it a hundred times over. A lot of what is left... yes, they are worthless yes men, or just so inactive that they don't even have an opinion. Go scroll through the members yourself and you'll see they're less active than even you. The slim pickings that are left over there that do give a rats ass about the district have already contacted me to thank my father for his contribution to the district while he was there, why you think you're in a better position to judge my fathers action and decisions, I have no idea.

An associate? All those who died were made members of the district, or did that fact just slip by you?

You're in your position because your bloodline is a 'safe bet', Barry. It always has been, that is why your blood is prone to bold suits or hand positions. It has done and will always continue to come out here thinking they have some sort of righteous opinion on a subject, when really they are just towing the line of whoever is above them to gain some sort of approval from their peers. 

Barry,

I would also add to what Cin has said, and put it out there that certain ancestors of members of the group in question, such as the one this discussion primarily revolves around but others too, have demonstrated a clear willingness, to me anyway, to move beyond what their kin had done in the past and to distance themselves from their clique. It seems to me that others cannot do the same, and are in danger of becoming guilty of the same crimes as those they are apparently punishing.

I understand that this is the mafia, and as such our notions of right and wrong are not what you would hold a civilian to. However, ever since the day my line stepped off the boat and joined this life, my ancestors were taught that your first loyalty was to your family, your district, your Godfather, and that in turn for your loyalty and effort they would protect you, so long as you committed no kind of indiscretion. Forgive me for going back to basics, but I struggle to see how punishing a distant relative for the associations of their great grandfather solves anything. Perhaps this position makes me naïve. But I consider it important that each individual is allowed the chance to prove themselves, irrespective of their history. While I of course do not wish to entangle myself in the affairs of another city, as it is entirely none of my business, I do feel such chances are not being given to certain individuals.

Barry shakes his head.

First of all, I said it gave the Godfathers all the justification they needed, not that it would be justification for you or anyone else. I thought it was patently clear from the messages given already by them that their tolerance for this sort of shit was low. Secondly, are you honestly telling me Daenerys thought everything would be dandy for all her current/former chums after shooting RTwoDoubleDTwo? Really?

I wasn't in the coffee shop for very long, Cin, so I can't comment on what was said. If you or Malcolm are asking what they can do to make progress here that to me is pretty simple; join the right family, put that family before everything else and prove themselves. It will be a long road, but it can be done by building up trust and demonstrating that their ties are first and foremost to their family. If they've joined the right family, they won't have any more problems. I've said before, MafiaReturns is full of second-chance success stories because we believe and advocate redemption. We always have as people in this conversation can attest to from their own family tree; myself included.

ZeQ, you asked a question which I'm answering. If you don't want Father_TeQ's actions questioned, don't bring a discussion out here focused entirely upon them. I didn't bring this shit out here, you did. If everyone worth a damn already agrees with you, why are you out here pitching to the rest of us?

As to your thoughts on my own position and how I've achieved it, you're welcome to think as you please. I'm a Moustache Pete and I've never pretended to be anything other than that. I speak my mind and I always have. I believe in the fundamentals of Cosa Nostra, understand them and speak from that position of knowledge when I open my mouth. Things like loyalty are important to me. If that means I'm towing the line in your opinion because I don't turn my back on my entire district in the latest in a long line of fits of pique, dressed up in a semantically pleasing idiom about nobly falling on my sword, then I'm absolutely fine with that too as your opinion isn't one I care all that much about.