https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/573750#9834698

That's the thread for roleplaying.

This is the thread so you guys can discuss things OOCly.

Please don't just post in it like you are having a general discussion. It was a story roleplay, so please keep replies in that thread in the context of the story we have created.

Either continue on in that thread in a story format roleplaying your character at the scene that was created, or discuss things openly here.

Cheers!

This is part of my response to Ivan, which should clarify a few things. It really isn't necessary, yet I'd like to so assumptions and accusations about them being 'active' are thrown out the window. They were IA's or suspected in helped the rogue that recently killed three members.

Hey mate, appreciate the feedback in the thread.

Answering here because it was a story, and not a discussion type situation.

We gave those plucked ample opportunity to advise us they weren't IA.

They had been declared IA already, and a MM was sent out to all those taken out asking for a response to let us know they were still kicking about and active.

Some of those killed actually read the MM, and just didn't reply. Others were long IA, and had to be removed at some point or other.

All families get rid of IA's, just at a slower pace and scatter them around so they don't get perceived in a certain light.

The actions done were part of us moving to DT, and also part of a RP to add a certain dynamic to it and put a stamp on things.

It's something new that I haven't seen others do before since my time here, because as you said it has us perceived in a certain light yet Families keep IA's sheltered for long periods of time and drop them at a slower pace. We just sped up the process with intention.

Consider all those killed would've been killed in the coming fortnight anyway, we just did something different to create the reaction you actually gave :)

So, part of it was political and I guess controversial in how we executed it yet that was intended for that reason. We could've dragged it all out, yet due to our move and our upcoming roleplay series it's all with a purpose, as you will read once we roll out the series.

On top of that we've had a rogue member and a pro'er from the same timeframe as those killed, and others that were potential pro'er suspects. Once we took all their guns, the guy seemed to no longer have any pro's and got tapped. Another motive for our actions, especially given some users tapped got our IA MM and were also miraculously active during the rogue spree, yet no responsive to said IA MM.
 
Onto the Omerta part it was a story in the streets. If we all roleplayed here then some might consider themselves having witnessed it, and others might consider it something they missed altogether based on the character they are roleplaying. Being a roleplayed post, we had the intent to rock in and out like they did in the 20's, which was much less 'silent' and secret than today (although, in other respects omerta has gone out the window in another way today with snitching as a main way for people to avoid jail time).

So in a sense we didn't exactly go around telling people what we did. We posted a roleplay that had our characters act out what we intended to do anyway. Gather a group of people that traditional would be offed over a period of time and do it all at once for the story and RP element. We put roleplayed actions to IA kills so we could share the story with ya'll, whereas most just kill their IA's and post 'W/S not required'. I hate that shit as it's for one OOC and two given our intentions to put the kills together specifically for a RP, this is what we chose to do instead.

Many times this has actually happened in real life, including back in the 20's when people were gunned down in short spans of time due to wars and they openly killed members of the mafia and left their bodies for the public to witness. Everything was done in character.

So question were these new players or people who knew what they were doing?

I myself do not reply to alot of mails i get. In my opinion and prolly a good percentage of this thing of ours would say you handled and did this way wrong. Killing four members then making a mockery of them in the streets is plain fu**ing rude.

Now i know ima hear from you "oh they were IA or they were active during a rogue." This could and possibly will come back to bite you in the ass. No not a threat from me.

Weather you have a series of RPs or not coming up. Maybe you should learn honor and dignity.

How exactly did we mock them in the streets?

It was a roleplay to coincide with our OOC actions. So tell me what actions we did, that were a mockery. This is the mafia. We did a stock standard Mafia hit.

People can say what they wish regarding how we handled it, yet the fact remains families kill off IA members all the time. Why does nobody else kick up such a stink about it? Because they are done sporadically.

Had we done one every couple of days, over a 10 day period, you wouldn't be responding in the way you have.

Since you want to make this public now after sending me a mail, lets do this shall we?

You're missing a part of the mail you sent me. I'll show the rest.

Now onto your reply. I understand you wanted to state what you did, and I'm happy with it, yet it didn't exactly fit into the RP. You could've called me from your office, or wrote me a letter, yet it seems you came to the scene and just started speaking openly like nothing. I value the response, yet do you not think it could've been done to fir the already running storyline? It seems you started the reply in character, then jumped OOC to voice what you wanted to which is why I'm sending the MM.

You quoted a portion of a story, not what I said or spoke of. It was a narrative, so addressing that in the way that you did actually took your post after that OOC.

Not a massive thing, yet just some feedback. Take it or leave it. MR is very lax on RP, yet for me to reply directly to you in the post I can't do it in the way you went about it.

When I see something in the streets that is so controversial, I'm going to respond however I feel like. I really don't care that it broke character or not. I guess I could have said I read your mind. Ivan the mind reader, that has a nice ring to it actually. You posted in the streets an ill role play, I responded.  I shouldn't have to make another thread or anything to call you out. And I'm not going to pull someone aside or into my office over something in the streets. I'm going to do it just there.

The way you portrayed these IAs to me was really my concern. My first read over the post, it made it sound like these guys didn't do anything wrong but they were to die regardless. You guys didn't have the time to teach nor train anyone. You didn't care about them or anything. These associates did no wrong other than not meeting up your standards. And as a leader its your job to get them there or attempt to. Also, after looking at their Last Active times, they were no where near the sleeping IA as you claim. Or is that the standard in DT now? 4-5 days of inactivity and you're dead? 

You're trying to argue that other families keep these IAs while you're just speeding up the process. No. You came to the streets claiming that you executed these people and such. Thats never done before because of my reasons given in my response. So to take your own words, "take it or leave it".

You mocked their death in the streets. The reason i am responding in the way that i am is because they seemed new. 

Besides you making a thread or RP out of it makes you a target for criticism. You come out and plaster that you killed someone all over the streets. 

You ask how is it a mockery? Well you kill them then you make a story about killing them. If my CL killed me and i come back and read in the streets that he did it just so he could make a RP out of it. Honestly id leave this game and never come back. 

The one guy was 10 days old and active the day before you killed him. Ive left the game before abruptly and didnt say anything. If i came back and found out i was dead after 3 to 7 days IA without a real plausible cause like needing room. Id be pissed and again never come back. 

Your basically saying to any new person who may wanna join you that if they do not live up to your standard they are gonna die.

I didn't add that here because that was a personal thing directed at you, so I felt it wouldn't be appropriate to call you out in that way publicly. Just because it's controversial, doesn't mean you 'can respond however I fell like'. It's a roleplay post mate, so breaking character on purpose just to make a point regardless of the post itself is still going OOC and shouldn't really be done.

Having said that though, you were still in character, it was just out of character given the type of thread it was. If you wanted to call 'us' out then yes, I believe you should've done it in a different way like creating a simple thread here like I have for this purpose so then a discussion can actually take place.

We did attempt to get them active and do more but they ignored our requests which is why this happened. We don't just off people for no reason, and it was in line with what we deem to be inactive which is more than just how many days someone has logged in last. A lack of overall effort in that period coupled with ignoring MM's from upper structure to us means they are inactive.

They may have logged in here and there, yet no effort to kickup, train their guns and interact with the family has lead them to an early grave. We definitely have different standards than other families, yet it's very clear what we expect when we recruit members. We harp on the fact we need activity and clearly explain what that means. They understood our expectations before they joined.

We're not here to run everybody else's idea of a family. We do many things different than most families and given the way we operate activity is paramount.

I can appreciate this may not be for some, yet nobody's forced to join and we feel our expectations are reasonable.

@Woopdpond this is a roleplay game mate. We didn't disgrace anybody in how we killed them, we just put a generic roleplay story to it. Show me exactly how we disrespected or mocked them in the story and you may have a case, otherwise saying just because we included the killing itself in a roleplay in a roleplay game is mockery doesn't make sense.

mockery

noun

teasing and contemptuous language or behaviour directed at a particular person or thing.

an absurd misrepresentation or imitation of something.

ludicrously futile action.

so I felt it wouldn't be appropriate to call you out in that way publicly. 

How the hell did you not call me out in public already with this post? You probably can't see that because I know you can't see the mockery in your RP thread. And I'll say it again. I don't care if I broke character in your RP thread. You mocked people in the following ways:

Chamers opened his mouth and began to beg, but the time for platitudes was over. The decision was done. He fired once and the back of Chamer's skull exploded backwards and he slumped foward onto the table, blood pooling on the table, mixed with spilled coffee, and began dripping onto the floor.  Locarno reached into Chamer's jacket and pulled out his pistol, sticking it in his waist belt, then turned and made his way back towards the door and their vehicles.

Scarfo burst in holding a Tommy Gun. He didn't just want to kill his intended target, but wanted to send a clear message. He honed in on Sweeny and unleashed the clip to devastating effect. The body of the unfortunate wannabe gangster jerked about as bullets annihilated it and continued well after the fact. Sweeny was on the receiving end of an outburst of frustration at some recent Family rank shuffling, and his soulless body now slid down off the chair at the counter as bullets continued to fire.

Scarfo continued walking forward until the clip had emptied. He let his agn wielding arm dangle at his side as smoke poured from the end of the now silent submachine gun. Scarfo stood over the victim, reached toward the counter and swiped at a still warm cup of coffee. He drank the remainder as he took a good look at his handy work, then placed the cup back down on the bench before heading out the front door and into one of the waiting vehicles. 

Tony Capazzo slowly walked into the establishment. He was very far from his normal looking self. There were no fancy suits and fedoras. He shirt was wrinkled, he clearly hadn't shaved as the stubble on his face indicated. He slowly and methodically may his way in and looked up to TheGod. TheGod opened his mouth but Tony quickly interrupted that.

"Shhhhhh."

Tony put his finger to his mouth. It was a very hard day for him, the most trying in his young career as a Don. A lot of bloodshed and a lot of people going back to the old country. 

I don't get how you are not understanding that this is mocking someone you just killed. How is this different than disrespecting someone at their own funeral? 

Chalmers begged for his life?

Body of the unfortunate gangster jerked as bullets... You enjoyed your handy work.

Putting a finger over someone's mouth before killing them. 

All of this could have been unseen for others but you wanted to make this public. For whatever reason, I don't know.

The post wasn't just for you mate, it was for anyone wanting to discuss the roleplayed thread without doing it in the roleplay itself. Yes, I can see you don't care you broke character lol.

How are these actions we wrote about mockery? They are realistic given the situation. Chamers pleading for his life isn't unrealistic. A body jerks as bullets from a tommy gun are pumped into him, just describing the scene. The finger was to his own mouth.

They are just describing the scene mate and as realistic as possible. We're not pissing on people or ashing cigarettes out on them. We're not in funerals spiling paint on coffins. We didn't disrespect any dead people, we just described a scene as it would be given five mobsters shooting up a coffee shop full of people.

I didn't say anything about it not being unrealistic. A body does jerk, people beg their lives. Sure. But why the hell would you even write a RP thread on this? You're literally going out of your way to RP the way you killed someone. This isn't normal nor has anyone ever done this. Why? Because its mockery.

When someone dies in the game, in character or whatever, why should anything but the reason of why we killed them be posted in the streets for others to see? 

You do not see leaders attending the streets after a massive take down stating, "Oh PabloEscobar whine like a bitch when I shot him. But the reason why we killed him cause he was a threat". They don't mock anything when it comes to death. No one does, nor has it ever been done.

I remember a time when someone role played burning a body in the streets. Now I'm not saying you went as far as doing that, but you certainly mocked the way these individuals died. And it was for your own enjoyment. 

You're right. We didn't burn their bodies, nor did we say they whined like a bitch. You're also right in saying this isn't normal yet incorrect in saying 'nor has anyone ever done this'. People have roleplayed before regarding the death of individuals to express the story behind it, so it's not new, yet yes it's not exactly common place. Not because it's mockery, but because people choose to play the game their own way.

Nothing has to be said regarding anything, period. The reason people post what they do is because they choose to. We chose to post this roleplay to match our OOC actions, because we simply wanted to do something different. Not because we wanted to 'mock' anyone, but because we enjoy roeplaying. Some people on here like to post discussion threads and some people like to post story threads. We chose to do a story around it, rather than a straight 'This is what happened and the reasons' thread.

No, it wasn't for our own enjoyment. It was to inform what was done in a story like manner, because we choose to roleplay the game this way. We did a whole serious on a Irish Mob war that spanned our whole stay in South Philly, so it's just how we choose to play the game. I did enjoy writing it, but not for any kind of mockery. That's not my personality, and not the reason I roleplay.

If it truly was mocking and disrespectful and broke some kind of code then I take responsibility for it and will take the punishment that comes with it. I just personally don't see it in the way you are saying it is, nor was that ever our intentions, at all.

Nomad, only time will tell if this is our downfall. I doubt it, yet anything can happen. Appreciate the feedback.

Let me just comment here.

Firstly, we had a rogue come out from the family yesterday. Someone whose been around activity has been low, he's not contributed to meet my standards, his activity has not met my standards nothing. Keep in mind I was always MMing this guy, as I thought he was new as he claimed, offering training. This guy rogued. Okay

Tony Christie was another person that barely came online, never spoke with anyone, never replied to MMs, didn't earn..did nothing but waste space. He turned out to pro a rogue. Okay.

The people whom were killed WERE inactive however when you look at their active date you'll see yesterday's date. Surprisingly some of these people  'Lydia and David_Chamers' randomly/coincidently showed up out of the woodwork.

Sweeney and TheGod had signed up and yet again contributed nothing, no activity (despite me sending countless MM's to THEGOD and I will explain in a little bit as to why) they were both MM'd as well and never replied. There activity was non existent....coming on once every 6 or 7 days for 1 minute doesn't qualify as "being active" imo, this is just my opinion as I can't speak for others how they view it. Once again they didn't fit my standards.

Cammorra....THIS...THIS person is the GIRLFRIEND of one of my members....a REAL LIFE girlfriend of one of my members....but again, she hasn't spoken, responded to MMs, has not contibuted, done nothing....once again although she is the REAL LIFE GIRLFRIEND of one of my members I explained to him she isn't fitting our standards, he UNDERSTOOD because he understands how things are ran. She was no exception to the standards.

Now I believe what ruffled feathers was two things. 1 Cause they were all done at once  2. Cause we roleplayed about it.

Please understand yesterday I had a rogue in my family and someone proing a rogue, 2 quiet guys who did nothing. #2 I had 2 members who are RL friends retire because one has been having a ongoing RL issue.

These members who died yesterday in our RP were already set for death. The only thing I did was rather then doing 2 a day for the next 3 days we did all at once.

Why was it done in RP style? As you've all noticed we like the RPing aspect of the game so I felt it'd be better then a "no w/s needed" in the funeral. I am sorry that some felt we mocked the dead, that just wasn't the case but I do appreciate your opinons. That was never the intent, it was just a way of EXPLAINING the situation as to why these people were killed. 

If someone goes back and reads the RP, the first RP states the reason why this was being done.

There are 2 other things I would like to address.

 You guys didn't have the time to teach nor train anyone. You didn't care about them or anything. These associates did no wrong other than not meeting up your standards. And as a leader its your job to get them there or attempt to. 

Ivan.....with all due respect sir. You are 150% wrong here. You can ask EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of the ENTIRE family and they will all tell you I personally spend hours and hours and hours and hours beyond all members trying to help them and train them. I don't care if they are new, a associate or whatever I take the time and train all of them and give all of them my attention and time. But please understand it's a two way street...I can only MM someone a few times and them not respond how many times should I continously MM them?

I mentioned TheGod earlier up above. He was brand new to the game when he signed up. He was eager to learn and I spent HOURS answering all his questions and explaining to him everything he needed to know. I did this on more then one occassion btw.

There is no one in my family who can say I don't offer the time for them OR who doesn't train anyone. I along with Scarfo and a few others DO take the time so you're comment up above is wayyyyyyy off sorry to say. 

Secondly...

Putting a finger over someone's mouth before killing them.

You said this was disrespecting or mocking or whatever. I think you read  it wrong in the RP....I meant that I put my finger over my mouth. Considering it was talking about Tony, me, then said  he put his finger over his mouth.  You know like when you put your index over your mouth and tell someone to 'shhhh'...yeah that....im not really sure if you read this wrong or you read it right but still felt it was a mockery....i have no idea but just wanted to clarify what I meant.

All and all I respect everyone's opinions and thanks for everyones insights. I just rather not keep dead weight in my family I can appreciate having them around for fun and just for whatever but I prefer not to, regardless if space is needed or not. Having a few extra members in my family who offered nothing, did nothing and didn't reach out to anyone and keeping them around just for fun or for idk what excuse really isn't what I am trying to do. I apologize for that. I really do but as much as I try I just can't bring myself to keep people on who aren't meeting the standards I have set. I am really sorry about this trait of mine, I know some might disagree with it but I just can't have people who aren't performing stay on just for fluff sake. Once again I apologize for not doing what might be the norm to some but they weren't performing and meeting standards. Sorry.

Few things.

When I see something in the streets that is so controversial, I'm going to respond however I feel like. I really don't care that it broke character or not.

This is the exact opposite way to react to something on the streets that is controversial. Just...what? Send a mail if your response is OOC. Have a chat in IRC. Why break character in the streets for the sake of it, because you feel like it? It ruins the feeling for everyone else, especially the people who have put effort into the thread and their characters. I don't understand this at all.

Second. Mockery? Mockery is Tony sticking a pool cue up Vito's ass because he found out about his extracurricular activities. It's not shooting someone with a tommy gun. And in what universe is it taboo to RP killing someone in a game that revolves around the exact thing? Personally, I'm struggling to find where the offense was found because I'm not of the opinion that creating a narrative is disrespectful. I used to RP dumping the bodies of my IA associates into the Gowanus Canal, or driving out to dump 'em in the meadowlands, back when I ran a crew in NY a long time ago, and I did so not to insult the people I killed but to offer something more meaningful than a whisper. 

Just one more thing as I just read the actual RP post on the streets

The activity date on these people's profiles are largely misleading.... if someone has been gone for 10 days, comes on for 5 minutes, then logs off for another 10 days and comes on for 5 mins then disappears for another 5 days then comes back for 2 minutes.....I don't consider this  acitivty to fit my standards

That was the case with these members, not necessarily the exact times listed above but basically, they've all been gone for a couple of days popped in for a minute then popped back out. Come back days later for a minute then leave. Again not really my idea of good activity or something I want, of course everyone is entitled to their opinion on this. Some consider this ok activity, some maybe consider it great activity. That too is fine but in my opinion its not something I consider standard in my views. So please don't let the activity date fool you as it has, ask about the history leading up to it.

Personally, I think it would great if more things were RP'd out like this. I once praised Batiatus for making something out of taking out an MIA and the killing of crew inactives  is another common event that usually passes by without notice. I found it an enjoyable read to be honest. 

Why has nobody done this before?

1. They weren't creative enough to do it
2. If they were, they couldn't be arsed to put the effort in
3. A combination of the above 

I'm slightly curious. If someone has a really busy week IRL this seems to say that they should not bother going to Detroit because they will just be dead the week they are busy. Am I getting this right? I mean it is easy to get busy and not have more than five minutes here and there sometimes.