I don't think this has been suggested before but, seeing as there are training ranges to help improve the shooting skill of someone with a poor gun, how about self defence classes to improve peoples defence, obviously this would have to be capped like the training ranges are to stop people from becoming bulletproof, but just something to help improve low defence?

Classes to teach you how to dodge bullets. The MOB uses guns not martial arts.

Who's to say some don't get up close and personal, though?

Unless it's a long range kill, there's always the chance for a hand to hand fight - guns being kicked or punched away, and the like.


I think it's a pretty good idea. Some details need to be ironed out, but I do like the concept.

I would have to agree, with something like this it would maybe even out everybody, so that not everybody is on pure D answers, like many people are, because they know that it is much harder to train D than it is to train their wack skills, as long as they are priced in the same reason, then I have no objection with it, but I'm not a coder of the game, so I have no idea of their opinion on this.

I actually really like this idea, and had never thought about the imbalance between the two. With wacking you train at the range and then start shooting.. with defence there are bodyguards and nothing else.

I think it would be a fantastic addition, and an effective way of taking a little more money out of the game.

Nice suggestion Dicko,

Afro.

I'm not fond of this idea, mainly because defense is already becoming one of the "problems" in the game. With the plethora of OWP individuals (and increasing), I remember a previous thread where it was discussed that some people's defenses might be too high, thus, creating a growing number of members that seem to live forever. The purpose of this game is not to live forever.

The BG system is already the defense counterpart of the range system. I don't see how defense should have another opportunity to increase, aren't bodyguards enough? With the addition of a feature such as this, we will see legacy members live longer and longer and the presence of new blood establishing will thin out indefinitely.

Ritzo I would imagine if brought into the game it would work very similarly to the training range for wacking. Those who start with strong defence would max it out quickly, whilst those with weak defence would spend a long time training.

You can hardly compare a bodyguard to training at the range. They cost 750k each minimum where the range is 50k, and bodyguards require constant upkeep.

"Classes to teach you how to dodge bullets. The MOB uses guns not martial arts."

So the mob only ever kills people with guns now do they? Wow!

And no not how to dodge bullets your just being silly, soldiers are trained how to react to effective enemy fire, close protection and bodyguards are also heavily trained in what to do when you get shot at, so training of this kind is not unrealistic...

Depends on the situation Dicko. If they are beating a guy to death because he didn't pay his extortion money then that's one thing, chances are if they are killing a mobster, either one of their own or a rival family then they will use a gun. After all you don't take a knife to a gun fight. On top of that most mobsters are given traditional deaths.

A straight up execution usually involves two shots to the head with a low calibre fire arm... not a karate chop to the throat and a knife thrust to the femeral artery...

'Look at me, I'm Remo - Unarmed and Dangerous... I can dodge bullets.'

There is already a way to train def... its called buying Body Guards. Sure its more expensive than the shooting range, but there are ways around that too, such as buying many BGs at thug, or getting a demotion to buy them cheaper. If you were to introduce defense training, you would have to introduce better weapons to be purchased to counteract the sudden imballance of all these bullet dodging mafioso that pop up.

Chris if you read the suggestion properly you would note a few things.

Firstly - the cap which means people cant just train and train forever. I actually suggested it be worked in the same way as the shooting range, where those with wack answers have to train more to hit that limit than people on defence (mentioned by Dicko in the original thread post).

Secondly - yes there are bg's. Not everybody can afford them. 750k + upkeep compared to 50k at the range? Seems a bit unbalanced to me. This could provide a way for those not fortunate as others to get their defence a bump higher without incurring major costs (I mentioned this in an earlier post).

Thirdly - Dicko never said they would be 'bullet dodgers', in fact he clearly states in a later post "And no not how to dodge bullets your just being silly, soldiers are trained how to react to effective enemy fire, close protection and bodyguards are also heavily trained in what to do when you get shot at, so training of this kind is not unrealistic...".


So you see, all the points you raised have already been answered before you posted.

Afro, there's a fundamental reason why the status quo system makes the cost of increasing defense significantly higher than the cost of ranges: the admins have given much thought to this and, essentially, the game's intent is to make it easier to kill and harder to survive. Reason being, dying is one of the fundamental necessities to this game and the imbalance ensures that we don't all become sitting Dons after a while.

Ranges promote the recycling nature of the game whereas defense serves the purpose of being more of a perk than anything: the prices are meant to discourage most people because think about it, how many people in the mafia can actually afford an entourage? Not many, from an RP perspective. The reason why an alternative method is not offered is because it simply would devalue the worth of a BG and contradict its difficulty to achieve: who would pay a fortune to get a bodyguard for fleeting defense when "self defense classes" give you cheaper and permanent defense?

Furthurmore, the reason why BG upkeep is so costly to maintain is because its intent is to discourage sleepers from stacking up and going into an impenetrable coma. The "self defense classes" suggestion has absolutely no way of deterring inactivity.

Even with our current system favoring the gun much more, we still have members living much longer than this game intended. As I recall, many years ago, living to 6 months was a feat that was rare and seemingly impossible. Today, we have members commonly passing the 6 month, 8 month mark merely because they kept a low profile--not because they actually had the prowess or respectability that is supposed to go hand in hand with being at the top of the 60-second list.

Think of it this way, if this suggestion were to actually be implemented and the opportunities to increase defense suddenly became tantamount to ranges, the game would be completely clogged: everyone would live forever because there would simply be less incentive to train your gun when you're simply training just to "catch up" with everyone's basic defense.

Actually afro, I had accounted for all that had been said in the previous posts. I had taken them into consideration before posting.

Firstly, the cap... ok so you have a guy who is on full defense answers who trains his defense for 10 or 15 goes, and then buys 50+ Bgs, this means all but the hardest hitters will be unable to ghit him, andby hardest I mean those with 200+ kills under their belts. I wasn't talking about training until you were completely unhittable. He can then go out and train up his gun so that he can take out pretty much anyone who is on anything but full defense answers with dodge training and BGs

Secondly, BGs. OK so not everyone can afford 750k for a BG, big whoop. BGs are a reward for those who work hard and earn money. People in SMs family at the rank of WG and lower have earned several million dollars, meaning that they could have afforded BGs. I myself as you can clearly see am listed as Protected, meaning I have 6 or less BGs at consig. Sure there are Goomba's out there with OWP and EWP but that is because either their Father/Mother left them well provioded for, or their former CL is rewardiong them for their loyalty, or they have rich friends who have provided for them. Why should lazy people be rewarded by allowing them to boost their defence cheaply?

Thirdly, training under fire. Well what can I say? People are trained how to react in a firefight, not how to react when assassinated. In MR we sneak up behind people and shoot them when they don't expect it, we don't run out clearly with a gun in hand and give them a chance to react. Currently if I shoot you one of 4 things will happen. 1) I hit you, and you die and are none the wiser. 2) I miss, allowing you to fire back or arrange someone else to fire back. 3) The cops or BGs intervene and I end up in jail, or have to dump my weapon, again allowing retalliation. 4) I miss badly and your superior reflexes allow you to return fire resulting in my death, without you having to shoot. No military in the world trains soldiers to dodge unanticipated attacks, which is what training your defense will allow. Training defense would symbolize preternatual reflexes, something more akin to the Matrix, superman, Remo, or similar movies where the heroes actually dodge bullets. Bodyguard training is similar, it allows BGs to react after the bullet has been fired, to shield their mark, not jump in front of it before it has been fired.

This training is designed to stop the flight part of the fight or flight response. Most people when faced with gunfire will duck and cover, and not react in kind, so again this kind of training would offer no benefit to someone who has been shot dead.

As this is a RPG, I will point out similar rules from another RPG - Star Wars the Saga edition. The BG prestige class allows someone to take a hit meant for another target under 2 conditions. 1) They have to be beside the target, and 2) they have to be aware of the shooter. IE if the shooter gets what is called a surprise attack in Star Wars, then the BG can't take the shot.

Whilst I admit that the idea itself has been well thought out and presented, it actually doesn't bare any resemblance to real life accept in a situation of a proper gunfight, somthing that MR as a game does not allow for. In fact, 9 out of 10 times when someone is killed on MR they are offline or inactive meaning that they have no chance of defending themselves or reacting.

So you see... my original points still stand anre where not in fact answered...

Perhaps that is because I didn't go into a full explanation of my points as I just have.

I agree with the points you have made, Chris.


One of the things I think this will do however is bring a little more balance to the game. With the rewards for starting on Defence there is no point to starting on wack answers. With the introduction of Self Defence classes (or whatever else you want to call it) it would bring back the choice.. you could either focus immediately on wacking, and not have to suffer with stupidly low defence, or immediately start with defence and slowly build your wack.


Ritzo, obviously I couldn't comment on the game's intent. However if making people's lives shorter is what they intended then (no offence intended to any admins etc) they haven't succeeded. You are right, people can't afford entourages of bodyguards, which is why they would invest what little money they had in learning ways to defend themselves, or learning how to watch their own backs more effectively etc etc. I would hardly call bodyguards 'fleeting' defence.. the fact you would call them something like that is laughable. Bodyguards are THE most effective and definitely not fleeting.. not unless they're constantly being fired upon of course. I believe if it was done in the correct manner that it would not contradict anything.. as with the current shooting range the benefit gained would be small. You seem to be under the impression that this training is going to replace bodyguards, which it isn't at all.


There would not be less incentive to train guns.. did people stop buying bodyguards or starting on defence answers when shooting ranges were brought in? No? Exactly. In fact I believe that the shooting range encourage MORE people to start on defence answers as there was an easy way to get up to same level as others. So surely the introduction of 'Self Defence Classes' would encourage people to start on wack answers slightly more? Therefore levelling the field on who picks which answers. In fact, it may even lead to more people choosing stealth or other type answers.

I'm pretty sure though that as wacking decreases the amount of shooting ranges you can do, having any bodyguards will stop you using the 'Self Defence Class'.

I for one am totally for a way to train your defense outside of having bodyguards. Everyone can improve the killing/fighting/survival skills. You learn in the military how to survive and are trained how to kill. Here you can train a gun but not yet able to train your defense. I think this will be implimented but it needs the fine details worked out.

Well, after reading everyone's discussion, it would make sense to me to maybe be able to train awareness(in respect to your defense, not vision). From an rp POV this hold's true. A smart gangster who can survive, will be alert to a potential threat. As for the theory of "No one is supposed to live long? I disagree. Yes, it should be hard to survive and I think it is... to be honest. Those that think people live too long..comes off to me as pure jealousy. Longevity of life is in fact the goal... 

As of now, there are 2 cities unoccupied. There is a want by many including admin. to create more cities... This can only happen if the population here grows. It is currently a vicious circle of the same players (in many cases) starting over. The amount of "actual" new players I would have to assume is very low. Although there are many reason's why "new blood" fail, I can only see a balance in this idea that would allow more option's for players. Personally, I feel the start up answers are widely known and accepted and this takes away from the overall mystique of the game.  

The other option are with training the defence of ones character, some XP you earn from training could go towards mugging/pickpocket attempts instead of just wack attempts. This way it still cuts it down the middle or you dont average the same amount of XP when you train.

Classes to teach you how to dodge bullets. The MOB uses guns not martial arts.

Agreed.

Sorry about the double post.


If you want higher defense,vote everyday,I hear it helps prevent wackback.

maybe not to dodge bullets but to lie low longer? maybe the defence classes are a concept that increases a percentage of you lieing low longer? I think that be a pretty good idea.