People dupe all the time, even though there are strict rules and punishments. People evade bans all the time, even though there are strict rules and punishments. People send spam and harassing mails all the time even though there are strict rules and punishments. People take unauthorized shots all the time, even though there are strict rules and punishments. See where I'm going with this? The stupid thing is just one example on the smaller scale. But no, it is not ok to tell people their suggestions are stupid, even if you explain why. That is one reason people are scared to post in the streets. People can be crude and insensitive and this feature would only heighten the ability to be those things.

Are there any instances where those offenses haven't been taken care of when they're discovered, though?

With such a public forum like posting, I don't think you can really equate any of those examples with it - especially when the administrators already have a very convenient post removal feature.

No ralph, cause when someone is banned, and they evade the ban, they get punished again, a longer ban, permanently, whatever. If they then evade that ban, they are punished again. They are always found out and no good comes from their ban evading. When someone dupes, they are killed, and if they do it again, they are banned, and then, well, see above, same pattern.

To compare this though, to unauthorised shots is a little strange though. I mean, that is not a game(admin made) rule, it is a user created rule, and the punished for that actually works as well. You shoot someone, you die, do it again, you die. You get nowhere with breaking whatever rule it is.

With a rule as monitorable (might not be a word, but meh) as this one, there will be very little abuse to start off with, and it will then sink to no abuse, when people see they are actually being killed and banned for this.

My point was... People still do those things. Regardless of the rules and punishments.

People dupe all the time, even though there are strict rules and punishments.

And they get DD'ed.

People evade bans all the time, even though there are strict rules and punishments.

And they get banned again.

People send spam and harassing mails all the time even though there are strict rules and punishments.

And once again, they get their punishment.

People take unauthorized shots all the time, even though there are strict rules and punishments.

Unauth shots are an IC thing and none of Admins' business.

See where I'm going with this?

Spike, seriously I think I have been victim to some of the most ridiculous and viscious public attacks in in the last year.  I have been publicly called horrible names, my personal business has been posted in the streets, a plethora of logs showing me in a negative light have been posted for everyone in #dl to see.  All this was done under people's known names. No one tried to hide their behavior.  I have seen it happen to others as well, and no one has ever tried to hide it.  This would not give an avenue for people to be vicious, they don't need it, its done already if the people so chose to.  You are looking at this one aspect, as though it matters, and arguing intensely against the suggestion for this one aspect that isnt even the heart of the matter.  What is important is having the right to state your opinions, and state reasons that may go against what the current leadership approves without fearing reprisal in the game.  You do not have to trust anyone to use the feature appropriately.  You are not the sites daddy, or an admin who would need to police it.  Let the Admins worry about people's behavior.  Also, you said I made a point that the anon posts wouldnt really me anon.   I think we are confused, so I just want to restate my comment.  I think that helpdesk should be able to delete and red flag anon posts, and that admins can punish as they always would if they so chose.  it would still be anon to most, just like my email address is known only to admin

And yet Padrino... They still continue to do it. Crazy, I know.

Having spent a long time reading all the points. I feel this could still be a useful addition.

I can understand the possible abuse aspect many have spoken of, but I disagree with that view point.

And yet Padrino... They still continue to do it. Crazy, I know.

Reply by: PC-Cassiopeia at Jan 16, '13 22:35

Precisely. It's a suggestion that has merits and drawbacks. The drawbacks are something that already exist without this feature. Implementing this feature would create no additional drawbacks, so your argument is a logical fallacy IMO.

A lot has been said about the possibility of abuse and the fact people should know how to express themselves in a civil way.

I believe the spirit of the suggestion doesn't have to do with that. It has to do with the fact that if there is a game change/suggestion about whacking, most of the people interested in it would be hitters. THEN you would want to post anonymously.

I would only support it in Outside, Help, Suggestions, News & Announcements, Player Commission (for people NOT in the PC)

I will sponsor this under those pretenses and the rules mentioned by enkindle earlier.

However, I do think there is some beauty in LaMotta's suggestion to post through CA. The problem is that only players that can afford a CA would post and you can still tell what city they are from.

As for the metaphor of children and firecrackers... and all the other bickering... I think some people need to state their case and leave it be. This is not a place to WIN arguments. This is a place to state your opinions and let the other people form their own. I'm a bit sad to see some colleagues from the PC insisting so heavily trying to convince the rest of the world of their point of view. We already gathered who is for this and who is against it. All this bickering should have not gone longer than 2 pages and I have spent too much time reading FIVE pages of back and forth.

Oh, I digressed from what I wanted to say before... Anonymity is not like a fire cracker. Maybe it's like matches. You can light a firecracker or you can light a candle to shed some light when it's dark.

Pumpkins, I was citing that instance as one of my reasons for why I don't trust the userbase to be anonymous. What happened to you was disgusting. People are generally too cruel. They didn't hide their behavior, no, but had they been given the ability to, I'm sure the abuse would have gone on further, and perhaps been even more vicious had there been the fodder for it.

How many opinions concerning game suggestions could really upset leadership IG? Also, I said one of the options now is messaging the admins themselves...

As for the admins, I do care about them, and don't want to make any extra work for them, so your argument there is invalid. 

It wouldnt have gone on any longer at all.  Admins were involved before it ended anyway, people will do what people will do regardless.  There are plenty of things that people could suggest or argue for or against that game leadership wouldnt like.  We cant really know, because people just keep it to themselves or as you said message the admin themselves.  If people message the admins, unless they hear from a lot of people, how would they know that the concern is backed by the general public?  How would the player commission be able to sponsor the suggestion?  How could they then take the idea, tweak it, and show the admins that they support the idea? If the whole point of suggestions forums and the PC is to allow the players some input on how the game devolops, what good would it be to keep ideas private?

TLDR; post anon so you don't have to break incog/hitter status while asking admin questions in OOC threads

Limitations are as follows:

Sounds good, Enkindle personally I would never use it but I've never cared if people realized I knew where the wack button was.. I guess some people are more sensitive and this feature would be for them...

I'm gonna sponsor this.

On another note I noticed some of you discussing a possibility of wanting a 'rumor' or completely anon-forum.. This dastardly handsome individual made this suggestion a very long time ago maybe you could have a look.

http://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/275115#3522336

{I'm not gonna even read the four pages of bickering. Nope, seriously not gonna.}

"TLDR; post anon so you don't have to break incog/hitter status while asking admin questions in OOC threads"

Whitey, that's not what this thread is about. Reread. It isn't about incog status. It's about real players wanting incog status when commenting. Don't support something if you haven't read it all or properly.

"It isn't about incog status. It's about real players wanting incog status when commenting."

highlight the difference please.

The people who want to be anonymous are everyday non incog players who want a means to say things in an anonymous fashion. That's the difference. 

What you were saying reads like this suggestion is about incogs or people who want to protect their hitter status wanting anonymity.... The suggestion is not simply for them. It's for everyone. It would grant anonymity to anyone with a name, incog, SpikeSpiegel, or otherwise. I do not like that idea.

Okay, let's have a signup feature.

If you plan on being incog click here __

This will grant you the ability to post anonymously and nobody else. That how you want it to go?

I don't understand your point. I really really don't. You want ONLY incog people to be able to do it? The point of the suggestion is for people to be able to say things in OOC avenues that will not impact their game character negatively. We've already outlined that there would have to be many safeguards to keep people from being abusive. 

You told me not to sponsor something if I didn't understand it.. Why don't you figure out WHY you dislike the idea and get back to me? By the way it only will 'grant' anonymity to those in the outline enkindle offered.

Why don't you take some time and read things before calling me out.