Luger walked the streets with death and evil in his pockets fore it was always risky not to walk with either of the two. His face was shown in these parts not too long ago, but his presence was always a pleasure. With such pleasure he received is what drew his fascination to return.

Picking a soapbox then stepping onto it; he fidget with his tie a bit then calmed his nerves with a puff of the ol Big 5 as he began his speech.

"Hello everyone, great to see some familiar faces in the crowd and I hope you hear from you all after this." He takes one last puff to redeem his cool then puts it out.

"I have recently encountered a man that has ignited a spark of curiosity in my mind. I'm not going to point him out but I'm sure he's going to be one to debate on this topic. The question is, who gets the most respect? Is it the person with the high rank or the person with most body counts?"

Luger looks at the crowd that stood in front of him and notice a bit of an increase and smiled. 

"I personally think it's the gun that does the talking. You can be high ranked with a bold attitude but with no skills in the steel will only lead to a coffin in my eyes. Now I want to hear from you, what do you think of this? What brings power? Rank or Gun?"

He takes a step back and let the spotlight be taking away by the next person with a voice in usage while he listens.

Mudkip listened in on the mans discussion and figured he'd drop a point in before he had to leave for Governor's bank in Philly to deposit some odd funds

'Well, Rank is good, you should do well to respect anyone above your current rank, as they are higher up in the echelon then you are, excluding hands & Crew leaders and such. In theory it should be rank but in my own personal opinion, i'd hold someone with a larger gun higher then someone with a higher rank, rank is not as hard to acquire as it once was but a gun is always a nice touch upon people'

Mudkip was at an odds end on this discussion, both were very appreciated in his terms of life but he had made his decision to favor the gun over the rank

Sanction stands around looking a little confused before approaching Luger.

Nice to meet you mate, and a good point. Although can you define "rank" for me please? Do you mean what rank they are in the family... As in Made Man, Capo, Boss e.t.c? Or do you mean rank as in a Right Hand Man or a CL?

I will address both just to cover it.

Made man and above I believe gun is the determining factor, although respect comes into play. When out on the streets if you are "outranked" you don't talk down to the person. That is a big no no. Though to your city and family I believe gun is the biggest factor for anyone above made man.

I think differently about a Right Hand Man or a CL though, these people are very highly valued within their family and city, and are given a lot of respect. Some might have a good body count, some might not. The point is they are usually in that position because they excel in a certain field, be it a family adviser just a good role model. There are many fields apart from shooting that people can be good at and I believe that can get them into a position that is regarded as valuable if not more valuable that just a cold blooded killer. 

Cap stands upon the many in the crowd as  the speaker finishes his speech, though it left his mind in a world of disarray..it was a great question. though many prolly wont step forth, it would be good to see.

Cap rarely came to these streets as much as he has within the weeks current, and it may be because his greats had forbid it way before there time...so now he stands to make a new.....

I believe rank should be honored in every aspect, yet why no one gets where they are by pats on the back.. there's dirty work involved at every turn...so i answer your question with one. 

"Shouldn't a higher rank try there best to balance/multi-task  both efforts to achieve higher greatness?"

cz the saying goes "there is always room for improvement" 

Luger listens to the men then smiled as he thanks them for their quick responses.

Looking at Sanctionater he replies, "I don't mean to disrespect anyone that outranks me, they have obviously worked harder and deserve the credit. Though when I mean rank I mean all ranks including RHM. True lots of respect is given to them but lets say someone goes rogue... their respect to them is lost. Why is that? Do they doubt their ability to diminish them?"

Luger then places his attention over to Capengo.

"I think that would be up to their CL to rank them on their gun capability. Some high ranks aren't hitters yet loyal to their CL to get the rank their at today, but in reality most are trying to balance both effort. Great question!"

I heard two very good points being made here. 

Do you mean what rank they are in the family... As in Made Man, Capo, Boss e.t.c? Or do you mean rank as in a Right Hand Man or a CL?

And,

 "Shouldn't a higher rank try there best to balance/multi-task  both efforts to achieve higher greatness?"

To put my two cents in on the first question there, I beleive that  if you are not bold or italic your gun is most important of all. I will always respect a higher rank than my own but I will respect the gun he is holding a hell of a lot more than his rank. 

Its like how us woman like men with money and power but you are nothing unless you got a big gun ; )

And on to the second question,

This is obvious as you have pointed out. If you are going to be a leader, a man/woman to protect your people, you should be packing more than any other on that crew.

Hope this was an alright post.. 

MR posting anxiety haha

<3

Luger that is a good point, I believe it comes down to respect being earned and not just given. When I see someone go rouge and turn on their own family it leads me to believe that the upper structure did not earn the respect of that person, instead the person believes that the respect was demanded.

If true respect is earned then someone would never go rouge in spite of their family, other reasons could easily affect it though. 

Artorem noticed Luger fielding questions from various individuals trying to contribute to the discussion, so he waits until he's had some time to respond before providing his own thoughts on the matter.

There's a few different ways to gauge "value", and I think that's the only way you can come to a logical conclusion with this type of discussion. There exists certain aspects of our world which are centered around rank, and some around guns. So when we approach the topic, it's important to define exactly what we're hoping to solve. Which is more valuable? Which is more impressive? Which provides you with the most influence? I think they all center around the same core point. Which would give us the means to make the effect we want to make? It's not wise to acquire only one of these positions of stature if you seek to actually make a difference in this world.

For instance, a Made Man has the ability to set up his own crew if he has the money and the courage to do so. However, an Earner is unable to accomplish such a feat. Why? Because rank matters. The Earner could brandish the singe greatest weapon our world has ever seen, but he'd have no power to actually embolden himself with a crew of his own. In this regard, rank is superior. (Originally, drug units were increased by ranking up, but now rank no longer contributes to that aspect of income. But Organized Crimes and felonies still require a certain rank to be executed.)

Does gun strength have this same characteristic? No, it doesn't. Murder is something you could go without your entire career, and still accomplish something great. It may be difficult, but there's nothing you must accomplish in your hitting career that is stopping you from becoming the guy at the top. In this regard, rank is still superior.

So when does gun strength factor into power? Well, to start, the notches on our gun isn't a badge you wear around like our rank. Even when it comes to the "achievements" that people are so proud of, none will display the ones involving killing. It's a part of Omerta, because protecting that information is vital to the security of our family. Therefore, training a strong gun doesn't give you power, because no one actually knows you have it, until you use it. And this is, fundamentally, the source of a gun's power. If it is never used, it holds no weight or influence over anyone, especially if they're unaware of how many have fallen to it. However, gun strength alone doesn't produce power. It's how and when you use it.

What provides more power? Passively, rank contributes more to your ability to succeed. You need rank if you seek to accomplish anything great. Actively, a show of power is done through the use of a gun (or more accurately, a lot of guns). Moves are made with guns. History is made with guns.

But then again, lets say this Earner did hold the greatest gun possible and then with this gun shot and killed the Godfather. I think he would be given quite some respect for this feat if he had associates alongside him. If he wasnt killed after lol

Luger listens to what Artorem had to say then spoke once he finished.

"Very good points Artorem! I take my hat off to you most certainly. Fair enough, I have came to the compromise that both rank and guns should be balanced if you're aiming for ranks such as CL/RHM/LHM. They have a major responsibilities and should ensure protection for their family and city district. However as previously said by Sanctionater, true respect is earned. I think if a person with a low rank did put his cannon to use for the right reasons, they would receive just as much respect as the higher ranks. Though if it's for the wrong reasons, such as a rogue's intentions; this is when a high rank with a high body count comes to play to protect. Again no disrespect to any Made and above, I think all respect is earned."

He then takes his flask out of his suit's pocket to lubricate his dry mouth then waits to hear more responses.

Keme greeted her family member with a wink. Then sliding her arm around his shoulder she stood there by his side and began to have a conversation with him.

"Well, Luger, my friend. I'd have to say it is a bit of both."

Tossing a coin in the air she then caught it with her right hand.

"Hard work pays off with making your way up the food chain. Moving your way up from a Petty Thief to a Don says that you have accomplished a lot during your time on our streets. All of us may not be able to see what they have done, but we should have the brain to respect their 'rank'. They have obviously impressed their leaders which I feel means we should also give them that same respect. Just because we haven't met them doesn't mean they haven't earned the respect."

"Yet, a gun also is a powerful factor in our world. It backs your rank, like how this fellow here, Artorem? Right, how he said it gives you power. With power you can demand respect. If you do not respect that power then it could be ending your life that next second."

"I feel that with a mix of both you could be one deadly weapon in these parts! A hard worker and power is an impressive combination. I would also like to add something in though. I think with both of those you would need to have the intelligence to match. You can work hard, but make a stupid decision and lose all that respect that you had gained. You could have one hell of a gun, but shoot the wrong person, and be six feet under. You need a brain to back both to keep that respect. Otherwise, you will eventually lose it all and like trust, gaining your respect back is hard to do."

I would respect both Rank and Gun, Its takes hard work to level both of them

But then again, lets say this Earner did hold the greatest gun possible and then with this gun shot and killed the Godfather. I think he would be given quite some respect for this feat if he had associates alongside him. If he wasnt killed after lol

Reply by: Synergy at May 04, '13 23:19

i understand what your saying in this matter..i really do..but this is a world where we show our loyalty to those we believe in (upper) yet still hold our own futures with every breath.... so why would a person shoot a GF, if even possible..if he  had intentions of being greater in his own life..i dont see it..he would sooner or later die, cz he wouldnt make it to GF..cz of the know death

The question is, who gets the most respect? Is it the person with the high rank or the person with most body counts?

The person who gets the most respect is the one that earns the most respect. That respect is earned through their words and through their actions. The rank they may hold or the kill count they may have acquired are completely separate to this and, quite frankly, unrelated.

Yes, we must show the respect required to a rank. This has been one of the tenants of this thing of ours from the very beginning and will continue to be part of this thing of ours long after each of us have died and been forgotten. However, there is a huge difference between showing the respect a rank deserves and someone having earned your full respect. The two are completely different. One is given as it is required and comes with no real loyalty or substance behind it. The other is something that is earned and leads to a far greater level of trust, dedication, loyalty and is far more meaningful.

Just as we must show the respect required to a rank held, we also must respect positions which are held in this thing of ours. If someone has been given the position of a crew leader, or even a position like left hand man, you can almost see it in their eyes. They carry themselves a different way and you would know their positions simply by glancing at them and seeing how they carry themselves. Maybe it's the confidence that comes with leading a family that allows them wear such bold suits that makes them stand out. Perhaps it's the extra responsibilities that a hand carries for the family that weights heavy on their shoulders and makes them stand almost slanted that lets us pick them out. Regardless of the reasons, these people of position must be shown the level of respect that the position deserves. Again, however, this is different to someone who has earned our respect through their acts and their deeds, so it's still lacking in how far it goes.  

As for someone with a huge kill count, does that deserve our respect? Alone, and without anything else to judge them on, no. Not in the slightest. It might warrant our fear, if you were the type of person who feared such things. However there is nothing about a kill count or an amazing shot record alone that warrants respect in and of itself. There's a huge difference between fear and respect, one that is often overlooked in this thing of ours.  Though it must be said, there are plenty of people that would choose having fear over having respect, it still shouldn't mean we confuse one with the other. 

Satanta i concure..you at right on point with your  remarks

I feel like stamping my feet and throwing a tantrum right now, Luger. I was planning on raising this topic a few days down the line and now you've beaten me to it. 

Now back to the topic at hand. I believe that neither rank nor your gun determines how respected you are. It's the way you behave and the way you carry yourself that earns respect, at least in my opinion.

Allow me to elucidate, a man with the largest kill count ever would not earn my respect if he could not use that 'hand cannon' of his for the betterment of his Family and used it in a selfish fashion. If he/she feels that the kill count they posses gives them power to over rule the decisions taken by the leaders of the Family,he/she would just be the same as every other person here to me. Or rather, he would be lower than most in my mind. I would fear him, of course I would however, he would not earn my respect and he would just be a monkey with a big gun. Similarly, a guy who outranks me would not earn my respect if he makes rookie mistakes, or if he does not pull in a contribution to the Family that justifies his rank. Again, I would definitely not go public with this because he was promoted by his leader and if his leader, whoever he/she may be decides he is worthy of a rank, who am I to question him/her? However, I would NOT at any point in my life, respect said individual.

<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">If a person with a rather small gun and a </font>comparatively<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)"> lower rank acts like a proper mafioso and does not bring in trouble for the Family, this life of ours and acts the part, I would definitely respect him even more. For instance, I respect Artorem more than I would respect quite a few high rankers. People who I feel are not deserving of carrying that rank or that tag of 'nuke'. This is because of the way he carries himself in public and the amount of effort he puts into making these Streets flourish again, also from the limited conversations I have had with him, he strikes me as a person who does not mince words and has a firm grip on the way the world works. Worthy of respect in my book.</font>

I guess I can keep this somewhat brief. Rank isn't what it used to be. However, certain positions some may hold outside of rank are the best thing to look at though some of these are not so apparent. Respect is something that isn't given easily by anybody, but usually it comes down to how a person carries themselves. When it comes to a gun, usually, one can gather some respect for someone who has built up a decent one because they know how much dedication it took, but if a person has an amazing gun, they usually are involved other things as well.

A decent rank is something that's nice to have... but it doesn't mean much. A position might not mean much either. A gun, however, can give power, but not respect, only fear. There is a clear difference there. Being respectful to someone does not mean that you respect them. It all comes down to a balance of different attributes to be fully respected, and it is never easy. 

"Very interesting topic you bring up here...I really agree and was thinking along the same likes of Satanta in some aspects.I mean you can build a gun cool.You made Don ,That is great and Made+ I think always deserves a lot more respect then they are given."

"I remember seeing people years ago bitch about buttons being given to quick or what have you.It most likely still happens.The rank of made-man in my eyes means a lot people earn that.However I find the people that really stand out are the people who earn these positions and do it flawlessly.By that I mean they go to the street and set the bar,they can debate or tell a story in their own way and in a respectful way."

"Respect should never be given just because they can shoot someone.It's earned and is always a two way street and a double edge sword.If someone can carry themselves along and have that aura flow from them in the streets I find that is where respect is sought."

"I catch myself listening to speakers a lot in the streets.Sometimes I do not really say much.I tend to admire a lot like , hey that guy has a nice suit but damn the presence shifts when he tells his story.People listen and people follow."

"Well that's what I think anyways hope it wasn't to much of a ramble.But a very good speech and debate!"

I mulled over this topic for a bit and ended up giving it quite a bit of consideration before deciding to voice my opinion on the matter, especially after reading some of the well thought out responses already given that pretty much echo my own sentiments on the matter.

Respect is one of those things that someone earns from you, whether it be by their street presence, their demeanor in public or even history between bloodlines.  To me it is never really an aspect that relies on a few factors, but really it's just how the whole package comes together in the person that makes them the individual they are without giving gun strength, title or position even a seconds thought.

Basically, I treat everyone with the common decency I expect in return regardless of whom they are unless they give me a reason not to.

Of course this is probably a different idea than the kind of respect you meant when asking this question.  So, in reply I think Title and gun strength both play a rather large role in business interactions with others in this line of work.

The gun less so, unless of course you have the one that can kill anybody and you also find yourself in the position that no one can kill you barring a 1%  Then you'll find it tends to influence people a whole lot more than most are willing to admit.