Zephyra walks into the streets. Coming to a run down business she takes a stand on the stairs. Turning herself so she can observe the crowd passing her by. Oblivious to her presence as they go about their business. She ponders what each might be up to but keeps her thoughts to herself. She was planning to speak on a topic she had been thinking about for awhile. Turning her attention to a young boy beside the stairs that she nearly had forgotten about and takes her whip in hand. Cracking it loudly in the air, Zephyra smiles as people come to a stop and turn in her direction. Handing the whip back to the young boy she smiles at the crowd.

"Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen. I'm pleased that I have gotten your attention as I have something on my mind that I would like to discuss with you all."

Pausing to gauge the interest of the crowd around her before she continues to the heart of her speech.

"Loyalty. I'm sure it's been spoken of before but I have been doing a lot of thinking about it. I've seen people sporting tags of loyalty to their dead ancestors former families and it makes my mind wonder. If a person is loyal to the dead, does that mean they cannot be loyal to the living? What happens if the former dead leaders kin asked a favor of those people that basically say they are still loyal, do they do the favor? Or stick to their current leader and remain loyal to them if it is a conflict of interest?

Is it enough for people to claim they are loyal? Should they show it with their actions? Do people prefer both, the claim and the action?

But that runs into the Made Man and upper ranks. Those that jump from their crew in a time of a war to save themselves. Are they really trustworthy? Should they not have gone down with their family that they chose to join and follow? I thought it was till death with the exceptions of being given your own family or being promoted to the roles of Right Hand or Left Hand. Does loyalty no longer matter?

All of these questions come to mind when I think of loyalty. Personally, I think actions speak louder than words and always will. Therefore I do not feel the need to claim that I am loyal to my Crewleader but through my actions I would hope he would see it. If I was not prepared to die for the crewleader I joined I probably would never have joined them. There just wouldn't be a point in my eyes. Anyone can claim something but it doesn't necessarily make it true.

Zephyra pauses once more. Catching her breath as she was starting to speak faster at the end of the speech.

"What I want to know is what comes to mind when you think of loyalty? What are your views?"

Stepping off the stairs, Zephyra made room for the next person to speak their minds..

Good evening, Zephyra.

In the past, there have been many cases where someone has shown more loyalty to their former boss' kin than their current boss. However, I do believe our ancestry lines are so long now that we are beginning to 'grow out of it' for want of a better phrase. I feel it happens less and less now and people generally stick with their bosses.

Tags... well, my only request is that my members make people aware they are a part of Psychopathic Records and/or (by proxy) Intentionally Left Blank as my loyalty is to Subtle. After that, it's totally upto them.

As for your other questions... I briefly touched on the subject of loyalty with another bold suit tonight. They were of the opinion that it was tough to get absolute loyalty from members nowadays. I disagreed as I believe that loyalty totally relies on the leader and his or her upper structures. Those people need to inspire loyalty from their members. Maybe I'm foolhardy, but I like to think that I can get the vast majority of my family's complete loyalty. Unfortunately there will always be cases to the contrary but I do believe the percentages can be vastly improved with the right management.

I much prefer actions to claims, there is nothing more reassuring than being deep in the mire and seeing your family besides you as one unit. However I do try to keep my upper structure on their toes, testing their claims by briefly putting them outside of their normal comfort zones.

In the end, it is all about interaction with members for me. Human history dictates that a comfortable, family-type close-knit environment in any walk of life is usually how most people prefer it... from religion to sport to personal security. If a leader and their structure can create that atmosphere, they will have gone a long way towards securing their members loyalty in my view.

Loyalty means different things from different people. When somebody says they'd die for me or for the crew, how much weight that takes in my mind is incredibly dependent on how often that person's family tend to end up in the funeral home for reasons which do not involve taking one for the team or dying for your crew or district or city. For example, families with strong histories of suicide when things aren't going their way, or for acting rashly and in a manner considering rogueish.

It's all well and good to say actions speak louder than words, but sometimes, histories that repeat themselves over and over speak even more loudly than those actions. And that's coming from me, and I think I'm pretty damn fair about giving people a chance.

As for whether I'd prefer the claim or the action.. I guess the honest answer there is the knowledge. The feeling. The gut instinct that says, "I can trust this guy/girl". An incredibly hard worker can betray your trust in a heartbeat, and the laziest fucker out there can be as loyal as anything, just contributing little. But when you take the time to get to know someone, to grow to trust them, that's when you know there is loyalty there. That's when you know they'll be the ones still there til the bitter end.

In the case of tags, I don't think it's always particularly correct to assume that it's a show of loyalty towards a past leader, or a show of disrespect/lesser respect towards ones current leader. I think sometimes it's nostalgia for past times, a way to find the children of old friends who will undoubtedly be running around with different names, and sometimes maybe even a small way of saying thank you to a crew that helped your bloodline find it's feet in this world.

As Orithyia said, so long as my crew tag themselves with Fort Hubcaps, I'm not really too concerned with what they do after that.

Bricktop sighs, once again the topic of Loyalty has come to these streets, one day someone may come up with some new topics to discuss, but loyalty is one that always draws a crowd, everyone has their opinion on loyalty.

Zephyra, your first comment states if people are loyal to the dead, can they not be loyal to the living? Now, everyone grieves at the loss of their father, mother, uncle, and they also grieve at the death of their leader, who most see as a good friend. Why should someone not want to publicly grieve about their late leader, they joined them for a reason, because they were happy there, thats where they felt safe. Every time you go to a new crew, you start again, you have to make new friends, gain new trusts, make the new place feel like home. Correct me if i am wrong but I believe everyone in their sane mind will miss their previous family, because thats what they are used to. Where the loyalty lies is completely upto each person, you cant make them change their loyalty. A recruiting crew leader will know this, and will be smart about their recruiting, understanding that people may even want revenge for what happened previously, its only normal.

I speak for myself only here, but im sure others share the same opinion. You arent going to get made man in my family if you arent loyal. No if's, no but's, if you dont show your loyalty you may as well suicide now and make it easier for the both of us, dont go and rogue or it just shows how un-loyal you actually are. Oh, and if you jump crews during a war, people remember that, you dont get off lightly from it.

What you have got to take into account is, (and i hate to say it) the underground organizations. Now these are not physical groups we can see like who~err~fuck~off and 104100000 like there used to be, they dont meet up for weekly meetings and hold hands (with the exception of the brotherhood, they all touch each others dicks and stuff). These are relationships between bloodlines that are stronger then the relationships of you and your new crew that, to be honest, dont really give a fuck about you as long as your making money. Sadly this is often the case, Im not blaming all leaders, and especially not talking about my own, but there are leaders out there who seem to not care about their crew members, as long as they get money in their bank account weekly. Now, can you really blame someone for not wanting to be loyal in one of these crews?

Loyalty, be what you make of it, everyone is loyal to someone, perhaps their Cl, perhaps their oldest friend, or perhaps only themselves. People dont change, some people will never be loyal to their Cl's, and some honestly will die for them. Just hope your crew will die for you. And what if they wont? Well in that case, you need to give them a good reason to want to stay in your crew, and die for you. Loyalty is like respect, it is earned, not given out like goodie bags at my sons birthday party. Respect is lacking somewhat nowadays, perhaps loyalty is too?

Loyalty is why you pay your taxes, because you feel you should do it.  No questions, gun, knife, or any other threatening object coercing you to do it.  You just do it. 

Yes sir.  No sir.  Would you like extra ass kissing with that?  Anything to make the boss feel he has an underling worth keeping around.  Soldiers don't think, so neither should we.

Now im simply speaking in response to Negis statement I have to say i partly agree loyalty is why you pay your taxes and listen to your cl I disagree with us being mindless soldiers when a mafia boss looks down his nose at his men when he hoards all the cash when he degrades his men and sits on high he gets taken out and replaced that the way it works normally. Ive led a crews before not in this game specifically but in other similar games so im familiar with leading,the responsibility and politics but over all one of the biggest things is making yourself approachable even to the lowest person in the family.This to me makes all the difference in loyalty in my opinion if you simply sit back collect taxes and don't make any attempt to mix with the troops get down into the trenches and have relationships with your crew mates you shouldn't be leading.Loyalty is a two way street loyalty shouldn't simply be given a leader should show why he deserves it to begin with.

and to the original point I myself mourn the loss of Frank Sinatra but this doesn't take away from my loyalty to Jack carter or the Cockney Elite but that's me.

(forgive my poor grammar or spelling)

Tony walks up to the streets and overhears this never ending topic of loyalty. he decises to give his opinion once again on the subject.

Good evening everyone,

as to the topic of having multiple crew tags i have to admit that i am one of those people. just because i have the crew tag "Weapon X Project" on my profile does not mean that i am not loyal to my current CL. it just means that Deadpool (RIP) has earned my respect and i feel the need to honor his memory. i believe that having the crew tag of a former crew does not mean that you are loyal to 2 CL's. I believe in Blood in and Blood out. i hope this answers the question.

Tony takes his leave and while departing the gathering crowd, he lights up his cigar and pulls out his 4th bottle of whiskey.

Loyalty. Something that hasn't been around too often lately in my view. The only reason I say that is because of the last time my bloodline was around these parts. It was during the apocalyptic war that pretty much killed everyone besides the few victors that remained in Chicago. That single war contained the most amount of treachery I have witnessed in all of my days. I'll move on from that though.

As Orithyia stated he feels that family ancestry has gotten so long that we are growing out of being loyal to our previous Bosses. I believe its something similar. I believe people tend to wear an old crew tag not because they are loyal to their old bosses, but they want to share where they came from. Usually its the highlight of their career.

When it comes to tags, I urge my members to wear their tags just from the off chance that if I die in my sleep they are protected to find shelter else where. I have a unique set of values and rules when it comes to running an organization and when it comes to a promotion, trust and loyalty is the heaviest thing I weigh in. Loyalty and family is the last thing we have in this "thing of ours". I have found that with working the right way and inspiring certain things makes your members loyal to you.

I think everyone prefers actions over claims. Actions just speak so much louder than words or claims ever will. If I was a member of someone and all I cared about was surviving, I'd just preach "I'm loyal till the end" but more often than not, that person is the first to jump ship. I always felt that if you are sworn into that family, you die with your family.

In the end though, loyalty means more to me than anything. Like I said, I do things a tad different from other crewleaders. And loyalty is all that I require.

Betty drops her cigarette and steps on it, ensuring it was fully extinguished before turning towards the small crowd

I may be just a little guy in this thing of ours, but at one time my mother's bloodline had to question her loyalty, and based on her journals, she felt she did the right thing for the people depending on her.  Why? Well it was simple...and it's a question or stance that I pose to each and every one of you.

What do you do when you no longer feel that your Boss is no longer loyal to you, or his entire empire? What do you do when you feel like your boss is nothing more than a puppet,  being played with by those who have zero interest in the well being of their loyal subjects, and more interest in being "all powerful"? How can you be loyal when all you want to do is gain rank and earn the trust of the Family and the heads of the family are so paranoid and constantly changing the rules or the way things need to be done without really letting anyone know?  What do you do when your boss shoots someone in the face "on accident", allows his right hand to slander all over in the streets, and gives two shits about your opinion?

Loyalty does not come with being in a Family, I fear.  Loyalty has to be EARNED by those who demand it so blindly.

Wheeeeeee, Loyalty. Totally new topic. Whopeeee, let's discuss loyalty. 

Ok, yes the topic of loyalty is a bit of a dead horse but there are only so many horses in this world and eventually they all drop dead but we still need to whip something... hence the continued whipping is pretty much our only choice.

Moving on, yes, there are quite a few people who sport tags that announce allegiance to another crew, either long gone or still existent. To be honest, I don't really care who you proclaim to support but I do care about the person whom you support via your actions. I could go around wearing the crew tags of every single crew that ever existed but my actions would eventually be for the betterment of the actual HQ I inhabit.

What I am basically trying to say is that each person is unique. Some have the crew tag of their parent's crew simply because of their need to engage in some nostalgia while others wear it to subtly announce some inane desire for revenge. One can't really judge it as a total group.

As for the last two posts made here.... I actually didn't see as big an amount of 'disloyalty' as people seem to be claiming. I saw Godfathers leading their districts on a path they liked. Oh yeah, I also remember reading about ThomasAnderson. Just one isolated case. Not the most amount of treachery by my book at least.

Although it pains me (=P), I'd have to agree with McLuvin here.

A lot of the supposed 'traitors' of that war were indeed not traitors in my eyes. If their Godfather led them a different way then that is totally acceptable. It's time this world got out of the '1 person rules the entire city' mode of thinking. If a Godfather runs a district then it is his or her's decision which way that district goes... not the person who put them there. Being given a Godfather position means that district is YOURS. You can choose to follow the person who put you there or not, you have earned that right!

I say this with a heavy heart as I was extremely disappointed with the ones who did 'flip' (for want of a better word'), it cost my parent their life. However, I don't blame them for it. My parent would have probably gone the same way if they hadn't felt such a strong loyalty to their own boss as they totally agreed with the reasons the old Chicago went to war with.

McLuvin my dear, I was not talking about "disloyalty". I was talking about how you join a Family and immediately they expect you to be loyal to them, no matter what.  While that has been my bloodline's mantra in the past,  my mother's experience prior showed me just where loyalty comes into play.

She ran a family that was 100% loyal to her, and she to them, though she had to work hard to gain trust from them.  She sat under a Godfather who could not take a shit without permission from another cities Godfather.  She tolerated being the butt end of their jokes, though they denied that they used to joke about how her crew was full of losers. That same man allowed his punk of a right hand burn people in the streets! And he commended him for it! Completely insulting my mother, because of the fact that the deceased was her former Right Hand. And she took all of this, staying loyal to her Godfather.  Then in the end she did something my bloodlines have NEVER done before. She turned against those who had "supported" her along the way.  And if you really want to boil it down, it was due to one person.  The person's ego had grown so large and he gained so much favor with the Godfather, that she could no longer speak to her Godfather rationally.  At that point, communication had broken down, and all hope was lost.  She knew that if things continued as they were, war was inevitable.   She had to decide for her Family's sake if she was willing to risk their lives to support a faction she no longer believed in herself. And well, you know the rest of the story......

She worked damn hard to gain the loyalty of her Family, and in the end, they came through for her, even at her death. Almost all survived under a man that no one thought had it in him to become something. One of the "losers". Some of you may disagree, but Frank was a damn hard worker and put his best out there for my mother and the Family.  And in the end, the decedents of the fallen concocted some lame ass story that others bought and ended his life.  

So here I stand, troubled by the idea of Loyalty and blindly giving it to whomever puts a roof over my head.  I am at the point where I feel my leaders need to earn my loyalty instead of me just pledging blindly to them.  Some of you will disagree with me, which is just fine.  You don't always have to agree.

As far as the Family I am in now, my boss & surrounding Family heads have reached out to me, offered help and support, and asked for nothing.  They have nurtured my loyalty, and therefore they have it.  

Orithyia: Thank you for your opinion. I like the idea that you test their claims. It means you like to actually know for certain and it's often hard to tell without the person being put to the test. Whether it's only when push comes to shove or through tests of being outside comfort zones.

Ziva: So you take into consideration the past actions of bloodlines? What happens if there is no past bloodline to look at? I merely ask out of curiosity of course. Sometimes bloodline history isn't all that accurate.

I can definitely understand the tags. It is important that members are tagged with their family names without a doubt. It's not an assumption that their loyalty is to the dead but it does bring up questions of whether or not they are in some minds. Of course you are right in the getting to know someone first without assuming. I want to clarify the tags I mean are not the family tags. Those are a given and rightly so. I mean the tags on kins that would not be a direct next of kin to a dead leader. Those are the ones that give me pause and make me question.

Bricktop: I think it may depend on the person on whether or not they would miss their previous families. It would depend on the situation and how that persons bloodline actually felt about that specific leader. Not everyone is always happy where they are or there wouldn't be suicides, rogues, etc. '

Can I blame people for not wanting to be loyal in those crews? No, but I could blame them if they stuck around to get to Made Man and suddenly decided to rogue or jump ship. I mean usually if a leader is going to use you for your money you would have a general idea within a week.

Well that is what I was wondering. I agree to some extent that respect is lacking but I think the importance of loyalty has also gone to the wayside a long time ago. Is this due to an increase of unhappiness do you think?

Negi: I disagree. We were given brains to think with. I would expect people to think before they joined their leaders as to where they would best fit in. No one should blindly join someone without knowing a little bit and thinking it over. At least that is my opinion.

I think with a brain you can still be loyal to your leader without following stupidly along. However if following along without an opinion is your thing, then by all means to each their own.

GabrielBonanno: I appreciate your input. Thank you.

MikeHunt: May I ask why you feel loyalty hasn't been around often? Do you feel there are specific causes why people are inclined to be less loyal from your perspective?

BettyPaige: In answer to the questions you posed. I would move on. Loyalty does have to be earned and if your crewleader has no interest in their loyal subjects then they quite frankly are no longer worth working for.

McLuvin: I wasn't pinpointing any particular past person or bloodline. This is a topic I think about regularly and I had questions so I asked them. Simple. It's not a matter of one particular war or incident either. It embraces a wider range.

I may be black and white with my loyalty but I still believe if you are Made Man you had best be dying with the crewleader that you are with. Do I necessarily think that Godfather as well? Maybe. It would really depend on the situation because not all Godfathers interact with every member in their city/district. Those that do, of course would have more loyalty given to them rather than the ones that keep to their own families and just the crewleaders they have put up. If I was no longer happy and loyal to them it would make sense to seek out a coffin and move onto someone you could be loyal to and grow as a mobster.

Zephyra: Is this due to an increase of unhappiness do you think?

 Overall unhappiness with the game? or unhappiness within each crew? I think after the May war there were alot of people left feeling unhappy, some more-so than others. While the majority were able to suck it up and move on, many weren't. But unfortunately the majority go unnoticed, they sit there, happy and loyal and get no thanks for it. (Well they do, especially if they have a good CL, but its less common). The unhappy people want to do something about it, which in this world of ours, if you want to get noticed. This either means alot of hard work to get your name set in stone, or a quick brief bad move that gets everyone talking about you, your fives minutes of fame. because that's all it is, five mins and your forgotten again like yesterdays newspaper. So these unhappy people, go against the word of omerta, showing themselves to be un-loyal trying to run the life of a single person, (Or in the case of Bg shooting, there is no particular target, just someone wanting to cause trouble). This may cause 2 mins of happiness (for teh lolz) of the shooter, but ultimately leaves in alot of annoyed people who are worse off for no good reason. So perhaps the unhappy people are making everyone else unhappy as well? Sharing is caring i guess.

Zephyra: but I could blame them if they stuck around to get to Made Man and suddenly decided to rogue or jump ship.

I agree with you here, i suppose my words were narrow minded towards only one situation, not a general consensus of the world we live in. Made man is earned, hopefully through loyalty (but sometimes through money). So if a Made man or above was to go rogue, this disrespect proves them to be of the most un-loyal kind. Even if there is some outside reason you must leave this world of ours, that is not a good excuse for someone to rogue, a loyal person would have a quiet word with their CL and explain they need to retire, but again, this does not go noticed by anyone else in the world of ours, so some think 'Fuck yeah, lets rogue and fuck shit up, go out fighting like a champion'. When in reality, it just makes you look like a muppet, and also makes your CL look like a fool for putting trust in you.

MikeHunt: Loyalty. Something that hasn't been around too often lately in my view.

You share a similar opinion to myself, you also mention the may war, do you think this has a direct affect on loyalty recently? I applaud your comment of saying you can move on from that, i think most people have by now but some surely havent.

McLuvin: One can't really judge it as a total group.

I suppose you've hit the nail right on the head here, this cant be discussed as the total population, everyone is loyal for different reasons, and everyone have differing amount of loyalties. Whilst being loyal to one person you are most likely being disloyal to another. You mention ThomasAnderson, well what about WideAwake? This was a huge show of disloyalty towards their crewleader and city, which affected the hearts of many people on these shores. These are not isolated events, they happen every day, sometimes big, some times small. Just because it doesnt reach the streets it doesnt mean its not going on.

Zephyra there are things that make people change their views of people and overall affect their loyalty. These things though are generally personal to everyone but sometimes they leave such a huge impact that everyone dislikes or loses their loyalty for the same person. I think Miss BettyPaige's response would be the best example of this. My bloodline was in the same war but on opposite sides than BettyPaige's mother. 

To this day I didn't know the full explanation of why certain people didn't like that certain Godfather she spoke about, but now I can understand. 

Mr. BrickTop I do think this has a direct affect on loyalty recently. I honestly think that people know have the idea that going down with the ship isn't always the best route. Like the consequences aren't as severe for their next bloodline if they decide to jump ship. The idea of jumping ship is the biggest kick in the balls, I honestly don't know how some people can ever be trusted again. But then again, their are some circumstances like Miss Paige mentioned in her own story.

People do need to move on from the war, including myself in some ways.

Zephyra, as I said in my first comment, I believe that I am really pretty good for giving people chances. So if there is no bloodline history, if I don't know the bloodline history, then I'll happily give someone a chance, because.. where would any of us be if we didn't have someone to give us a chance in the beginning?

However, with that said, I do believe that there are some bloodlines prone to fucking up over and over and over again, and with the safety of my crew in mind, I would prefer it if I could keep them, say, at least a country mile away from my crew. If they were somebody I got to know though, somebody I came to believe wouldn't screw me about, I'd probably give them a chance even then.

First off, Orithiya agrees with me?!?!?!

Waits for world to end.

No? Well,fuck. Moving on.

Betty,  I am actually on your side and am actually agreeing with you. I did not find the acts of your mother to be disloyal.In the least. I found the decision to act one that was well within her bounds to make as the Godmother of a district.

Zephyra,

McLuvin: I wasn't pinpointing any particular past person or bloodline. This is a topic I think about regularly and I had questions so I asked them. Simple. It's not a matter of one particular war or incident either. It embraces a wider range.

Yes, I do realize that. I just felt that the two people who spoke before me made references to the war and I felt obliged to weigh in.

I may be black and white with my loyalty but I still believe if you are Made Man you had best be dying with the crewleader that you are with. Do I necessarily think that Godfather as well? Maybe. It would really depend on the situation because not all Godfathers interact with every member in their city/district. Those that do, of course would have more loyalty given to them rather than the ones that keep to their own families and just the crewleaders they have put up. If I was no longer happy and loyal to them it would make sense to seek out a coffin and move onto someone you could be loyal to and grow as a mobster.

Well.....  I don't really see how I could grow as a mobster after seeking out a coffin... Elucidate maybe?

BrickTop:

" Overall unhappiness with the game? or unhappiness within each crew?"

Do you think if one is overall unhappy with this thing of ours that it can affect how happy they are within their crew? If people are just doing things fo 2 mins of fame then I would say the chances are that they are loyal to their crewleader or district is slim to none.

MikeHunt: I understand. I was just curious if you had thought that there were particular reasons but you are correct. Not everyone is the same in their thoughts or perceptions of events which will affect how they react in regards to their loyalty.

Ziva: Thank you for clarifying and answering my questions. I do appreciate it. We may not be of like mind in some aspects but I can respect how you would want to keep trouble from your crew as I believe most crewleaders would feel the same.

McLuvin: Maybe it wouldn't make specifically you grow as a mobster but it could help your next of kin better themselves and grow. Of course this would depend on circumstances and what you yourself would feel best. If you no longer feel loyal to the person you work under then I would question what the point of remaining there would be.   Does that help to clarify what I was referring to?

I should mention that when I said what I said about unquestioning loyalty, I was talking about something I really can't remember now.  I'm sure it was something worthwhile though.  Thinking is fine, of course.  We are not the Manson Family.  Just keep it to yourself if you think someone might want to whack you over it.