Henri, my point was that being truthful is irrelevant. It's a lose-lose for people.

The paranoia is there regardless of how truthful people are on their shot reports. If your from a fringe bloodline, or someone who just wants to start anew, you can be truthful - show people you are building a gun - and get shot. Or you can lie - have them check their sheet - and get shot.

Now, I know this is sort of a weird paradox but removing w/s will at least make Crew Leaders and Hit Squad leaders speak to their members a little bit more. It will also add a little mystery and intrigue to the world which i feel like is sorely needed.

Ok, a couple of things you've said there that aren't true, Rainmaker.

The reason we get statements sent to Disorder directly is because some little scamps started sending up false witness statements of "Grin/Fitz is a dickhead" 1000 times and making up other mean names too. Pretty amusing but not exactly helpful.

And, whilst I have always been pretty open about people who don't get vouched for being killed, you can absolutely use every feature of the game and I didn't say anywhere that someone couldn't. The example I gave was deliberately simplistic to illustrate the point. However, if someone in my crew hasn't earned my trust, isn't pulling their weight and is a potential threat, is it unreasonable for me to remove them? I don't think it is. 

Falkor, that isn't true either. You won't be shot unless you don't earn trust. Plenty of people are being honest and being given new opportunities. I have several in my crew right now from previously "blacklisted" bloodlines who are being given opportunities. 

I do however think this suggestion would probably do more harm than good and encourage more of the "paranoia".

I do however think this suggestion would probably do more harm than good and encourage more of the "paranoia".

Good. I mean whole groups of people are killed right now for no reason bar paranoia so its not like it will get much worse.

The only difference by implementing this idea is that catching people building guns will be made all the more difficult.

I'm all for the idea.  

However, one of the current checks on a lot of people is that "they aren't shooting".

This would remove that check which keeps a lot of people alive 

It's things like that quote that add to the fire here. Parsing words maybe, but the its the implication!

It's nebulous but I'm still not clear on what 'earn trust' means anymore. Shooting your gun efficiently seems like the fastest way to 'not earn trust' from what we've seen. 

I would just tend to think that this would extend some mystery to the game. Spreading the 'paranoia' to all people would be good in my opinion. Maybe force people to put some more effort into learning about members, Crew Leaders...maybe do some more research on your enemies.

I know you are speaking about your own crew - and I don't doubt that you're being truthful. I think you're the exception and not the rule though. Again, you're the only one who comes to the forums to even try to have an honest conversation.

I just see a lot of generalisation from people that misses the mark, which is why I like to offer a different narrative as with this place, perception very quickly becomes reality.

However, you do raise valid concerns and I think rather than hijack the suggestion any further I'll address them elsewhere. 

"Good. I mean whole groups of people are killed right now for no reason bar paranoia so its not like it will get much worse.

The only difference by implementing this idea is that catching people building guns will be made all the more difficult"

real good point

I do however think this suggestion would probably do more harm than good and encourage more of the "paranoia".

Truth be told, I'm actually pretty sure he's right here. Because I wouldn't put it past this group to take every member's gun away every other day in order to ensure they aren't training. Each crew becomes a fucking concentration camp. You'll be killed for not earning enough (you must have been keeping some for yourself to buy MIAs!). You'll be killed for being too old (he might have been going 12/day!). Or you will never be allowed to own a gun and the whole wack feature becomes unavailable (something I was told could never happen, ever). YOU VILL EARN AND ZE VERK SHALL SET YOU FREE.

The short answer is, this is the logical conclusion of the game's code in its current state. The top can stay there indefinitely. Just because past regimes couldn't do it doesn't mean it's impossible. They have the ability to stop anyone from training at any time with no consequences. As long as no member of the group starts to care too much about the game or its players, they stay on top.

Eventually the only players left will be the ones who earn/post/gamble EXCLUSIVELY and are willing to forfeit their gun at any time and the members of the regime- who now only have threats in 1% rogues.

The game needs to be changed fundamentally if you want this system to become obsolete. I don't care how many times I have to say it, but it's systemic. You cannot build a game that relies on the players to behave decently. They will use every tool at their disposal to stay at the top, often at the expense of the game.

Whilst I've not heard of cases where members have been killed for not earning enough I have heard of punishments being imposed for it, I've also heard of crew leaders recently removing the guns of everyone they don't trust, especially during rogue incidents so that they can't possibly do anything even if they had no intention in the first place. 

However by and large the majority of what you say rings true.

I kill people for not earning enough, so you can add that to your list of hatred if you want. Although why any mob boss would sponsor people not earning for them is a bit of a mystery to me. 

I would suggest instead, removing the limit on using the shooting range and allow users to continue to use it through the life of their account.  Development would be slower, but would achieve the upside listed in the original suggestion, without rocking the status quo too much. Users can then be given the option of training at this slower pace and remain under the radar, or speed their development by choosing to use MIAs.  Perhaps, after a user has maxed their gun, the range will become a credit-only option to avoid cannibalizing MIA sales.

As an aside - lifting the cap on using the range would incidentally complement the daily rewards system being put in place, given the longer investment in training time.

My only issue here is why are you equating how you guys run the place with the addition of game mechanics? I don't feel one way or the other about the "Regime" as we seem to be calling it these days, but this is absolutely ridiculous. 

I try to look objectively at all suggestions, however for context, Squishy said yesterday that revenues for the game are worryingly low and we need a quick fix. Therefore, I think how a change affects the current climate is paramount.

I just disagree that you say, I'm paraphrasing of course, "I used to be in favor of this, and every valid point that was made is still valid. However if this is implemented we at the top will probably be pissing off more of those at the bottom" 

I don't see what's objective about that.

Also +1 for the suggestion if only for the fact I don't have to check 2 other lists of personals everytime shit happens.

LARRY!!!! 

I kill people for not earning enough.....

You might want to include that in the "new member orientation packet" 

This isn't the place I should learn this! I am in your fucking crew afterall!