I'm not out here to show off my clothes or to smoke; I'm neither a peacock, nor a chimney. I don't have a craving for caffeine, nor do I care to get drunk at this time in the day. I do, however have thoughts, expectations and opinions, so I'm out here for a debate... a spirited debate about the spineless few who walk amongst us.

The ones I speak of are the aged mobsters who have sat idly by whilst their crews have been torn apart. Hiding from the assassins gun, watching as their friends and family have been executed. These are the people who tuck tail and run to the safety and protection of their attackers' cities and crews - not for reasons of vengeance, but out of cowardice and self-preservation.

Are these really the people who deserve to be the right hand of a Chicago GFC, or a CL running his own crew out of Vegas?

Said RHM even has a list of the crews she's been in, which have been felled - pinned to her suit, yet this mobster has shown no tendencies to revenge her fallen "peeps", even during the skirmish which claimed the lives of her brethren! Whereas the CL has fairly recently been seen gloating about being the oldest and least active mobster in the country... and these are now some of the most influential people in the country?

Is inactivity and spinelessness really the kind of traits we find desirable in our elite, or is it just the case that the people in real power empower these slugs so that they can rest easy at night, safe in the knowledge that the spineless yes-men don't have the knowledge, or the ability to effect real change?

I guess it's easier to sleep when you surround yourself with obedient rats and concentrate on killing the kin of folk with some actual ability instead of improving the landscape though, right?

I'd argue survivability is one of the greatest qualities a crew leader can possess, or one of any leadership as it pertains to this debate. One must have a balance of selfless tendencies and selfish wants and actions. One who is too selfless is as a sheep that walks unknowingly off a cliff without picking its head up to see where it's walking while it eats. One who is too selfish is susceptible to becoming a hermit without any sort of outside connections or those willing to take a bullet for them or those willing to work with/for them. 

I commend said Right Hand for being able to move on without taking the business of this life personally. It's a commodity, it seems, to find one able to do such a thing and I see that as valuable rather than a vice as you seem to view it. Not to mention, a sort of spinelessness is needed in a cutthroat career such that we find ourselves in. 

There's a saying that I know that goes as such, "Never outshine the master." Being a role of a 'Yes-Man' is a strategic one. In the shoes of a CL, whom out of two associates would you be quicker to auth? One who is always down for whatever plans or ideas for the future you have, or one who disagrees with you at every chance that shows itself? It's the one who agrees and, despite if they harbor disagreements with the overall idea, will still work towards realizing that goal. To suggest that people who disagree deserve more merit than those who don't is silly. 

It's wise for one to play the perfect 'courtier', so to speak. Playing the role of perennial 'no-man' punches a one-way ticket to perennial associateship and perhaps a nice home 6-feet under the earth... Leaders don't like being constantly questioned. 

As far as those who tend to isolate themselves in their apartments or mansions or what have you; There are two laws of power I want to reference: "Use Absence to Increase Respect and Honor" and "Do not build Fortresses to protect yourself--Isolation is dangerous". Seemingly contradicting statements, yes? However, retracting yourself some a group or from public appearance can show an increase in enigmatic outlooks upon one's reputation. Too much of this can prove to be dangerous as unpredictability isn't always a sought after quality. 

I'm not, however, saying the authing of the suggested CL was a brilliant move. His//Her pattern of isolationism didn't just start when he/she was granted a crew. It was a pattern prior to. Suggesting this isn't anything more than just a bad habit. But that shouldn't take away from whatever he/she may have to contribute to the city as a whole. It's been a short amount of time, we need more evidence before we can say it was a worthless experiment. 

Louis stood by, appreciating the words of Dub. Such a response needed to be admired. He didn't however add to the discussion himself, as he didn't think the homeless man would live long enough to warrant it.

Such was the case of the thug ranter, who'd rather throw around shite from the safety of no consequences to follow. Death, sure. But a man who had something to live for had more to offer. These thoughts trickled through Louis' mind, as he puffed on a lucky strikes cigarette.

After moments upon moments of smoking like a chimney, he flicked up the collar on his second hand cream coloured jacket. And left. Off for some coffee, or at the very least a nip of whiskey.

Interesting points Dub. There is value to some of the points you've raised, certainly. However, as I said - I'm out for a debate, so I'll play the role of Devil's advocate for a while longer.

Whilst I agree that survivability is a selfish and somewhat essential trait, I'm also of the mind that putting lap dogs in positions of power is what creates tyrants. Without the checks and balances that an advisor with an independent mind brings, any leader can become drunk with omnipotent power - and that's when paranoia rears it's ugly head. Nobody wants that again.

Nope, as far as I'm concerned, the hand of a Godfather should be able to voice their opinions, thoughts and concerns to their Godfather. If not, then why sit in an advisors role? What do you add if you're not challenging the man nobody else is entitled to question?

As for 'moving on' following the destruction of 7 prior families, again - is that really what we want? A hand being unable or unwilling to engage their attackers? Sure - when vengeance spans generations, that attitude becomes poisonous, but watching your friends and family being killed 7 times without firing one single retaliatory shot? That seems more like cowardice as opposed to self-preservation for the good of the country, but who am I to say? I just call 'em like I see 'em.

Like I said Dub - you've certainly raised some interesting points, which is far more than Louis the mute mouth breather managed to do, so I commend you on your rebuttal.

For conversation sake, I think a fair question to raise would be "When did betrayals become the norm? And when were they rewarded for a lack of loyalty?"

This would come around to the standards or ethics our community holds in high esteem and perhaps loyalty is just not one of those anymore?

An interesting question Kamryn. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that either of the examples I have pointed out have gone so far as to betray their previous crews, but loyalty is certainly something which appears to have been lost around these parts. "Blood in, blood out" seems to be the ethos of a bygone era.

Nowadays, age and the ability to avoid engaging assailants who have executed your whole crew seem to dictate seniority far more readily than loyalty does, which brings me back around to the question - why? Is it just the case that leaders like to surround themselves with weakness these days, or is the spirit and 'honor' dying out?

I couldn't begin to start with the why's. I do think its valid to question it though as it is a very noticeable change or pattern that has come about. I wish you luck in finding the answers.

For the record, Yawn, one of those crews in Lucy's suit dissolved as a result of a crew leader retiring, and I believe at least 2 as a result of interference from the gods. My predecessor was tossed around to at least 4 crews (so many that I lost track), but it was never due to a situation like the one you've described.

As for exacting revenge: thing thing of ours, as we all know, is really keeping one's motivations concealed and biding one's time.

I do agree with what Dub has said to the extent that what this world comes down to is what you are and are not capable of. If you can politic well enough to be spared extermination, so be it. If you lead a *successful* coup, good on you for being smart and skilled enough to seize power.

That being said, Lucy's directly expressed in more ways than one that she's willing to sacrifice her life for her family. If you knew her better, you would know better than to use a word like spineless, so I'm not sure where this is coming from.

Dog, I know better and I would still use the word.

Well, it's easier said than done. I've lost plenty of friends over the years that I didn't have the power to avenge.

To put it simply; it's a dog eat dog world out there. Kill or be killed. If you become made or think you have what it takes to run a crew of your own, you must take the responsibilities and the consequences that come with it. It's a package deal. 

I don't know why things happened the way they did, but I'm sure the decisions to end the said crew were not made overnight. Of course, we can voice our opinion, but it isn't going to make things any better. It's not going to bring the said crew back to life. It's not going to give you some magical explanation of why things happened the way they did. What's done is done.

Learn from what happened, adapt to it, improve yourself, and move on to bigger and better things.

Simplejon, I get the feeling that you feel I'm the aggrieved kin of a recent take-down? Sorry to disappoint you, but that simply isn't the case. My line has intentionally remained homeless over the last few weeks, with the hope that there would be a worthy crew leader stepping up. Unfortunately, that is yet happen as far as I'm concerned. The current crop seem too busy making sure they're surrounded by ineptitude to even bother agreeing a universal set of rules. These are not crews or cities I wish to be a part of.

Dog, so you're saying that Lucy has chosen a leader who has actively broken the laws the Gods have set forth, with more than 25% of the crews she's chosen? Doesn't that kinda tell it's own story? That she's either choosing to crew with immoral crew leaders, or her judgement is so poor that she keeps making the same mistake, over and over again?

As far as the other 4 crews go, well - like I said; it's pretty spineless to run and hide in the city your crews' assailants originated from, then take a hand position. Perhaps my standards are higher than yours though - I still believe that a mobster should defend and/or avenge their fallen family; especially at the ripe old age she has managed. I guess that's archaic thinking around here though...

"Ah yes, how dare people reach dizzying heights, grow bored and find other things to do rather than grace our streets. How dare people assume positions of power, and then secure in that power fuck off for a bit because its all just a bit of sport to them." she rolled her eyes towards the heavens, silently pleading for strength and wisdom to deal with the bafoons who wander their streets crying fouls whilst doing nothing to better the world themselves.

"It is so easy to cast the blame when you yourself have nothign to lose, isn't it? Your very name is a symbol of boredom, nothingness and all that jazz. While I applaud someone coming to the streets to speak some harsh truths, I feel it'd be better coming from someone, and pardon me and my 20 minutes here on the shore self but I do have some wisdom in these things, who actually mattered."

She gave a little sheepish shrug as if to say, "Hypocricy is fine and dandy, but who is going to listen to you if you mean nothing to them." which was quite a bit to convey through a shrug but she did it none the less because she was if nothing bloody brilliant at communication.

No, Yawn I'm the first generation. Obviously, you have a clear vision of what a crew leader should do and how they should act or what they should say. Why don't you manage a crew of your own and show us how it's done. Show us how easy it is to manage a whole crew, a whole district, even a whole city. How easy it is to keep everyone in your city safe. If you have the answers to everything, you must show me the way. I love to learn. It makes me better, not bitter.

so you're saying that Lucy has chosen a leader who has actively broken the laws the Gods have set forth, with more than 25% of the crews she's chosen? Doesn't that kinda tell it's own story? 

Not when over half of the Crew Leaders, at the time, were struck down... And they were struck down all at once; they were staggered which allows for something like that to happen.  

That she's either choosing to crew with immoral crew leaders

Let's not pretend like we're all priests and priestess'. We're all immoral and flock together. The people she crewed with were some of the most powerful at the time before each of their untimely ends. Props to Ms. Lucy for being able to survive all the smiting and acting as a chameleon of sorts; able to blend in anywhere and be placed into positions of power. She's an obvious people person and shows great motivation and passion for this life. Why shouldn't she be widely respected? From what I hear she's a first generation, as well. 

It sounds like she's a heck of a mobster. I'd venture to say one of the closest things to a full package out of all of us. I'm not gonna fault her from not dying with her crew.

It's my unpopular opinion that if you have a choice between living after your crew is wiped, that you should do that. Live. The spirit of the crew dies with you if you're the last one. Your ability to properly live for your crew, your ability to let your training from that crew shine past it's expiration date; isn't that true glory for your former crews? Dying in a hail of lead does nothing for your past crew... Am I wrong in thinking this? Everyone always says, go down with your crew. But I'd encourage people to survive if they can. Fold in with someone else's crew and learn. Become a Crew Leader yourself and never forget where you came from. Don't forget those that died so you can have a position of power. 

Maybe I'm crazy, but if I were a CL and my RHM or LHM had the chance to live, I'd tell them to do whatever they have to... And if they made it to a CL position, I'd be honored and thoroughly impressed with their abilities to adapt. 

There's nothing wrong with Lucy's past that led to this moment. She's done everything brilliantly and maneuvered however she had to to be accepted and trusted in each of her crews.  

I find it slightly humorous how easily we throw aside loyalty in this community lately. Would you not someone to actually fight by your side? If you were a leader would you not want to know that your hands would do what they could to protect your family if you were unavailable? Rather than just thinking of themselves?

I have to admit that perhaps our community is slipping on the things that should be important and conceding to things that many would frown upon previously.

Adapting is one thing, going through so many families and only caring about yourself is quite the opposite. Perhaps a little more thought should be given to things such as rank and position. Rather than a person just being available at the time. In our community there are people who are promoted just because they are available at the time. Not because they did anything special or even anything good. Not because they actually earned it. These are not people to pat on the back. These people did nothing. Proved nothing. But for some strange reason are given everything.

Personally, I have a lot more respect for the people who are actually loyal. Show their loyalty and put up a bit of a fight for their family. Those are the people that truly gave a damn about their families in the first place.

Maybe one needs to know when to call it a loss? Unless I have a hand who has the gun and maxed BGs to wipe out the entire game to avenge the crew, I'm not asking for them to put their necks on the line for a lost cause if my crew is wiped. What sense does that make? It's like saying, if I were a CL, "Well dang, I died, EVERYONE DIE FOR ME!" I don't need you to prove loyalty to a dead man. I don't expect you to. And if all hope is lost, do what you need to survive. You're confusing my statement for me thinking it's okay for associates to care about themselves over the family for purely ulterior motives. No, that's not what I'm saying. Family should always come first when the family EXISTS. But so goes the CL, so goes the family as in the moment immediately after the CL's death, they are not considered associates. 

While the crew exists, I expect nothing but loyalty. But when bullets are flying and leadership is dead, and the associates are running around like headless chickens, so to speak, then I'd want them to find a home. Expecting all associates to go down with the ship because the ship is your baby is extremely selfish. 

I'm not saying I want people to just sit idly by in a war, but if it looks grim, do what you need to do to survive once the Crew Leader passes.

Remember when LincolnOsiris retired to save his crew? Do you frown upon his members for not fighting? I'd hope not because Lincoln was noble enough to understand that making associates fight and die for a losing cause was foolish and selfish...

NakedsAdvenge spots the cops and sprints back to hide behind the dumpster. He processes the words he heard from the locals.  As soon as NakedsAdvenge saw the coast was clear, he re-joined the gathering. When the crowd fell silent, he decided to speak out.

Politics govern our lives. Like it or not, it is real. The backbone of politics are corruption, bribery and comprising. Politics do not have their loyal in mind. Unless the loyal are first generation and even then politics can be quite sticky. 

NakedsAdvenge hears the sirens. Catches the glimpse of the blue lights and dashes for the nearest ally