What is your idea?

Posting guidelines should be changed to include invite-only role play scenes.

Has your idea already been suggested in some form or another before?

Not that I was able to find.

What does your idea entail?

A new posting guideline would be created which allows players to take part in role play scenes with a set cast of characters.

How can your idea be successfully implemented into the game as it stands?

An additional guideline can be added to the posting guidelines which reads - "Any post containing the word(s) 'Closed' or 'Invite Only' is open only to a pre-determined cast of characters.  If you have not be invited to join a scene with those words in the subject, your post would be considered spam and subject to clean up by Street Sweepers.

What major changes would be needed to make your idea work?

An additional posting guideline would need to be written and added to the existing posting guidelines, and the site would need to be informed/educated about this change.  Likely street sweepers might get a bit more work reading/deleting.

What is the positive impact of your idea?

It would prevent players from writing 'in-character' spam on the Streets where moderators normally don't delete posts, so long as they are written in a style which appears 'in character' no matter how nonsensical they are. 

For example, as the rules currently stand these posts are perfectly acceptable and would NOT be moderated:   

1. Page five of a heist thread.  The climax of a scene you and your friends worked on for two weeks.  A huge shoot-out with the enemy.  I could come in an post myself scratching my ass, eating a bowl of cereal, and talking about today's race odds RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIRE FIGHT.
2. Page two of a romance thread.  Two characters alone in an office are locked in an embrace.  Even though their story has established there are guards on the door and no way in or out, I could write my character sitting in the corner giving a play-by-play commentary on a baseball game which is playing on the radio (one I wrote into the scene wasn't there before.)

Basically, anyone can post ANYWHERE in the streets, anything they want (no matter how nonsensical) so long as it's written in an in-character style.  It doesn't even have to make sense... example: 
 

"I like jam and buffaloes are good."  I said while picking my nose.  "Toads."

Right now, because what I said in that box is totally something you MIGHT say in 1930s RP, it would not be moderated if a random person inserted it into your RP looking to gain vision/exp/durden mapping perk by getting onto the VIP board.  No work in writing the post has to occur, no time in reading previous posts has to happen - as it stands our posting guidelines allow griefers to post whatever they want on the 1930s boards so long as it's loosely in character.

I don't know about you, but seeing crap like that appearing in posts all over the streets simply because people CAN, would kinda annoy the crap out of me.

What is the negative impact of your idea?

People who are seriously into RP very rarely just jump into scenes they don't have a reason to be in.  So, for those of us who are following the spirit of the rules already; I don't see much change.  Though I promise someone will probably mention that will somehow discourage RP.

How may your idea affect the rest of the userbase?

Griefers will have less entertainment and people looking to exploit the spirit of the rules will have less of an ability to do so.

In full support of this, but also its why street sweepers was invented, to clean up the streets, but... I see a lot of posts like the one you mentioned above.

I am not in support of this.

Majority of people already stay out of roleplays that seem to have a predetermined set of people involved in it. I really don't think this is necessary.

Great Cherry then you wouldn't mind going by this thread:  https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/1093565/page2#newest and sweeping up Brand's post for me?

Squishy if we write in the back alley does that contribute to VIP standings in each city while we're writing it?  If not, it can sometimes take weeks to complete an RP and if we're all writing in back alley, then our cities are suffering from that.

Also, I've heard that if it takes too long to move a post from back alley to the streets, there is no exp/vision whatever benefits for the writers, is that so?  If it is, can we know how long we have to write/move a post and still get credit for it?

The thing is, we can work around the current guidelines but why should authentic people who are following the rules have to adjust their behaviors because of griefers?  That's just my way of seeing it.

I guess I'm failing to see (and if there is one, please share it, I honestly want to know and can admit it if I'm off base... I've done it before) what is the downside of adding this additional posting guideline?  In my mind it helps your RPers to feel happy and keeps them posting in the streets which is what people claim they want to see more of (not less.)

+1

It's thankfully not the case, that most people lack the common sense to understand when a story is open to everyone or just a group of friends. Or simply feel compelled to disturb stories with an RP speech that adds nothing to it, simply to grab a little bit of XP.

I would go further with the suggestion, in that if it would be possible for the Devs to add a "Thread Type" when creating a Thread, where these rules are enforced by the server instead of manual moderation. Allowing the thread creator to manage who can or can't reply. But I think that for now the guideline enforced rule would be perfect.

This is awesome idea

Closed RPs were terrible when they were around, all it served to do was close out people. Why go through all of the trouble to add a new addition for a problem that only crops up once every couple of months and is easily ignored whenever it does happen? I don't see how this game would imrpove at all from an addition that would add even more exclusivity to the most elitist part of the game already, roleplaying.

In full agreement with Eros; I couldn't have said it better.

Wow, okay, let me just say this - I'm #2 on the VIP board and have been a pretty active RP'er in general.  If someone wants to RP with me - all they have to do is ask and either I'll find a place for them to join me or I'll write something new for us to tell a story in!  It's never been my experience that role-players exclude people ... but maybe that's happened outside of circles I've usually run in or before I came?

Eros, if you've ever had an interest in RP - I'd love to have you on an RP... and you too Briya!  It's my experience that elitists don't write classes to teach their part of the game to others, create crews with the sole purpose of promoting their aspect of the game, and don't go out of their way to recruit new people into rps (all of which have happened since I've joined the site seven months ago.)

So, if there is an issue with RP being elitist that's definitely something we should address immediately and try to find a resolution to as well.  It's my fear that by running off writers to the back alley to avoid griefers that you make RP less accessible to those who aren't already involved in it.

FYI - the Messina family still remains open to anyone who wants to have family ties to other RP'ers!  You don't need to be in the same crew to join us... just be related by blood!  :)  https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/1063625#169476910

Also - I'll be hosting another RP chat event coming up soon so be watching for that.  It's a great way for newer players to try their hand at RP and we'd love everyone of all skill levels to join us as we did last Thanksgiving.

I mean, all I'm saying is imagine the streets with CLOSED RP back.

Imagine being completely new and maybe you want to give roleplaying a try, all you see is [CLOSED] [MEMBERS OF X ONLY] all over the Streets. Now you may not want to give it a try anymore because it seems extra intimidating now, so this heals one problem and possibly creates a new one in its stead that could possibly be much larger.

It's a solution to a problem that isn't exactly rampant and may just cause more problems is basically all I'm saying. Also, roleplay isn't elitist so much as it is that I've seen people take roleplaying too far and push people out from giving it a try. I've seen people get yelled at for using the wrong type of gun in a business district thread, I've seen people get told they're not acting in a mafia enough way, maybe you've never done this but its definitely something that has happened on this very game in the past.

That's all I really meant about that, I did not mean any offense to you in particular. Maybe I was too harsh to someone who has been nothing but (from what I've seen) kind and wanting to make RP grow, but in my opinion this will do the exact opposite as it had the last time it was around. 

Thank you for your letter and responses Eros.  I appreciate your well-written reply and you should know that while I noted some of the things I've done to promote RP in the past - there have been a long list of people on the site helping RP since I arrived and before.  I'll take a moment to recognize a few because, I rarely have the occasion to pat good people on the back so... what the hell. 

• Cesare had a crew dedicated to roleplay and I know he was very passionate about it - he and all his crew.
• Few have done so much for the RP community as Nikki Swango who was once called 'The People's CL' a name that was well and truly deserved.
• The Kid always promoted his Blue Note Label being in the streets and they were riddled with talent. 
• TammyGato was rocking when I first got here and I felt incredibly welcomed as an RP'er because of her. 
• Vivian Ward wrote some great stuff in her time and also reached out to me as a new person.
• Pollution's stories were mind blowing - like watching something out of the godfather and got me excited to play here. 
• Husky Radhe and Ester were all over the boards and kicking ass with writing and looping in people who didn't yet have a group to whom they felt close with - their business up in Detroit still see visitors. 
• There was RP Inc not a long time before I joined and the RAWR resources are still shared all over the place. 
• Roger Coniglio and Jessica Coniglio both wrote like they were creating books and never turned folks away so far as I know and they were a great example of kick ass writing talent.
• Good lord and what about Capazzo's organized RPs?  The Chicago 5 became 7 became 10 before he was ALWAYS willing to loop in 'just one more person' into his heists! 
  
  
  And these are just the ones that immediately came to mind... I'm sure if I thought about it for a few hours, I'd have MUCH a longer list.

While all of those people were AMAZING and welcoming and great... FEW, if any, opened up their RPs and was like "just jump on in!"  There's normally a certain amount of planning that goes into RP (even if that's only 'hey guys let's ...')  It's not always just fly by the seat of your pants sorta thing (unless it's in the business district.)  So, I don't know that having "open" rp helps people jump in... but I do think you have a point that seeing "closed" in the titles of all the threads might give the impression that there is no place for a new player to get involved.

That being said...   writing in the back alley and moving finished rp out to the streets doesn't feel inviting either!  I mean, both allow players to exclude others who they don't want in their RP... so, how do you feel as a new player if

1. All the RP on the boards feels finished by the time you get there or
2. When you do post, a griefer comes in and just takes dump on your carpet (maybe literally) and that's something you either need to ignore or figure out how to roll with?

Another Possible Solution?

Maybe the solution isn't "closed" RP (because it's been tried and failed to have desired results in the past) but something else?  Since griefing happens so rarely, what if we just allowed for the streets to have the same tools as the business district (ie: You can remove someone if they are griefing.)  If not that, what if we had the same rules... ie: I can report someone griefing and the street sweepers would come in and take care of it for me?

My fear is the take away from doing NOTHING after we've discussed it, is that trolls up their games and we see a lot more of it because we've essentially said we're okay with it so long as it's not happening too often (though where the line is, isn't clear.)  Personally, my tollerance for people griefing each other in RP is very low - but for people who don't rp often, it could be high.  I know mileage varies here, but if we can find a reasonable fix to this irritant, would you support it?

I support making it easier for the roleplayers to police their threads, yes.

I just personally feel that the streets look a lot less inviting with CLOSED popping up everywhere, because as you said, most roleplays are done in the closed style. Call it psychological, but if I personally see a pre-written back alley thread then I usually appreciate it much more than a thread that's closed to everyone but a select few. It just makes the streets feel much less inviting overall and a lot more mechanical, but with that said, I think if people are posting in a thread just to mess around with those who are putting a lot of time and effort into it, then sure, those responses should count as spam and be treated as such.

A lot of people really don't care about RP, so I'm going to make my universal point before I move on to the RP particulars:

Non-RP point: There are more things that happen on the streets than just RPs. Giving someone more control of a street thread may be fantastic if I'm trying to RP robbing a casino and some asshole keeps getting in my way. But what if there's a controversial war or action that certain members of the public take exception to? Crewleader A publishes a bunch of fake logs (I know- who would lie about logs ever, right?) that shows Crewleader B has been up to some sketchy, immoral shit that justify taking them down. As a player, I have a major issue with Crewleader A being able to limit who participates in that street thread or moderate responses. I would prefer that things stay more free, even if they're messy.

RP points: 

I think this is a very interesting discussion; anything involving RP is near and dear to my heart. For what it's worth, here's my two cents:

My initial response was exactly the same as the one from Squishy: if you have something that can't be interrupted and you don't want to have to ignore something, then put it in a back alley. My major mechanics based question: Would an RP in a back alley thread written over the course of weeks and then moved to the streets still give the same mechanics reward as one written "live" in the streets? If there's no change in the mechanics for a back alley, I don't see an issue with the way things are currently constituted. 

I should be said, Frankie, that I entirely sympathize with your frustrations. I recently wrote what I'd hoped to be the first chapter of a longer narrative and had someone show up with a comment I really didn't think needed to be there. It happens, and it's frustrating when it does occur.

That being said, some of the best RPs I've ever had have been from people randomly inserting themselves into what I was doing. If it had been closed off, I might have missed out on that.

I can't speak for everyone on your list of RP contributors, but since I was listed under one of your bullet points I would disagree with your statement that "FEW, if any, opened up their RPs and was like "just jump on in!"" If I was writing something in the streets, the expectation was that anyone could jump in at any time. I cant' speak directly for others, but I would wager that the 3/4 other people I've written with on your list realized that the streets were something of a free for all. Personally, I may have had an idea of where I wanted something to go, but I obviously don't control everyone else's reactions. If I wanted to control the flow more, there were other venues to do that. 

Ultimately, my point boils down to this: what we have now is occasionally messy. Most things involving freedom usually are- but they're generally better than a closely policed alternative, at least when creativity is a concern. I'd be open to a more moderate reforms, but I'm very wary of the concept.

Responding to your other ideas/questions:

That being said...   writing in the back alley and moving finished rp out to the streets doesn't feel inviting either!  I mean, both allow players to exclude others who they don't want in their RP... so, how do you feel as a new player if

1. All the RP on the boards feels finished by the time you get there or
2. When you do post, a griefer comes in and just takes dump on your carpet (maybe literally) and that's something you either need to ignore or figure out how to roll with?

1. I don't think this would be the case, but I still think it would be more inviting then a bunch of overt "closed" labels. I think public forums should be for the public. If you want complete privacy, write through mail or an unpublished back alley. But receiving public recognition/rewards involves some sort of openness to the public, as we've already discussed with the increased control over back alley delayed publishing or being able to boot someone from business district.

2. Not to be too blunt about it, but yes. If a griefer comes in to try to ruin your fun, you can either try to get their post removed if it breaks the rules, acknowledge them IC (usually in a scathing way), or just pretend they aren't there. Pretending I'm a mobster is a far bigger leap than pretending some random shitpost isn't there. It's annoying- I agree 100%. But options that limit people from contributing to a public thread seem counterproductive to me.

My fear is the take away from doing NOTHING after we've discussed it, is that trolls up their games and we see a lot more of it because we've essentially said we're okay with it so long as it's not happening too often (though where the line is, isn't clear.)  Personally, my tollerance for people griefing each other in RP is very low - but for people who don't rp often, it could be high.  I know mileage varies here, but if we can find a reasonable fix to this irritant, would you support it?

I think most people would be open to reasonable fixes, but I'd rather see moderators given additional discretion over disruptive posts than players themselves. I'm just concerned about the potential for abuse. 

My stance on this is the same as Eros's. It would affect the human psychology and turn off people from role-playing.

Again I'd like to repeat that Eros made the point that 'closed' rp certainly makes people feel excluded and I think we all can see how that isn't the sort of feeling we want on the boards.  So I 100% support the idea that my proposed solution fails to hit the mark because of that very reasonable statement

But - I want to give a very large shout out to KateLogan for taking the time to break down her points of view.  I know I said something to you privately Kate, but it bears pointing out here that THIS is why we have these discussions.  It's very easy to shut down someone with a sentence or two - but by explaining your point of view (as Kate did) understanding and new solutions are sometimes discovered.

I have a lot to say about the things you wrote Kate, but the post got incredibly long and moved away from finding solutions for a problem and became a discussion about the state of RP and OC posting in our game rather than staying on topic... so I will save that for another time and place and instead close this with saying:  You are right.

In the end, freedom of players to interact is probably better than inhibiting natural interaction.  Does it incur problems from griefers and trolls - yes; but the alternative certainly doesn't seem attractive either.  You and the others who came here to explain your point of view, have won me over on this point.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

I did talk with Squishy in IRC last night about this topic and he's come up with a proposal about how posts will move from back alley to the streets which we hope will eliminate some of the worries about missing out on vision and such for the work that happens (sometime very slowly) out of the site of the collective site.  I don't know when those changes will go into effect or if they are set in stone (he may have been tossing around the ideas last night and not yet settled on them so I'll not comment on them at this time) but I hope to see them put into effect as they really do make a lot of sense and do resolve some of my concerns about posting in BA and moving at a later date.

As for the trolls I think Luke had a good solution on how to deal with them going forward and if not his solution I will do what I've always done from the beginning, I will attempt to ignore them or report them if their silliness crosses the line between occasional stupidity into ongoing harassment - at which time I would hope the admins/street sweepers would feel compelled to address it.

Once again - thanks for taking the time to share all your thoughts on these topics and, like I said, I may start a discussion in OoC about some of what was said here as it brings up some thoughts that bear further discussion (IMHO at least)

I'm biting my tongue  Frankie. Don't push me any further.