First of all let me start off by saying this... I am NOT complaining about being pickpocketed. I do NOT care about having a measly five thousand dollars taken from me. I can make more than that in ten petties, which takes less than an hour. So for those of you that may respond to this by asking me why I am crying over money being taken from my pocket, your responses will go ignored because I am going to assume that you have a hearing problem and are either in need of a hearing aid, or in need of someone to translate it in sign language for you.

As for what I do wish to speak about today. Yes it is about pickpocketing, but not because I care whether people are putting their hands in my pockets, but because I care that if I'm going to be forced, threatened, coerced and bullied into following a city rule that REQUIRES you to get WRITTEN permission from a person before you pickpocket them, then EVERYONE damn well needs to be required to follow that same rule.

I do NOT appreciate having my ass chewed out over a city rule that requires consent to pickpocket and not one hour later from receiving this ass chewing over people not getting the proper consent before violating other peoples pockets, getting my pocket picked in a city *shock gasp horror* that requires written permission beforehand, which was NOT obtained. But this person shall go unpunished in their law breakedness because I had forgotten to take my sunglasses off and the sun had already set so I could not see this persons face. Let me repeat, for those of you who may at this point be hard of hearing and or wanting to ignore the actual point of this rant.

I couldn't care less that they made off with my money. I couldn't care less about anyone sticking their hands in my pocket. I do care that they just got away with breaking a rule that I have had my ass chewed out over, even though I have not broken this rule. I do care that there are laws in place that won't necessarily apply to everyone because some people are much stealthier when they put their hands in someone's pockets than others might be. I do care that maybe one day I may forget the rule of a certain city and I may stick my hand in someone's pocket and they may catch me. I do care that said person may then go to their CL or the city head and complain that I didn't ask them first and then I will be punished. I do care that someone who could be just a little bit stealthier than I, could pick the same person's pocket, not be seen and go unpunished.

I won't be so bold as to suggest a solution to this problem, because really the only solution would be to do away with this rule, as it cannot be fully enforced. But it is not my place to suggest how others run their cities. I am only pointing out that this is a problem. It is a problem that someone's CL decide that someone who gets caught pickpocketing without written permission, should be punished, whether it be by restitution, civil service or even death, when others can just get away with it because they go unseen.

First of all let me say, its not my place to tell someone how to run their city. But I do have to agree with you here Cassiopeia. It would seem to me that enforcing such a rule would be a bigger headache and undertaking than should be necessary. The rule itself with me doesnt really sit right either.

I mean, taking it into context you are required to write a note to a person before you commit a crime against them. Is this in itself fair? Do we write similar notes to unwary Post Office attendants or managers of 7-11s we plan to rob. No we dont. Neither do we write similar notes to bums lying on the streets before asking their permission before we wack them.

Definately, we do need rules and we do live in a society where the breaking of a rule can sometimes mean the taking of your life. But how far should these rules go.

This whole issue of pickpocketing is one that demands a lot of debate. There are so many differing views and opinions around on the matter. Like is it really necessary to ask someone's permission before you try to rob them? where is the sense in that? Should it matter that they are carrying a poster on their back saying 'Please dont rob me'? In all honesty, if you dont want to be robbed, bank your money. Thats what the banks are for. Should the onus fall on me to read your poster and walk away just because your too lazy or too stupid to bank your money? Where does it stop?

Does this mean that if the bums on the street lay there with 'Please dont wack me' posters around their neck that they dont end up on the Inactive Lists? Surely not. But I digress.

This is one of those laws that will never really be able to be enforced. Some folks are masters at not being seen. They can sneak in and out like a ghost and relieve you of your precious funds. My advice, take the poster from around your neck and bank your money. This is the ONLY failsafe way NOT to be robbed.

I am a person who wears a tag asking only for message before hand, and the return of money after.  And even though I have this, I still continue to get pickpocketed multiple times a day without written consent or my money being returned.  I also want to make it clear that I'm not the type of person who will run to my leader with such silly problems like losing 5k to, most likely, and unidentified assailant.  Having said all of this...

I agree Cassiopeia, and being from the same family as you, Joey holds our members to the highest standards.  I'm not suggesting however that others do not, but I do know that many people do not follow the rules of each city and/or other mafiosos tags.  You bring up a very good point, there is definately a problem with pick pocketing.  And it may be because the lines are blurred as to which city has which rule, which people obey which rules, and what the punishment should be when caught breaking one of these rules.  It seems to me, as a whole, that all of these lines are blurred and therefore you have some families who strictly enforce these rules...while others do not.  You really can't have it both ways, like you said, either do away with the rules or set some stronger boundaries as to what should be done.

I agree with Cassiopeia's basic premise of the contradictions or the double standards. However, I have more complex personal views on the issue.

I think that this issu allows a level of complexity that the game actually benefits from. If we all do the same things and nothing creates conflict, then this would be a very boring world very quickly.

I don't buy into the examples of comparing PP'ing with killing bums and robbing post offices. In the former we are attacking other mobsters, in the latter we are attacking civilians. We are supposed to walk all over civvies and grease the hands of the authorities to get away with it, but who in their right mind thinks they are such bad asses that they can walk all over people in their same line of business and not having to eventually pay for it.

Having said that, if somebody is skilled enough that they can steal from me without me noticing, then kudos to him. He knows he's taking a chance. He knows that if he gets caught, he's in trouble, so I respect that. I can also work myself on getting my levels of protection higher (even if just by becoming a higher ranking mobster) if it bothers me that much. Or put my money in the bank often so they can't get much at all if any.

A valid point here Cassiopeia and i agree with you that some are clearly violating these rules and getting away with it and i recently had to punish a member who broke the said rule. In my opinion the rule is in place for a good reason and should be respected by all having said that i run with a PP friendly tag and only PP those who carry the same tag if someone has no tag or has a no PP tag then i respect that and dont PP them, there is no real solution to the problem you just got to hope that other people respect a persons wishes and if they do break the rule and get caught then they deserve any punishment that comes their way.

Death glides out onto the streets from his favourite dark and dank alleyway, causing Bums, shopkeepers and other would be peasants in times of yore to scatter in fear. Grabbing one by the scruff of the next he is about to stick his hand in the back of his head when he notices it is Furor, releasing the man, who in his abject tear releases something himself, Death tuts and glares at him before grabbing a Taxi driver unawares, as he emerges from a nearby Cafe.

Furor, pleassse ssstay out of my Alliesss, you are attracting unwanted attention from the authoritiesss with all your random murder and mayhem.

The Taxi driver's eyes sink into the back of his head and his mouth drops open in silent anguish as he dies and his body yields control to the Dark Judge.

I have to say Cassiopeia that I do not suffer from the same problem. I believe that it is mostly down to people being afraid to pick pocket me, knowing full well that they will either fail or end up handing more to me in an effort not to get beaten up. I agree with you as well that its not about the money, 5k or in the case of Alabama $161 is hardly worth my time or energy, but I still pick pockets. The reason for this is there is a certain amout of kudos involved. I can bypass your Guards, and your observation, and tou defences and lift your wallet. I'm not exactly the stealthiest of thieves though, so most are aware when I empty their pockets.

I always try to obey the rules though. Many cities require you to ask permission first, although i do not do this every time I pick a pocket, the reason being I already have agreement from the individual. Take the best Crew Leader and street boss in the world, Captain Stubbing. If I were to ask him every time I try to pick pocket him, he would soon grow to hate me even more than he already does. His Stealth is superior to my vision... they do not do glasses for corpses, so usually I Pick pocket him blind, and often I am right. Who needs Crew paydays when the Captain is so free and easy with his money? However, if he ever said that he'd had enough, that being Pick Pocketed by me 10+ times a weak had grown wearisome, then I would stop.

I look at people carefully. I try to see if they have anti-pick pocketing tattoo's on their person, and if so I try to leave them well alone. If I have never asked before, I try my best to ask the person's permission first if the city rules require it. I've never understood these marking though... who wants to Put 'No PPing' or some such on their body? As almost stated by Taurus, if I tattoo no wacking on my body, will I be spared attack should a war break out? I personally do not agree with marking my body like that, which is why I have no marks like that. However, everybody should know that I am a Pick Pocket by trade, and if they don't, then I want to know why the fuck not? It's been in the papers, it's been in the streets, and with 400+ victims to my name chances are I've been in your pockets already. So the general populace should all know that they are free to stick their grubby little paws into my pockets and risk their lunch over what they pull out.

If I have ever upset you Cassiopeia over rifling through your pockets undeclared theni will apologise, however you should take it as a compliament. I see you as a challenge, and worth my effort and time, prescious commodities even for a super fiend, and if I am successful then at least you know you have been robbed by the best... kinda like being gunned down by Roman personally in a time of war... If that happened to me, I'd be pissed for 5 seconds that I now had to find a new corpse to inhabit, but at the same time I'd be proud that Roman saw me as enough of a threat to personally remove me from the opposition.

5k or in the case of Alabama $161

Ahem. Can't blame a lady if she is careful with her money. With all the thieves around these parts it only makes sense to visit the bank on a regular basis to deposit your cash. You're just bitter because I tend to Pick your pocket straight back and get away with more money than you did.

I appreciate everyone's feedback, however I feel that we are starting to drift from the point. Please let me reiterate, I am not, nor have I ever been angry or upset or mad or sad about someone reaching into my pocket and stealing from me. I am not, nor have I ever been angry or upset or mad or sad about someone stealthing me when reaching into my pockets.

What I am upset about, bothered about, angry about, upset about is that their are rules in place that not everyone is following, that can't get punished, that some people are DYING over. There is an agreed rule that all city's share in and that is no one may shoot at someone who has been on our shores less than forty eight hours. This rule is very easy to police, as there is always someone witnessing this type of crime, even when someone is stealthy in their shot. There is not always someone around to witness a pickpocket and there are NO witnesses whatsoever to a stealthed pickpocket. So essentially if you are stealthy, then you can avoid following this rule. That is a problem. If a rule cannot be enforced, then why are other people being punished and or killed over it???

Let me give an example of what I am speaking of. Let's say I am in a city that requires written consent to pick through someones pocket. And someone reaches in and makes off with my money before I can even turn around and see their face. No note, no nothing. They have just broken the rule of the city. There is no one for me to tell, because I have no idea who has done this. Then lets say I forget that this city requires written consent and I want to have a fancy dinner but I don't feel like using my own money. So I stick my hands in someone elses pocket and walk away counting my loot with a smile on my face. They spy me making off with their money and they go and tell their CL "Cassi totally stole my money and didn't ask my permission!!" So their CL goes to my CL and says... "Cassi broke the law and we want her blood to pay for this sin that she has committed." BAM! I am dead. But yet, just mere minutes before, the same incident occured and this person walks away free and clear, no punishments, no death, nothing but the experience and my money.

That is the problem I am seeing. I understand that not everyone is going to share my opinions, I just hope to open some eyes to this problem and hope that somehow we can collectively come up with a solution.

In the example you mention, that other person got away with it thanks to his stealth. You know that you usually can´t get away with it because you lack such stealth.

Look at JudgeDeath, with over 400+ pockets picked, he still keeps track of the permissions given and the city rules. 

I never utilized other people braking rules as an excuse to break them myself. Like I said before, that person is taking a chance every time they do it and I have to admit I respect them for that.

But they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it because other people are dying over this rule. It is a LAW in some cities, a REQUIREMENT to follow. It is not ok for them to just get away with it when other people are being punished. People don't just get away with stealing someone's MIA even when they are stealthy. People don't just get away with killing someone who has been on our shores less than forty eight hours. If people are going to be allowed to just get away with it, then it shouldn't be an enforced city rule. It is not ok for people to just get away something because of their skill when others are DYING for it. Either that, DEATH should not be an option as punishment. It is not about the action, but about the lack of being able to enforce the rule properly.

I agree that they shouldn´t be *allowed* to get away, and they aren´t. They are geting away with it because nobody sees them.

If you wanna risk taking the chance because you think you'll do it without them catching a glimpse of your face that's all on you. Be like shooting a civilian in a city where someone might not tell anyone about it.....do you wanna chance death that you'll get away with it? If you do take the shot or attempt the mugging.....What's the worst that can happen? You bring a little shame to the family name (as in yours and the crew) and possibly exit this world disgracefully? There's always people who toe the line and truthfully believe they're above the rules.

The kicker is should you have to ask for permission? No. Should you be shot by the person you just attacked and robbed? Yes. Looks like rules are being put into place for the greater good more than anything. Otherwise total chaos would reign.

Being shot for pickpocketing is and will always be beyond my comprehension. According to the rules, I a boss have to obtain written permission before I PP a wise guy or even a thug. Where's the logic in that?

 I understand that if someone below your rank PP's you, he should be punished, not by being shot, but rather a fine let's say 50-100k depending on rank. In that way you actually gain something.

Aren't there more important issues that need discussing, such as member whoring. Which took days and days of debating, before it was banned, but now it can't be found in any city rule.

Bruiser walks up reluctantly to ask a question. 

Before I say too much I do have a quick question.  Are people really being killed as a punishment for picking someones pocket without consent?  That seems a bit extreme if this is truely the case.

Franco, a few days ago you outranked me. If we were on different families, I don't think my boss would appreciate you stealing money that I'm actually earning for her. every 5 k I lose is 5k less I have to tribute. In this particular case our leader may have her own views, but CLs that agree with the discussed PPing rules don't like their members being stolen from. From that POV, you are outranking the person you PP, but you don't outrank the person that has an interest invested in those pockets.

As far as member whoring... you are just opening a whole other can of worms. When member whoring was banned completely, so many people misinterpreted the rules that new population was drastically decreasing as many people were too afraid to talk to newcomers.

Also, if you think better things need to be discussing, why don't you just open another topic yourself? I think that we don'tneed to be underestimating any topic as long as the people involved are willing to invest the time to discuss it.

And VBruiser, yes. People have recently died over PPing issues.

Sly as I may be, I've never been much of a pickpocket.  It never seemed worth the trouble.  As a result, impotent for revenge, I've often found myself at the mercy of these assailants.

It's never bothered me much--as I've heard someone say, "I don't really care about small change."  And if they go unidentified, what can you really do?

But every once in a while, it gets to me.  Like anyone else, I suppose, I am occasionally angered by an uninvited offender.

All that being said, I was recently pickpocketed by an uninvited assailant whom I outranked.  I was a made man, and he a wise guy.  I chose to let it slide.  Though I was able to identify my assailant, it didn't seem worth the trouble to confront them about the matter.  This made me think back to times in the past when I had been infuriated by a pickpocketer.  I think the leson here is that, sometimes, we need to curb our rage.  It is more useful elsewhere.  And somtimes, to be frank, we need to pick our battles.

I do like your points, though, Mr Focker.

WS WANTED IMMEDIATELY!!!

:Sly laughs:

I guess I was asking for it.

Would you honestly steal money from a "rival" crime families mobster that they earned and not expect something bad in return? The logic backing this seems to be severely flawed.

Now the odd world we live in....some mobsters are ok with the idea of it and will allow you to do it after asking a simple question. Why would you blatantly side step the question and kindness to attack someone? Then get bent out of shape when a punishment is handed down? We wont even mention the fact that you probably disrespected a city and it's rules in the process.

It far from bothers me except for the fact that it's a slap in the face to some rules and cities who've placed rules on the issue.

I'm literally going in circles. When you pickpocket someone you are assaulting them and stealing money out of their pocket. It's not odd that people are getting upset...it's odd that some people are allowing it (me being one). All most of the ones allowing it are asking is to simply be notified. Where is the problem in this? It's not stealing when they allow you to take it.... is it?

Here is the long and the short of it.

Respect each cities rules, regardless of your own personal policys.

Perhaps we should read the city rules first, seeing how there is no PP mentioned in the NY city rules, so I guess the guy that PP'd you Cassiopeia had according to the rules every right to do so.