Welcome to MR.

I love the sentiment in this letter, but I think the thing most, or at least some, people can't stand is that you seem to think yourself as being different to many of the players. There are players that have been here for over a decade with the same dreams and desires as yourself and have been right here where you are now and learned the hard way that to achieve the things that they wish to achieve there are going to be ups and downs along the way.

Its not about Power to people like Bubbles. Sure, there are some out there that are power hungry, but to Bubbles and others alike - its about playing a Game. Thats it a Game. Whether you want to play as a hard nosed arsehole that will shoot anything that walks, or as someone thats all sunshine and rainbows and wants to skip off down the street humming wee tunes to themselves as they ignore all that goes on around them - it doesn't matter.

Everyone has their own style of playing. Its still just a game at the end of the day. 

I wish you well in your house hunting and with your financial issues, I know from personal experience how much of a help MR can be in such dark personal times so I'm sure you wont retire for too long. Just know that when you come back, just you be you like you've been doing, but dont expect others to make efforts to not bring you down just because you feel what your doing is to the benefit of everyone, we are all playing the game and we all have our own ideas on what makes the game better.

~ Frank

 "Whether you want to play as a hard nosed arsehole that will shoot anything that walks"

Sounds good to me :D

Since you decided to bring me up as some sort of reasoning let us get the facts straight.

I do not speak to you unless I have to. So no I haven't been mailing you. I haven't been in any contact with you except to give out Easter codes. I do not care for you in any way so I don't speak to you. Stop bringing me up like we have conversations every other day.

Also, stop telling people I am hiding behind an anonymous crap to send you stuff or to leave messages. Lets make one thing clear, I have always said what I think directly. I don't hide behind anonymous clothing. So perhaps you have other people that don't like you doing these things but I can assure you I wouldn't waste anything to send anonymous messages to you. You are not worth my credits or money to do so.

Get a grip and get over your damn obsession.

Yes, yes, make excuse after excuse for your selfish actions and then blame everyone but yourself for your own downfall. 

Tip for the future, learn to listen more than you speak. 

Dee, I have no idea who your bloodline is and you probably have no idea about mine. However, I know of this situation that has taken place and I know that perhaps from you being emotionally attached to your character, you have misplaced your anger and blame.

Bubbles,

When we spoke about our kids the other day and talked about you going off to a comedy show in concert I thought to myself wow here’s another mom another cool person on site I never once expected that you didn’t like me so I guess you did a really good job of hiding it, you’re probably better at playing this game and I am congratulations.

I’m sorry to break it to you, but unless you are in the same city, or even district as sometimes the case may be, friendship does NOT trump loyalty, or at least it shouldn’t do. I personally have no idea if Bubbles likes you or not, but because she went to war with you that doesn’t mean she dislikes you. All Bubbles is doing is what the mechanics of the game is at least partly designed for and that is war. Even with feigned hatred in the streets, this does not mean it transcends the game. Perhaps taking heed of this might prevent you from future upset.

Now we get to the part where you wrongfully blame Olivia, at least indirectly.

I knew very well that if she handed over those documents that you guys would shoot me so there’s no hard feelings about that I suppose.

And yet you still posted this to her? I’m sorry but this is incredibly foolish on your behalf and thus meaning the only one you have to blame for your demise is yourself. Olivia did what she was supposed to out of loyalty. Perhaps it’s a hard lesson learned?

I have to admit that it wears on me to have people thinking the worst of me when I’m doing nothing but spending 40 to 60 hours a week trying to teach new people and trying to create a fun environment here in a game where the whole point is to kill each other.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Unfortunately, this game CAN be based on lies and deceit, but that’s what happens in a mafia world. You are playing a game that is supposed to represent the 1930’s mafioso world as accurately as possible, so of course that will happen. Again it’s a hard lesson to learn, but you are not the first to be bitten and you will most certainly will not be the last.

Ironically perhaps my experience here is a lesson for some other players well because The game is not played by the characters it is played by players who were all talking out of character forming opinions about each other based on phone calls and video chats and interactions with past characters…

 There is no lesson here unfortunately. This point is already very well known. It has been discussed more times than I can remember for the past ten years or so. First it was mIRC/coffee shops, then it was skype and now it’s whatsapp. The truth of the matter is, we need these other forms of communication to aide our day to day task and thus trying to seperate what is OOC and what is in character is near enough impossible. As these types of communication are an extension of MafiaReturns, in my eyes it’s deemed as an admissible way of forming an opinion of someone which may impact what happens on this site.

At the end of the day you can’t take things too seriously including character death.

I hate to be a negative Nancy here, but isn’t this exactly what you are doing here? I mean why would you type up this thread which you admit is on your phone (which would take longer than typing it up on a computer), unless you took this situation seriously and to heart? Perhaps I have missed the reasoning for this.

As a person on the outside looking in, there is only one person that is responsible for your death. Out of respect I will not say who, but I will say that it is not Olivia nor is it Bubbles.

After the fall of Chicago - I sent a letter to Olivia.  I knew her from Marie's crew and thought was a new player deeply hurt over what she saw as me letting her noble ideals about the game down.  I wanted her to like me as much as I liked her - positively middle school of me but it's true.  She seemed a fantastically talented new person in the game and I thought maybe if I explained all the reasons why I might accept safe-listing not only would she give over on the saltiness but maybe she'd ease up on me too.  Maybe she'd say "this is a good person, not a traitorous bitch, and I'm wrong."  In the end my letters (which apparently contained 11 mentions of revenge, I'm told) only fulfilled a prophecy I made in the end of them:  that if she sent the on to someone, they would get me dead.

Do you remember how our conversation started? I see you conveniently left that part out of your "explanation." The part about how someone was harassing you in G1 and I defended you, at which point you mailed me to thank me. I never asked for an explanation from you. In fact, I told you that I respected your ability to the play the game your way, no matter what anyone else thinks. You didn't like that I disagreed with the actions that you took and felt the need to send me several very long explanations.

I pretended to be new. So what? As TyrionLannister excellently pointed out, welcome to MR. This is the game; many many people pretend to be new on runs, for whatever their own reasons. This is the mafia; you do what you need to do in order to survive. When you found out I wasn't new, you easily could have come and spoken to me. You obviously remembered the mail, as you immediately knew why you were dead. But you didn't. In fact, when you saw your whisper (which I didn't leave, fyi) you almost acted like I had rogued out to shoot you.

So let's talk about the mail. 

In a passing conversation with the HEAD of my city, I made mention of the mail which you had sent me because I found it amusing. They asked that I send it to them if I still had it because they wanted to read it. Should I have told them no? I even said to my city leader that I didn't find it threatening, just the ramblings of someone who clearly doesn't understand the game that well. At that point, my city head decided what to do with it. It was never sent maliciously. There was no intention behind it. It was an amusing mail from a clearly very new player that I shared with my friend and boss. The powers above me decided where to go from there.

You need to get over yourself, seriously. You go on in your mail (which was sent to me, of course, because you mention my name way too many times) to tell your crew not to be salty while you yourself are salty. You want people to blame me but there is no one to blame but yourself. I did what the head of my city asked me to do and nothing more. You, meanwhile, have called me several names (yes, you have and yes I heard) and proceeded to act like I'm the entire reason you died, that I'm somehow vindictive, evil or out to get you, none of which is true. Stop taking stuff so personally and move on. 

And more importantly, leave my name out of your long mails and threads, please. I did nothing to you but shared a mail that you openly admit you should never have sent in the first place. 

. Stop taking stuff so personally and move on. 

Kinda ironic coming from you.  

The game is not played by the characters it is played by players who were all talking out of character forming opinions about each other based on phone calls and video chats and interactions with past characters and all of that informs how you will treat that person going forward in the game regardless of how many characters they make or what crews they’ve ever run with .

In this I think lies the overarching problem. But I'm not sure there is a solution here at MR, other than choosing not to play the game altogether. I'll even go as far as saying it is less a mafia game based in the 1930's and more a real life simulation of gun-toting politics, with an option to write some stuff. Which, I enjoy.

So my point is, there doesn't seem to be a way around all this OOC drama unless one chooses not the play the game. It's just how it is, good or bad. And we all get splashed by it in some way or another.

You already know I think you are a positive part of the community. Keep playing the game the way you choose to, as it's your choice to do so. Some will like it, others wont. But in the end the people you influence positively are the ones winning here.

See you soon for some writing :)

In all of this apparently I have not been very clear.

I am to blame for my character's death and my crew members perishing.
No one else is. 

I wrote this open letter to: 

1. Reply to the manner in which our crew take down was addressed in the streets (Bubbles was very kind to write me a note to invite me to talk with her when I come back in 1-3 weeks time, FYI... thank you Bubbles!)
2. To explain to people what happened from my perspective because that's what I do here - I share what I learn as I experience it.

Anyone/everyone is welcome to comment on that, hence why it's an open letter rather than a private note.  I was inviting discussion, comment, feedback, and advice even if it wasn't supportive.  I knew this wouldn't be a "great job" pat on the back thread.  I'm not THAT new to the internet. 

Obviously, mine is not the only way to view things and certainly your take away from this is going to be different than mine.  That's not an insult - that's just how we are as people.  Different past experiences lead to different perspectives even when viewing the same event.

In fairness, I wholeheartedly acknowledge that I was defended in G1 (I'll avoid saying your name since you asked.) 

I do acknowledge I wrote a thank you note for that, because I honestly and genuinely did appreciate it; however, the conversation began because you asked me how I can consider what I did to have been 'okay' or something along those lines (I don't have the letter any more as it was over 50 days ago and the only way to keep a letter that long is to archive it for later use/reference which I didn't honestly think I'd need to do.) I realized that despite defending me, you seemed to also have a personal opinion on me which was negative.  As anyone would try to do, I wanted to give you different perspective on why someone (me) might do what I did.

Did I heavily imply that survival on my part was to get revenge:  YES!  Which is why this is DEFINITELY my fault.  I can't put that on anyone but me.  I typed the words that loaded a gun and put it to my own head.  And you're right, I knew IMMEDIATELY when I got the whisper that it was about the letter I sent you which should reveal BEYOND A DOUBT that it was the ONLY time I'd ever talked about such things otherwise I wouldn't have known who or what happened. 

At that moment I was shot I just figured it was an attack on me, I hadn't even looked down at the "recently online" to see others were dead.  So, yes, I also admit that I *DID* think you had gone rogue - probably because I (once again) got comfortable with the idea that I was well liked and didn't have much to worry about (beyond someone going rogue I mean.) 

Look - when I wrote you those letters I had hoped that by pointing out that my motive could easily have been "survive to avenge my friends" or "outlive my enemies" that you (who I thought was new) might consider a point of view which (in the end) you weren't willing to accept, which was: accepting a safe-listing after my CL was dead (and thus my crew was gone) was NOT a traitorous act.  And that maybe, if you had seen things from my point of view it could have lead to a deeper friendship and bond between us.  Perhaps us teaming up in game somewhere down the line - THAT was how much respect I had for you and your actions.

I did what I did because I craved your approval & wanted your friendship - I didn't want you (or anyone else) to see me as some sort of villain/scum who betrays her friends for personal gain.  I wanted you to think well of me because I saw in your words and deeds a person that I wanted to be a friend of. 

I do NOT regret that.  Not one bit, because if you had been a new person who didn't know better, maybe I would have introduced a new concept of play.  And because I refuse to apologize for trying to speak with empathy to someone who had just lost a crew leader she respected - someone who had done me a kindness by sticking up for me. 

I was sincere in trying to point out that:  'I get your feelings - I hated losing my friend/CL too, but survival in this game is the ONLY way you really can honor the legacy of your former crew - by outliving your enemies or out playing them.  Once you're dead, you're a new character with new loyalties (ideally) and what good does that do the dead?'

As for why I didn't come back to you about the note when I found out you were an experienced player and NOT new... well that's easy:  I knew if you were an experienced player you knew the value of what you had from the moment it arrived in your inbox.  At that point you had a choice.  You could archive it in case you needed the letter later to throw me under a bus ... or if you were honestly just a person trying to understand my motives (as you seemed) you probably deleted the letter (or the mail system auto deleted it since it was over 50 days old) so there was no point in bringing it back up. Either you were the sort of player who plans ahead and keeps tools and resources to hang people... or you weren't.  If you were the prior, I knew I'd own that when it came up.  I never had illusions about it.  If you were the later, it was a happy reason to know I was right about who you were all along - a person who I definitely wanted the respect of.

As for my long as letter and why I wrote this -- I think if you've been watching me on the site, you'll see that I have shared my journey every step of the way.  I've been very open about what I'm learning, my successes/observations/and brutally honest about my own failures and the price of those failures.  While some of you *MAY* (I don't want to put words in your mouths) see that as utterly self-serving or patting myself on the back - I thought of it as being a contributing member of the community because maybe someone learns from this - maybe I and other people who doesn't get me come to see eye to eye.  Really the only way to grow and learn is to share where we're at & listen to others. 

I know I speak a lot, but I don't think that's an issue.  I think maybe more people (ones with years and years of wisdom in this game) should come out and talk OoC about what they know/understand/think about the game.  In that way everyone's experience is enriched and there's more activity on the forums.

I've heard a lot of people talk about wanting discussions, debates to come back to the site "like the old days" when the 'streets weren't dead' ... well, I'd like to see those discussions happening in the OoC board.  I want to have players sharing their thoughts and experiences without having to force it into some sort of 'in-character talk' because it makes no sense that mobsters would stand on street corners airing dirty laundry.  In truth we're all talking about the nature of the game and game-play styles... those sorts of conversations are far better suited to this board; in my honest opinion.  But, I digress.  

I hope that clears up the confusion as to the intention of my open letter and maybe opens the door to further discussion on either what I've said here (thank you to those who have given your opinions of my point of view and tried to share yours) and the subject of our willingness to teach and discuss game topics with others in the community.

-Dee

I don't know why you want this to be discussed. Only a few select members of the community have seen THE LETTER and you keep carrying on about it. How is the whole community suppose to discuss something that happened between two people?

I've heard a lot of people talk about wanting discussions, debates to come back to the site "like the old days" when the 'streets weren't dead' ... well, I'd like to see those discussions happening in the OoC board.  I want to have players sharing their thoughts and experiences without having to force it into some sort of 'in-character talk' because it makes no sense that mobsters would stand on street corners airing dirty laundry. 

If the game was played YOUR way...what would even be discussed in the streets if debates and discussions are in OOC?  

Malis - Please don't mistake me, I'm not trying to insult people here or anything.  There are ways some discussions could still happen in character which makes more sense in the context of role-play ... for example:  crew leaders sitting down for a meeting of the cities, people in the bars talking privately, and crew HQ discussions. 

It's just the whole "I stand on the corner talking to any mobster who walks up" thing seems... odd?  I mean, how do you KNOW that person is a mobster and not an undercover FBN agent or someone not involved with the mob at all?  See my point? 

I get that people want to have debates as their characters about in story events (and that's great) but a lot of times people want to talk about how the game (not story) is played and, to me, that feels forced?  Like everyone is doing their damnedest to try and find creative terms to speak about in game mechanics and concepts, which might just be more easily discussed oocly?

For example:  I originally started writing up an RP 101 class and tried to host it in the streets because I knew more folks would be willing to participate (and that proved true - once I moved it to the ooc board, no one responded) but it was VERY difficult to try to find creative ways to discuss the mechanics of the game / site tools / internet resources etc on the IC Streets.  It can be done, but it's was far better suited to the OoC board.

Does that make sense?  

It's just the whole "I stand on the corner talking to any mobster who walks up" thing seems... odd?  I mean, how do you KNOW that person is a mobster and not an undercover FBN agent or someone not involved with the mob at all?  See my point? 

Sure, I understand this. If you are a writer looking at the WHOLE world this does seem odd. But we aren't writing a mafia novel here. We're playing a mafia themed game. All the characters are mafiosos. It doesn't make sense when a robot is a Gangster or when a dog is a Don. When you bring a debate to the streets so you are able to post in character and not just be another OOC player you are obviously addressing your fellow peers...not the cop down at the other corner or your hair dresser. 

Are the streets a proper place to have your made man ceremony/celebration? No. I feel like that should stay in your headquarters. Or in the business district. That's your crew/district/city's business. Why are you sharing it with the rest of the world? Why does NY care about LV's members? It's odd. 

I get that people want to have debates as their characters about in story events (and that's great) but a lot of times people want to talk about how the game (not story) is played and, to me, that feels forced?  Like everyone is doing their damnedest to try and find creative terms to speak about in game mechanics and concepts, which might just be more easily discussed oocly?

Why have one or the other? Why not contribute both. If you want OOC replies write and post your debate in OOC. If you want in character contribution, write and post in the streets. Use EVERYTHING to your advantage. 

Woah woah woah woah woah woah. Malis, you watch your tongue about robots and dogs...

There are ways some discussions could still happen in character which makes more sense in the context of role-play ... for example:  crew leaders sitting down for a meeting of the cities, people in the bars talking privately, and crew HQ discussions. 

I commend you for your efforts to improve the game and make it more playable for new members in some respects, however, for you to blather on about debates and such belonging in OOC because no real mobster would air their dirty laundry on a Streetcorner yet pat yourself on the back for holding Made Man ceremonies in public to bring life to the Streets... Did you ever wonder why you were one of the few (Definitely not the first) to do this? Same with your OOC news update about your crew... Because SOME things go on behind closed doors and shouldn't be done in public. Made Man ceremonies are supposed to be a private affair. In respects to your view of debates being the airing of dirty laundry in public, how is announcing to the world that a member of your crew has passed all your tests and has earned the rank of Made Man keeping with the theme of the game?

The debates and discussions on Street corners are no different than sitting at a table in a bar and doing it in this world. It's not all festivals and recipe exchanges. For some people holding hands with someone at a wedding feels forced, while debating the need for more crews and fewer districts does not. It's all about the people behind the words and what they feel comfortable doing and where they feel comfortable doing it. You may want to go back to the very first page of the Streets and read your way through history. Some people enjoy sitting on a stoop discussing current events such as politics and others enjoy watching someone from another crew, another district, another city's Made Man ceremony.

I get it, you're new here. You've had, what, two names? You don't understand that some things are better kept behind closed doors to preserve the meaning of them. You don't get that not everyone is a hardcore write a 16 paragraph descriptive about flowers and butterflies. I admire your energy and drive to change things around here, but you need to learn about where this place came from and why things are the way they are before you steamroll it and make it what you want it to be. 

I've seen you call more experienced players that have been around for years "washed up" and made comments about them "burning bridges" for pointing out that some of your actions don't exactly go with the flow or the meaning of family/loyalty among other things when you are called out on your actions. Sometimes listening and learning will get you further than talking to hear yourself talk.

Take some time to immerse yourself in the MR culture, the history, before you try and change it into your dreamscape. 

I agree with Morgaine here. Frankie/Lucy/Dee, it really seems like you are trying to make MR into the vision you see it as. This is awesome, for you, but if you forget about all the other players....who don't want to play the same way as you do it really feels like you are coming in here and telling us we've been doing it wrong this whole entire time, but you know the way. Maybe it's because I've been playing a lot of Far Cry 5 - But sometimes The Ivory Tower sounds like a cult. I've heard that it is open to new members....but it seems just like another clique. You as the leader showing us the true way to make MafiaReturns great again. 

Take Morgaine's advice here: immerse yourself in the culture, the history and the people. If you skip over this you'll always feel separated from the community. Sure, you can make The Ivory Tower your own community....but it's not the MR community. 

Every person that signs up and plays this game shapes it. This game will always be evolving, but not just from ONE person or ONE group.

No offence Malis, but some of those people and that culture is a clique all on its own, and not exactly positive. Much like in Far Cry 5 (which I gotta grab btw, been looking forward to its release). And some people just don't want to be part of it, especially when they realize how exclusive it is and how fake it can also be, with all the backstabbing and OOC drama that comes with it. It's like a bad version of highschool.

The Ivory Tower speaks for itself. There's no bullshit in it. It's here to offer something different, and with a strong purpose on bringing positivity to the community. There's no fluff, and it really is just about what it says it's about.

But when I keep looking at some of the shitty personalities here, and the OOC grudges that go way beyond the game itself, I find it hard to see why Dee might want to keep trying. I just come here to write so I can avoid the shit to some extent, but she stands tall and tries to do something that many seem to not appreciate. Why? Because she's thinking outside the 'traditionally accepted' box? What. The. Fuck?

This game isn't open to people pushing the envelope. It's a cliquey game where if you're not in with the cool kids, you're an outsider. And why in the hell would anyone want to try and sit at the cool kids table, if those at the table are continually judgemental and negative OOCly? That's why some of us do try different things, because that table sucks. And The Ivory Tower is just one of those things. I really can't see how this is seen as such a bad thing. But then again, I'm not one of the cool kids :)

I say, if it's not breaking any site rules, then let it be. Appreciate the intention behind it, rather than throw it away because it doesn't fit into neat little boxes of how things have always been done. Let people be different and play things their own way.

I agree with Morgaine here. Frankie/Lucy/Dee, it really seems like you are trying to make MR into the vision you see it as. This is awesome, for you, but if you forget about all the other players....who don't want to play the same way as you do it really feels like you are coming in here and telling us we've been doing it wrong this whole entire time, but you know the way.

I cannot believe these words were typed from you. You do this same exact thing.  Amazing.

Tiggy there are plenty of washed up old players. Do you you consider yourself to be on top of the top compared,   to your first couple of years. 

Half of you old players are washed up can't build for shit . Pretty usless if you cant build.