*Zeitgeist walked slowly through the streets of Manhattan lost in thought, there had been something that had been troubling his mind for some time and he had been rolling the idea around in his head trying to find the best words to describe the particular issue that was troubling him. Zeitgeist stopped for his morning cup of coffee at his favorite diner, right across from his finally completed new offices to once and for all collect his thoughts and elucidate the issue to the masses. Zeitgeist sipped on his coffee, sip after sip; arguing with himself, out loud at times, before finally deciding he knew how to express himself. Zeitgeist left a shiny $5 bill on the table as he always did before grabbing his hat and making his way to the street corner to address the city*

Ladies and Gentleman, I wanted to share with you something that has been troubling me for some time and I was hoping to hear your thoughts and opinions on the matter as perhaps my thinking is a bit archaic on the subject as the handbook my grandfather left me is quite a few years old now and it would appear some of the traditions and rules in this thing of ours are no longer relevant, this being the issue of family and indeed city loyalty. 

*Zeitgeist paused for a moment to collect his thoughts and take a sip from his hip flask, before continuing to speak*

There appears to be no loyalty to ones family or city anymore, I have seen some things during my short stint here that would have made some old time mafioso roll over in their graves twice. I thought I would share some of these with you and you can tell me what your thoughts on the matter are, remembering please that we are Mafioso not running a charity or day care center here.

Scenario One

Gangster approaches crew leader and does some good work. Crew leader meets with Gangster and after an interview hires said gangster to join family X in city Y. Gangster works in the family for some time earning some initial promotions before receiving the rank of earner. Crew leader goes to sleep wakes up to find Earner has left family X and city Y for family A in city B. There is not so much as a note from the departing earner or indeed the crew leader who knowingly welcomed them into their family knowing they were an Earner for another family in another city. Crew leader from family X approaches crew leader in family A to inquire and is informed "Oh this happens now"

Does this sit well with everyone?

Scenario Two

Crew leader D from city X retires suddenly for whatever reason, leaving his members with 7 days to find a new home. These members then choose to join city Y and Z despite being born, raised and protected by city X their whole lives. 

Should these members not by right, be required to stay with city X or at the very least inquire with the Godfather of their original city to find out if it is acceptable they move to another city?

Scenario Three

Family X is at war, a respected left hand man/woman from family X leaves the family mid-war to join family Y. This person is not only accepted into family Y but is then given another position as a hand, despite the fact they have just shown themselves to not have any loyalty at all. 

Is this acceptable?

*Zeitgeist shakes his head for a moment thinking that in the old days all of these situations would have resulted in the death of the abandoning members and in some instances probably the crew leader who took in the member as well and today this behavior seems all too common place*

So please tell me folks, is my thinking a bit too primal and outdated? Is allegiance to a city/leader non-existent these days and we should all just sit back and tolerate it? Or do we need to start getting a bit firmer on some of these issues and remind ourselves that we are criminals driven by profit and this behavior seems very bad for business and reputations alike.

*Zeitgeist walks slowly from where he had been talking allowing people to come forward to share their thoughts on the matter*

Loyalty is a word majority of our community doesn't understand anymore unless its strictly to themselves.

In regard to scenario two, I've always believed that the Godfather of said city should have the rights over the members first. Honestly if the Godfather of that city was involved enough to have talked to each member in their district then it may happen naturally. 

In the past I've had a similar situation happen to one of my ancestor's and since the Godfather had reached out to me even as a young unproven mobster I felt a since of loyalty and spoke to him about what to do. So I guess it's a double edged sword, if the Godfather was worthy it would be natural and expected. But sadly many people achieve the rank of godfather who aren't even fit to be a hand to a crew leader. Lack the charisma and people skills it truly takes to be a top tier Godfather and commander of a district or city. They do exist if you look at the history of organized crime in our world and it's what many strive for, although few work hard enough to be respected and/or feared by others to this degree.

As someone currently in the 6th city this run and someone who made a similarly questionable transfer I feel obligated to offer my own two cents here. My line although a relatively short one remembers times of old when at least two people had to vouch for every crew member who earned a button. The people who vouched were held accountable for any action the individual committed and therefore their trust had to be earned. Many similar traditions have existed in the past that held at their heart the same issue, accountability, both by and for the individual.

I do not claim to be an expert analyst on how we got to where we are but my opinion is that the prolonged period of peace before the sudden war that preceded the one on Christmas. With peace came lax regulations and limited oversight. Interactions between Godfathers and members, hell even in some cases between Crew leaders and members became minimal. Loyalty shifted from those who fostered you and those you served to those you interacted with. 

With my lack of political authority, I am not in a position to comment on the benefits or lack thereof for this particular change in loyalty. I will, however, provide my own humble opinion about the scenarios you put forth.

Scenario One is quite simply reprehensible and there, you and I Zeitgeist are in agreement.

Scenario Three although unadvisable simply for reasons of logic is still the decision of the new crew leader. If they want to dig their own grave by hiring someone who runs at the first sign of trouble, why stop them? Let natural selection root out the neanderthals I say.

Scenario Two and by extension my own example is where I will offer a contrary opinion. First the scenario itself. There may exist situations where a particular Crew leader has proven to be more social and supportive than the Godfather or any other crew leader in the city. As such people who started in the city, used to a certain kind of accountability from their leader, when offered much less may not appreciate an iron regulation to stay in the city regardless.

Also as a subset of this scenario, I would like to ask about something that transpired recently. If crew A from city X gets an officially sanctioned move to the empty city Y with the permission to build up the city as they see fit, wherein the crew leader of crew A dies or retires are their crew members now supposed to stay in Y or return to X or are they free to look for a new future?

Now pertaining to my own example, I admit I have moved around a lot but my situation is a fairly rare one. A lack of political ambition and a search for new adventures fills me with wanderlust. But never have I made a move without the consent of my crew leader as many from my past will tell you. In fact, every time I search for a new home, one of the clauses in my contract is a specific request to allow me an opportunity to depart in the future when I see fit after paying the required severance penalty. Despite my participation in a crew, I turn down all opportunities to earn a button so as to free me of permanent obligations. As someone who takes up residence in a city after already having lived over 200 days all over the country, I find it hard to develop any sense of fanatical loyalty to the city itself. My loyalties lie with the Crew Leader who offers me a home despite all my inadequacies.

So when my Crew Leader expires, whatever the reason may be for their death, I find no reason to stay and that is precisely what happened after Madeline's death in Vegas.

Ronin stepped up after Alexander and nodded to his old friend Zeitgeist.

"These are some interesting scenarios you've posted here, Z. I'm going to address each of your scenarios in order with how I, as a leader, would react."

Scenario One

Gangster approaches crew leader and does some good work. Crew leader meets with Gangster and after an interview hires said gangster to join family X in city Y. Gangster works in the family for some time earning some initial promotions before receiving the rank of earner. Crew leader goes to sleep wakes up to find Earner has left family X and city Y for family A in city B. There is not so much as a note from the departing earner or indeed the crew leader who knowingly welcomed them into their family knowing they were an Earner for another family in another city. Crew leader from family X approaches crew leader in family A to inquire and is informed "Oh this happens now"

 Should this have happened to me, I confess I would be rather irritated. While over the past few years movement such as this has become a bit more accepted, having it transpire as such without so much as a thank you note sent my way would make my blood boil. The other leader, especially, should have reached out and made an effort to make the transfer as smooth as possible, if it was absolutely necessary. I understand that sometimes people choose the wrong place, or want to be with old friends. When your choices are transfer or suicide, I would hope you would do all within your ability to make that transfer process as smooth as possible.

Scenario Two

Crew leader D from city X retires suddenly for whatever reason, leaving his members with 7 days to find a new home. These members then choose to join city Y and Z despite being born, raised and protected by city X their whole lives. 

 

Should these members not by right, be required to stay with city X or at the very least inquire with the Godfather of their original city to find out if it is acceptable they move to another city?

We saw a lot of this over the last week or so, with Don Madeline being executed and her close friend Roper offing himself in grief shortly after. This can be a tricky one, and you have to try to look at it from multiple perspectives.

If I were a member who's leader had just died, the first thing I would do is look at my choices within that same city. Do I know the other leaders there, have I even interacted with them? Do they seem like the type of person I would work well with, or someone whose style might clash with mine? Most people are going to see it as they swore loyalty to that leader, they interacted with and worked closely with that leader. In all but the rarest cases, they probably never even spoke to the Godfather or successor whom they are now considering staying under. In this case, I would say that it certainly shouldn't be required.

As a leader, I would hope that my own reputation and/or efforts would be enough to keep those unsponsored people around. Should it not, I would redouble my efforts to make myself known to more of the city than just my own flock.

Scenario Three

Family X is at war, a respected left hand man/woman from family X leaves the family mid-war to join family Y. This person is not only accepted into family Y but is then given another position as a hand, despite the fact they have just shown themselves to not have any loyalty at all.

This is absolutely, unequivocally unacceptable. The person in question should be ashamed of themselves. I'm not sure if this was an actual event or you're just theorizing on possible scenarios, but this should NEVER happen. Mid War? Disgusting. When you take a position of leadership in a family that position should be until death or promotion change it.

Now if the war had finished, and this hand survived it but their CL did not, and the person in question then joined a sister or allied city and took a hand job, I could see it as acceptable.

I've seen scenario three happen over and over again. I can think of off hand at least 20 instances in which it has happened. I've even seen the hand shoot at their own crew and join the shooters on the wave. It's sad but definitely happens.

There are of loyalty seen in this world, one to your leader and the other loyalty to your friends. Often times people have loyalty to their friends over their CL or GF. From my observations it seems to me loyalty to friends seems to have gotten people further than loyalty to the chain of command. So therefore it continues to live on and reign as the preferred choice for many bloodlines who are well off over many generations due to this choice. 

Question is if it works can you blame them, and if it's shown to be something acceptable then why would we expect anything different. The old school is dead, it's a new generation of mobster out here that's thriving in our world these days.

John slowly walked out and sat down on the sidewalk near where people were still discussing this idea of 'loyalty' and what it truly was in today's world of organized crime. He went to pull out his flask when his hand met with something that felt a bit wet...

"What the..." He began to say under his breath.

As he pulled back his hand there was a bit of red upon it. He paused for a moment with some confusion and realized that it wasn't his blood. He had gotten into quite the fight when he tried to take out a top member of the rogue crew that showed up in Seattle. The man had clearly not wanted to go out without a fight and it got bloody.

John sighed as it was a nice shirt that was now ruined, but he pushed past the blood stain and grabbed his flask in order to take a couple sips from it....

"Alright, now I wanted to get involved in this conversation some time ago. Obviously I became a bit distracted by the events that unfolded over the past few days as I had to travel around the city fighting for what was ours." He leaned back with his elbows upon the cement sidewalk.

"Loyalty has taken on quite a new form compared to what I've read in the journals of my ancestors. Honestly, before I even get into the examples you set out I want to point out one thing that I've noticed. It is similar to your first one, but with one difference. Today we see many more people requesting to leave for another crew or city than ever before. I've seen or read about people leaving and coming in many different cities. Many times they might not even be going there for any purpose other than to be with somebody they might know a bit better. You would think they'd at least be going somewhere else if they had a more promising future there." He sighed.

There were many people who were disagreeing with each other about the ideas of loyalty, how far it went, and how that loyalty may be null-and-void....

"I honestly don't believe that it is ever okay for somebody to join up and then leave without saying a word. That shows not only dis-loyalty, but some disrespect as well. If you're doing that then you clearly don't care enough to even talk to your leader or one of their hands. You believe you can just do what you want. The lack of communication in an attempt to improve your life where you are is disappointing. If you feel that maybe you made a mistake in choosing a home, then I'd say you should attempt to fix it first. If you cannot, then at least have the respect to discuss a transfer with those you work for. If you leave without saying a word then I'd deem that worthy of a bullet." He looked up at the sky as his thoughts ran through not only his own memories, but the words written down for him by his ancestors. 

"Now thinking about example two of your speech, that one I think is where I find some gray area. I don't think it is always as black and white as loyalty versus not being loyal. I do think that it would be respectful and a good idea for people to try talking to the other leaders or Godfather of their city. On the other hand, I think that many members of varying position in a crew may see stress or division forming in their city or for their Crew Leader. Maybe some major argument happens publicly or the Crew Leader sends a mass mail to their crew members JUST prior to retirement explaining why. Perhaps all these things point those members towards finding a home elsewhere. Possibly they deem the city to not be their home if their own Crew Leader did not wish to stay. Obviously if none of that is the case and the retirement comes out of nowhere at all, then I'd strongly suggest people try to stick it out with the city and rebuild what they lost. Basically, your second scenario has a lot of factors that could play into it which makes it hard to truly have a strong opinion one way or the other."

"Now your final scenario has definitely become something that is way too common in recent years. You should not be leaving your crew mid-war, especially in a position of leadership. To just leave and join up elsewhere rather than helping those who gave you a home and a leadership position, is just terrible. It's the worst case of disloyalty out of all your examples in my opinion. It does become even worse when you see those people take up a new position in leadership after showing such disloyalty. Again, to me this would be something worthy of a bullet." John shakes his head at the thought.

"Now, I don't think your views on this subject matter are outdated. Honestly I think I'd like to see stronger resistance to these things. One of my more recent ancestors dealt with a situation where a crew was established elsewhere and multiple members wished to leave his crew to join this new one. At first it was only one of them and he relented after multiple conversations. When more came forward he had enough and stated something similar to.....if my memory of the notes serves correctly 'It is not my job to fill other crews. You joined up here to help us build, where is the loyalty to this city?'. This was met with a few retirements so that their kin could try to find a life in that city which they themselves could not. It has become too common of a thought process to just leave whenever you want rather than staying loyal to where you joined up." John offered Zeitgeist a drink.

"It's sad though as I'm not sure how well we can combat such change in thought. I do think that there must be some compromise on the subject of transferring to other cities. If it happens, it must be done correctly as well as respectfully. But I would never be against cities working together to strongly limit this sort of behavior especially when it comes to leadership members or those who leave without a word." He smiled at some of the things he heard from others.

"I will agree though, that loyalty is basically a two way street. As a Crew Leader or a Godfather you do need to make sure you put in the effort to DESERVE the loyalty of the mafioso in your city. If you do nothing to deserve loyalty then you probably deserve the disloyalty. It can be a lot of time and effort to make most if not all members feel that loyalty, but that's part of your job. Just as it is expected of your crew members or city members to put in effort to display loyalty." With a few slow movements, he rose to his feet.

"At this point I'm tired and feel as though I'm rambling so I will leave it at that. I'm not here as much to debate too intensely if anyone disagrees with me. I know this is not a black and white subject as everyone has a different experiences throughout their life of crime that could push them to either end of the spectrum. Whether they would take a bullet for a crew leader or fire the bullet themselves. I'd enjoy seeing a bit of change in this area, but I won't get my hopes up too high." 

With that he walked over to a food stand in order to get something to eat after all the time running around fighting.....

Unfirtunally seems it like old times loyalty vanish more and more from many peoples minds. Real loyalty is not so easy to find either in here or around you out in todays world. Sad but true seems it like we go more and more into there all people shall think about them self and dont give a damn about anyine, also this is something very close to where the loyalty went.

My line has only been here a few years, but if I'm making a wager - I would say that there was disloyalty back in the day too.

Loyalty for me is a little more specific than a city.  I've always said that when you start out in this life - you can be loyal to one person.  After that, there's potential for it to get complicated.

I've watched other cities wipe out districts while the GFC watches.  For that matter, I've watched GFCs wipe out their own districts.  I've watched GFC's take out their own crew leaders.  I've watched people go to another city (which in and of itself may be construed as disloyalty to a city) only to wipe out the city that shipped them out.  Do these things make a member want to be loyal to a city?  I doubt it.  But really, the only point I am trying to make is the fact that no matter what choice you make in a given circumstance - it may be seen as disloyal by someone.  Do I accept any of the scenarios that you just described?  I doubt it.  But that's just my opinion - Who really gives a shit about that? 

So - to me, my loyalty lies with my Godmother.  My loyalty also lies to those who work underneath me - walking the walk and all that good stuff.   My loyalty lies with the other godfathers here.  It lies with my city mostly too.  But if you make me choose - well.... my godmother it is.  For better, for worse, through thick and thin - that's where it is unequivocally.

puff puff sip sip steps off the soapbox.

Swampy listens to Zeitgeist. Humored at this point by one who has no intentions to be less then a CL, Swampy continues to listen.

Scenario One: Were they bored?

I personally cannot say I experienced that situation because as a leader the entire family was included in all talks.

Scenario Two: The RH should have the ability to taking the family over. There is no such thing as finding 7 days which many do not honor.

Scenario Three: Is not acceptable. On these shores as of late, family above all does not exist. Most CL's/Godfathers  are authing under certain conditions and dictate who will be the RH. 

The ideal scenario is lost in the shuffle and all in the name of revenge and the diar need to be in power.

Alessandra Korunova listened with interest to her surrounding patrons. Everyone had different responses but they all mostly meant to say the same thing. She stood quietly and played with a loose strand of hair. Thoughts were racing in her mind. How did she feel about the scenarios that Zeitgest spoke about? Well people would find out today. After everyone was done she took a step forward and introduced herself before waving a hand in a shy manner. Hi I'm Alessandra, hope you don't mind but I'll also be voicing my own thoughts today. She paused her speech and waited for everyone to adjust to her words. Then she continued.

In the next few moments she began to feel herself getting irritated by actions of certain people in the past as well as in the present. She was very aware that her voice probably wouldn't be heard anyway. She was just a wise guy. Who would listen to her? But she had a voice - point blank - and she was going to use it. And try her best not to offend anyone... oh well.

In regards to scenario one, I'm standing here thinking how could anyone be the tiniest bit okay with that. Even though said earner hasn't been with family X for not even eight days, crewleader of family X took the time to message them as well as invite them to their crew. The least that the earner could do is have a proper discussion prior to moving families. It's shameful otherwise.

As for the second scenario posed, I am a little more acceptable with it. But I definitely think that if the Godfather of city X has a reputation for being very communicative with the members of their city, I feel like it will just come natural for members of city X to inquire with them. However if the Godfather of city X does not even make any or much effort to communicate then I can understand why they would want to move to a different city. 

She looked around and paused. People seemed to look down on her and disagree. Everyone is entitled to their opinion though, aren't they? 

And the last scenario honestly - sorry about the language - drives me fucking insane. It's becoming more common as the days go by and I'm trying to find out if there is any strict rules for this? I would like to know. What are people's thoughts? Everyone before me has said that it's a sign of disloyalty. And I want to add that it is not a good look especially for your future kins. I also feel like it's just unfair  for the other members in family Y who were hoping to get a hand position. Instead it got snatched by someone who recently just moved to family X from family X mid-war. I hate-.. Well. Hate is a strong word. I DISLIKE people who do this and I DISLIKE people who condone it. 

She stepped off to the side and shrugged her shoulders. Some things just needed to be addressed.