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Why do our standards keep falling? Started by: Ronin on Jan 07, '19 22:23

Listening to further input I applaud Meredith on her keen insight. Ronin can take lessons from her. She can put on a set of balls without being disrespectful. Instead Ronin twists most of her words to appease his self righteous self. 

Take the easy way out with the cliché "agree to disagree."

By the way it's Swampy, not old man. 

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Thank you for your highly valuable and insightful input, Swampy. You are a wonderful boy, old boy.

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If everyone around you performs at 20% of what is required to be truly relevant across the board, doing a mere 30% yourself is all that it takes to be ahead of the competition. Slipping standards is the result of ever less challenge that asks us to do a better job.

Whether we call things a clique, or accuse people to be afraid of innovation, there is one thing I’m sure of: Most people that fulfil a position of influence in this world care enough about it that they don’t appoint people to support them that are complete retards who are most likely going to drive things into the ground. People get put into their positions, because - regardless of their activity, compliments to others, earnings, words uttered and stu…. stu… stuttered - they are considered to be able to do a good job with whatever situation they might find themselves in. We might argue what’s considered good here, but that subjective. They get that confidence and I’m sure that if others were truly better, they’d get the opportunity instead. In the end, isn’t that how everyone that is part of “a clique” at one point got there? Because they impressed more than others.

Isn’t it strange that these cliques or all-to-familiar bloodlines commonly have ancestors who reached the highest of ranks, killed Godfathers, orchestrated wars, managed families and were engaged in public debate? Does any of that qualify them as good per say? Not at all, but spending a lot of time on the shady side of the law and enthusiasm doesn’t directly measure up against what such experienced lineages offer. Perhaps most of those lineages are not what they used to be anymore, but it’s fair to allow the idea that they might still outperform many within today’s society. That's sad for sure, but can we really blame any party here?


Rider sits down on a soapbox. Eats a sandwich and tells an unrelated story to a surprised passerby that listens out of respect, more than care. The cloud overhead are just like any other day. Similar like the news from yesterday. New words, same story. Things happen, but don't really affect. We go on.
 

Recognising the issue however, I think it’s fair to assess that plenty of people are far from inspirational these day. I’d love to see that change, but the solution isn’t for others to fuck off. It’s time for better people to step up the plate and do things that these unmotivated oldies can’t keep up with anymore. There’s nothing that prevents anyone from being the next lollipops and shoot some shit and brute-force change. Ronin, Meredith or others can identify all they want about lacking standards, but perhaps they should define what those high standards should be and go Colt Forty-Five on everyone that doesn’t meet them. Including their own backing. Including yours truly.

 

The standard within a society is commonly - disappointing as it may be - to aim to be better than the rest without all too much effort. As long as we all wander around in circles, eventually everyone will slow down their pace. But if we set a goal, there’s something to work for. Goals are pretty great, as it allows us to measure our own progression towards it. Personally, but also as a collective.

For example, we can say that each city should give a new lineage a chance at leading a family. But if the greater community defines that new leader doesn’t meet the standard, they should be removed. If a single city fails twice in an X period to deliver a up-to-standard auth, the other cities can remove them for not living up to the community standards. If after X times they do live up-to-standard it means they are a solid leader, which creates room for a new auth. Here’s your growing community.

 

It’s not about walking fast or slow. It’s about having a goal.
Expectations don’t mean shit if not meeting them doesn’t have repercussions

If we’d ever get a Godfather Council, that would be my request to them: Define a direction. Maintaining the status quo is nice and all, but hardly motivating people to step it up a notch. If we have a clear goal, it would be far more easier to identify those that actively contribute to that goal and enable them to do an even better job.

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"Thank you CloudRider, for your actual valuable and insightful input."

He grinned meekly.

"I would like to touch on something that you - and a few others - have said in this discussion.

RoninMeredith or others can identify all they want about lacking standards, but perhaps they should define what those high standards should be and go Colt Forty-Five on everyone that doesn’t meet them. Including their own backing. Including yours truly.

Perhaps that isn't the best way to go. At least not yet? Our world has always been predicated on blood and turnover, and blunt force can be effective, surely. But maybe there could be another solution, albeit a slower one. 

Again, the first step in fixing a problem is realizing there is one. If a godfather notices one of his leaders isn't pulling their weight, surely that godfather would say something? Lay out their expectations (if they somehow miraculously had not prior to authing) and tell the leader at hand that things needed to change if they were to continue representing the city. Then, after a few weeks, follow up with them - review where they have improved and where they still fall short. There is this amazing thing called mentoring that can go a very long way. Not all people are capable of it, but if you are not able to teach and improve your city for the better, perhaps you shouldn't be godfather at all?

And this could go the other way as well. If a leader who has busted ass and put in all the effort sees their godfather isn't deserving or isn't improving the city, would they be able to nut up and tell that godfather? Would the godfather be able to take the criticism? I have an ancestor who was in this very position, and he did not say anything to his godfather. Perhaps if he had, he'd have been able to spur a change? Or maybe he'd have died much younger than he did. It's hard to say in that kind of situation.

Sometimes blood and death are the best teacher, but I'd be willing to bet if we were more focused as a community on improving the community, we would have a much higher standard than we do right now.

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You're right that there are more options available to improve standards than rudely say "Improve or die". I like to put extremes out there in the debate though. Often chosen solutions are the middle ground of a conversation. By introducing extremes it will be more likely that any proposal to address the issue is more daring. The more daring or ground-breaking plans come with greater challenges, but also with greater rewards.

Now ideally people are motivated to meet expectations by default, but otherwise a little incentive can help. That doesn't necessary have to be a raised gun, but a council could for example identify the best and worst community representatives. The first group could be rewarded with the proceeds from the financial penalties given to the last.

Now this isn't the moment to come up with all kinds of wild plans.
As you said, the first step is realising there is an issue. Then if there's a collective agreement that we want to fix it, there will be plenty of plans possible. It all boils down to motivation, because there are plenty of destinations and plenty of routes towards them.

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Ronin, this is one of the best debates I've seen brought to the streets in a long, long time. Thank you for that- and I hope to see more like this, both from you and others. You've got a point, it's relevant, and you get discussion going by sharing your own thoughts. Don't see too many like this anymore.

I like your list of possible reasons for this; they seem to have some common ground as well. I'm also curious about potential solutions.

The Nature of Running a Crew Has Changed

- Decrease in crew size
- Districts opening, which caused more godfathers and therefore more auths


These are things that are beyond our control; there may be discussions on how to improve these things, but they should most likely take place in another venue.

Flaws in the Crewleader and/or their Preparation

- Some can't be around as often as leadership requires
- Some are afraid of speaking in the streets or have no presence
- A couple can't even form coherent sentences (Either due to lack of intelligence or English being a second language)
- Some don't know our world well enough and can't attract or teach others
- Some aren't prepared for the responsibility of leadership
- Increased pressure to auth new blood that hadn't really learned enough.

I'm curious as to whether common ground could be found on ways to improve any of these things.

Some things, like a lack of commitment, a lack of interest in learning one's responsibilities, or a lack of interest in learning how to communicate effectively, do not seem like "quick fixes"- but it strikes me that some of things could be improved.

How do our crewleaders learn how to be crewleaders? One would assume that they have mentors- but what do those mentors do to effectively prepare the people who want to learn? I've thought about putting together a collection of Leadership Papers- things to help prepare someone for a bold suit. Obviously, I don't consider myself a singular authority here; I'd want to compile information from many, many others. Would something like this be helpful? Or do these lessons need to be learned through experience alone? Or, even better, will someone else do this well so I don't have to?

Two other comments before I consider the many replies you've received.

First, I'd like to throw out one other possibility: many of our oldest, most distinguished bloodlines simply don't seem to be as interested anymore in running a crew. Some of them remain "lowly" wise guys, content with their lives. Others may allow themselves to serve as a hand or high ranking mafiosi, but have no interest in progressing further. This isn't true for every veteran, of course, but for many it seems like the bold suit isn't worth the hassle. Why is this? How could this be changed? Or is that a discussion from elsewhere?

Second... actually, I might spin this other point off into a separate statement elsewhere.

 

Tara steps back and listens to the many other responses.

HandsomeRob, I think your suggestion of the Godfather Council is an interesting one. You asked about the retire string of retirements; my best guess is that this could be connected with the relatively pace of our world. It use to be that you were lucky to live see the age of thirty or forty. Now it seems like people live to be 200 or 300 years old. In other words, I think people used to die before they got sick of their situation- whereas now, it's the opposite.

Cato, I think you make some excellent points. However, rather than jumping to "removing all of those not worthy of the bold suits" can we not establish what it is to be unworthy? If this real judgment is to take place, the ability to "move the goalposts" would seemingly be just as negative as not having standards at all. If one is going to judge others, they should be judged against a more objective standard than simply labeling someone as having "poor leadership" and removing them- even if some elements of strong/weak leadership are obvious to all. No one wants to see an exhaustive list of regulations and processes, but it seems like the establishing of overt standards would seemingly be a necessary component here. 

Meredith, others have addressed what you've said elsewhere, but I do think it's interesting that you stated "bring back the discussions that actually get people talking" in one of the best debates/discussions I can recall in recent memory. If discussions like these continue, and if crewleaders participate and thusly encourage and incentivize their members to do so, I suspect and hope we'll have more strong discussions moving forward.

And this could go the other way as well. If a leader who has busted ass and put in all the effort sees their godfather isn't deserving or isn't improving the city, would they be able to nut up and tell that godfather? Would the godfather be able to take the criticism? I have an ancestor who was in this very position, and he did not say anything to his godfather. Perhaps if he had, he'd have been able to spur a change? Or maybe he'd have died much younger than he did. It's hard to say in that kind of situation.

This is an excellent point, Ronin. The short answer is that no, I don't think most would speak up and, again no, I don't see most people taking criticism well. In my experience, more people put people around them that agree with them and make them feel good, rather than those who will challenge or critique them.

Ultimately, I agree with you that there are probably solutions that exist between "ignore the problem" and "shoot everyone who we think is doing a bad job. What are the standards for good leadership? What are the hallmarks of bad leadership? Where does one draw the line where action is required? Perhaps these questions could be posed in future street threads to reach some sort of consensus and then compiled for the betterment of our society.

Cheers again, Ronin, for the thoughtful and thought-provoking speech.

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There are so many elements to this discussion and fantastic points which people have brought up that I'm not even going to attempt to comment or mention them all, but I would like to throw my two cents in on a couple of things.

Firstly, I've seen a few people suggesting that we should attempt to enforce a minimum standard for crew leaders by removing them, violently or by other means, from the position if they are failing to meet that standard. However, probably the most pressing issue we face at the moment with regards to crew leaders, and the issue which seems to have prompted this discussion in the first place, is that too many of them are retiring too quickly. Not only would removing crew leaders who aren't performing not address this issue, since there's no indication that these retiring leaders are doing an especially bad job up until their retirement, but it exacerbates the turnover of crew leaders which is already too high. I'm not sure whether I'm for or against the idea generally, but it's hard to see how it will help with the problem of crew leaders retiring too young.

There's never going to be a one-size-fits-all solution for something like this, but something I would like to suggest is for us as a community to de-emphasize the role of crew leader or Godfather as the pinnacle of success in this world, or the ultimate goal that everyone should be aspiring towards. There are so many ways that members can help their city, so many roles that need to be filled for a family to thrive, which should command an equal amount of respect when done well as being a successful leader. I hear countless new associates telling me that their goal is to one day become a leader or a Godfather before they have even begun to experience what goes on in this world, or question whether being a leader is something they would enjoy or be good at. I feel that many of the problems our generation of crew leaders face are caused by people spending their entire lives working towards earning the position and never stopping to think about whether it's the right role for them. Perhaps if they did they would realise that they could be happier and more effective in a different position before they take the reigns to their own family, rather than a week or two after.

These are just my thoughts which I hope may make some small contribution to the debate, but I have enjoyed listening to and had my thinking challenged by many of the speakers here. And of course I'd like to thank Don Ronin for starting and providing a forum for this whole discussion. 

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*Zeitgeist had been sitting in a coffee shop across the street for some time watching the conversation and debate unfold, and had deliberately stayed away from engaging as it was an issue he felt incredibly strongly about, but in doing so he realised he would be part of the problem; leaders not standing up against declining standards and people enforcing things the old way, the hard way, the mafia way*

 

Ronin has made some very strong points here and he has a much stronger gift for political correctness and subtlety than I do most of the time. I think leadership is difficult, especially when there are so many more leaders to know these days and so many intricate relationships and niches to understand and know between them, most new leaders seem to get overwhelmed by it and simply don't bother to engage. A lot of these auth's are set up to fail, they don't have a mentor or someone competent to guide them, this was something an old style Godfather council would hopefully be able to address. If you are head of your city you need to make damn sure people have the support they need to ensure they build strong families and foundations in their respective districts.

 

My biggest issue currently is the truly disgusting amount of people "jumping ship", again this is a sign of weak leadership in my opinion. Please let it be known that should I wake up and one of my members has abandoned my family in the middle of the night and knowingly been taken in by another family without so much as a word from either party, an assassin will be submitted immediately. I'm not being unreasonable or draconian here, this is a simple matter of trust and respect. If we are to accept the way things are as the current norm why would people even bother recruiting and training civilians into this life? The best model would be to wait until these civilians have been trained and are making money already and just recruit them directly out of other families, this is already happening and crew leaders are flagrantly abusing the lax standards at the moment to exploit this. We need to draw a very thick line in the sand where this issue is concerned.

 

As Godmother ConstanceBonacieux has mentioned we have had exceptional new auths and there have been some very poor ones. We have a lot of districts and business is thriving in a lot more cities than usual, which does make it more difficult to ensure that every auth is quality, but we need to at the very least ensure they have a support structure that allows them the opportunity to succeed. This is currently not the case in every city and mafiosi with potential and skill are being denied opportunities to show what they can do whilst some leaders simply exist without making any contribution or impact to our cities at all. I was literally reviewing my contact book a few days ago when I noticed a name that was unfamiliar to me and to my surprise they were a leader in one of our cities. I have never heard a word from them in any way/shape/form and I was informed they had been a leader for "quite some time". 

 

*Zeitgeist looks around at some bloodlines his lineage had known for a long time HandsomeRob, Sharkita, Aloisus, Ronin, Space-pole and they all seemed to nod together*

 

Being a leader isn't fun or a "cushy" assignment, there is a serious commitment associated with it, we all want to look good in a nice shiny suit and call ourselves important. The harsh truth is these people need to either step down or be put down, we need to make way for people who want to be there, who want to work hard and who want to contribute.

 

I'd really like to see a Godfather council restored, and some real policies and minimum standards instituted and enforced.

 

*Zeitgeist sighs for a moment, before walking away from the crowd*

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