McAdams takes a step off the stoop he was sitting on and kicks over an empty crate and steps onto it.

Now I know I'm a mere thug and my word doesn't carry too much weight around this thing of ours but I have a....well a question but also a sort of debatable subject I'd like to bring up in the streets.

The crowd turns and listens to him to see what he has got to say.

Now what I'm bringing to the table today is simply business. Now I know this is a broad subject, but what I'm mainly going to concentrate on is the part of becoming a leader within this thing of ours. Now I know we have our system where you need the blessing of your Godfather or your Crew Leader to set up shop within a city. I totally understand this seeing as they are the people who are running the city. But what about the other cities? I know that at this moment the cities are mostly split up between the Godfathers for control. But isn't this the mafia? Where anybody who thinks they can achieve things should be able to run a "business" in a city that has nobody else doing business there? Well I don't know about you but that makes a lot of sense to me. But to everyone those who set up without an Auth are called a rouge. I know that in other situations people are called rouges but lets just keep on topic.

A rouge. It is a bit of an exaggeration. If this is the mafia then they should be allowed to do so. If they try to move in on your business then I see the reason of taking them out. But as long as they are just trying to make an earning within the city they set up in then they should be allowed to set up shop their and make some money. It's their choice. So if they fail or they make a bad decision along the way then they face the consequences. Why should every single Crew Leader be picked by the same people? I'm not saying that this is the motivation for the men that are in charge now. But this in my opinion probably started out of fear of people setting up that you didn't know so also you couldn't trust them. Then over time the leaders just got used to Authing people and shooting down anybody who set up without Auth.

In my opinion the whole Auth system is perfectly fine when it comes to a city that somebody already controls. But to say you control half of the cities and you get to choose who sets up a crew there or not is ridiculous. This is the mafia and we need to treat it as such. I'm not saying that every single person should set up a family because a lot of people are just not the Crew Leading type and it wouldn't work out so well for them. But people need to be allowed to have a chance in this thing of ours. I know there have been business ventures before where the Godfather of one city owned another and allowed people to apply for a spot there. But that just isn't the same as just setting up a crew. That is just exactly the same as getting Auth but with a tax and a very short leash.

Now I'd like to just hear your opinions on the whole matter. 

McAdams steps off the crate and wait to see if anybody has anything to say.

Rogue, I believe is the term? Or at least thats what I've read in my parents journals.

If a Godfather/leader has control over a city, why do you feel that anyone can just set up for the sake of it? Trust is major part of buisness, so if those in charge dont know and cant trust some random person that sets up shop, they have to protect their family and remove the possible threat BEFORE something happens.

Other than that, your reasoning isn't so bad, but I would also like to add that unlike most regime's my bloodlines have been part of, the current crop seem to give a lot of people a chance and dont just give auth to those they are friends with in the coffee shops - so again in that respect your argument is somewhat flawed as these people are already being given a chance, just normally under the role of a Captain in the same city as their godfather, which is actually beneficial to someone who's bloodline has no experience of running a family.

Nobody should be able to set up shop in a city controlled by a Godfather really. But I find it to be ridiculous that they can own more than just their city. And if you went and traced most Crew Leaders bloodlines through, you would find most of them to have been given Auth time and time again. So don't really try and tell me that they do not give Auth to friends. It happens and to dismiss that is just a complete lie and a slap in the face to the people they try to tell that to. I know that there are some people given a chance to set up a crew that haven't before. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But more often than not. The job goes to somebody that they are friends with.

http://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/117464

Feel free to take a read through some past documented issues. Extremely familiar to what you're getting at now actually.

Tipping his hat McDermott walks off minding his own.

SlNGER listens to McAdams.

May i disagree with you for a moment brother?

After seeing McAdams nod SlNGER smiles.

Its just like countries in the sense of the classic old days. One King Conquers another King he gets what he owns. His men bled and died for what they fought for it only is right that the men are free to explore their new found territory. Now About the tracing bloodlines i find that interesting, sure the most of us want to be crew leaders yet if you were a Godfather like any in the past would you risk starting your city up with Crew Leaders who have never had a relative even becomming a leader before them? If i was a Godfather There is no doubt that all of my leaders in the city would be hand picked from me after i knew the lives of their fathers. There is an aincent saying, To really know a man you must know his father and his father before him. Its a sicilian saying. I hope i made a fair opposition.

Catching his hear McDermott turns back around to return on the conversation.

Nobody should be able to set up shop in a city controlled by a Godfather really. But I find it to be ridiculous that they can own more than just their city. And if you went and traced most Crew Leaders bloodlines through, you would find most of them to have been given Auth time and time again. So don't really try and tell me that they do not give Auth to friends. It happens and to dismiss that is just a complete lie and a slap in the face to the people they try to tell that to. I know that there are some people given a chance to set up a crew that haven't before. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But more often than not. The job goes to somebody that they are friends with.

Reply by: McAdams at Dec 12, '10 00:05

By setting up in an empty city without discussing it with other leaders causes the problem you're still leaving the crew you're in. If you get permission both ways it's authed, but by leaving and just going to a city you're dismissing the rules we have set. Although I have argued in favor of what you speak, it's not how business is done.

Taking a breath McDermott looks back at McAdams.

Please, feel free to trace my bloodline. Tell me what you find... okay now that you're done let's look over it. I, am a Don for Chicago. My father was a Capo CL, his father a RHM Made man, his father a Consigliere CL, his father a RHM Boss, his father a RHM Consigliere, his father a Don CL.... Now that we've gone back quite a few generations we know my history. What's this show? I've been trusted time and time again in leadership roles as well as a button man. Does this mean friends auth friends though? No.

Out of the three times of being a crew leader all three came from different people. The first two my bloodline had worked for their bosses for a good chunk of time. To say that people are "handed" (whether you used that directly it is implied) auth implies handed rank, which I will say now, is a slap in my face. Now the third time was after a war split the entire country and was in need of a rebuild, which my family luckily was trusted with working a city with two other leaders.

Taking another deep breath with a disgusted look on his face McDermott stares down McAdams.

Now, I kept this all extremely short but let's add this all up. Anywhere was I handed anything? No. Those that know my bloodline know how hard I work and how passionate my family is about this thing of ours. So to sit back and say what you've said is completely bullshit. Also, maybe look at what those who are getting authed so much are doing? Maybe they simply out work the others? Maybe they offer skills others don't and that's why they pop up so often?

...I'll leave this subject here as I feel I've already spent more than enough time. Good day.

As always McDermott, you get my point across much better than I could. Very well said sir.

Well. That's true that some people get authed generations after generations, but I honestly don't think it's linked to their friends. Or only to that. It's probably more due to the fact that they're simply... good leaders. When you have somebody, trusted enough, who you know have the skills to achieve what you want... Of course, it's a good choice to auth that person, especially when you also know he/she is hard working and experienced. And what about the others you might say ? Well, to be honest, I don't remember to have seen really hard working people not being awarded by what they've wanted one day or another. Especially these last times, where hundreds of opportunities are offered to new mobsters.

Anyway, to come back to the main topic, rogues are especially known for shooting at people, and thus for buying a HQ to gain some gun power... and not really for trying to establish an honorable business in a city by creating their own family. Generally, people having this wish work hard for their crewleader, show their potential, do everything of what is expected from them and even more, and one time or another... Like I said earlier, get rewarded. And it's nearly the only way to make sure for a godfather/crewleader that he's not doing a big mistake (and even by doing so, a mistake is not always avoided).

But what about people having the desire to establish in a city with no crime regime ? Shouldn't they have the right to do it, to take their chance ?
Well, as said before, one thing is that it would be a potential threat to the godfather owning this city (and the other ones, as nobody really knows who this lambda person is). It's not good for trust, thus not good for business at all.

Moreover, these cities are often, if not always, owned by a godfather, that's absolutely true. But they earned these cities after wars, generally involving losses, so they deserve them. Anybody who doesn't agree with that is free to try to change the situation, it has already been seen in the past, but that's not really interesting for the topic. So it's their cities, thus their rules. In addition to that, it would also be a financial loss for them if anybody could set up there without having to pay taxes (and that's why the system of paying to set up has already been experienced, it was a way to offer a chance to anybody ... having the necessary funds). And as said before, it wouldn't be good for trust, thus business. Two ways in one to lose money.

Last thing is that there aren't many ways to know if somebody has the required skills to set up. One, you know him, and we're back at the beginning of the topic. Two, they show you they're worth it, and thus, you need to have them under your wing for some time, meaning you have to auth them personally. The idea of a unknown mafioso setting up is, in some ways, understandable considering the mafia principles. But it's also, in a way, forbidden by them, as stated before. Trust, honor, respect and hard work, these are the keys, and the system actually in place is just a way to make sure that these principles are respected.

One aspect that I think that most are forgetting is that of "sponsorship."  Much like our crew leaders enable us to commit crimes and make money throughout the country without fear (for the most part) of being murdered without cause, so does the support of a godfather enable a crew leader to run his or her own family.

If, as you have suggested, cities were "neutral," and any man or woman with the proper rank and resources were able to set up a headquarters, what's to stop more powerful crew leaders from instantly destroying them?  It would effectively become a mad and unproductive free-for-all for the unclaimed territory.  This, I think, is where the importance of "auth" comes in.  Rather than saying, "This man has authorized me to run my own crew," one is saying, "This man (or woman) has my back.  Attack me, and you are attacking him or her."  This, I think, is where the line between "rogue" and "unathorized headquarters" is blurred.  Both, without the strength and support of an established city, effectively stand for "free kill."

Ah, yes, and, as McDermott has pointed out, becoming made means that you are a part of that family for life.  You can't exactly leave whenever you feel like, and forming your own family effectively makes you a part of the competition.  The only time you set up a family of your own is when it is at the request of your boss.

I am new as well here,

And if i can be of a hint for you...

As much as Rousseau Jean Jacques was talking about a social contract between individuals wihtin a nation and territory, the world of mafia is the same..except there are rules unwritten and know from COUTUME and uses.

As in a normal society doing some sort of democracy is fine..by voting and all...and you elect whomever fit the choice of majority...

Here in the Underground economical world, there are Rules, and decision by ONe (one being the top elite old school that rule the backbone of our economy)

Therefor you Ought to live and die by thoses rules, once in a mafia world, your for ever bond to theses rules.

1. respect

2. honnor.

3. loyalty

4. omerta.

Explanations:

1: you have to respect the ones that have been walking and constructing b4 you the very first steppes of this world...therefor ASK permission.

2: because you have to honnor your father..hereby your Boss, Don, Godfather, family. And honnor your word as this is what keeps you from being dead or not.

3: Once you make a choice you stick to it, you dont change family (unless blood families and agreed between godfather...ie: diplomates and consig)

betrayal=death. (shoot 1st then talk later ...at funeral.)

4: you cant tell, see, know and let thoses spread around. if your tongue is too long then wrap it around your neck. The more you say the more you have to remain silent, the more people belive you knwo but they aint sure you do...the moore respect you get.

conclusion:

There are rules and hierarchy and conduct to live by...this is our world. Respect thoses rules, make yourself a name and reputation and you ll get your autorisation.

respect

AL D.

I never said that nobody has earned it. Yes their are a few who work hard and earn their auth. But a lot of times people get killed as a leader and come back knowing that if they join a certain person that they will get an auth once they rank up high enough. Do not tell me that there isn't a single Leader that is currently out there that hasn't been authed by somebody due to their long friendship. And do you know that for a fact? No. All you have told me is what you know about your own achievments. Do I know? Yes. I've even had many friends that came back after being killed and immediently knew who they were going to join because that person was their friend and they knew they would give them Auth.

Now, I've never said that nobody went out and just didn't earn it. But there are many that get by a lot easier than the rest of us because of their friends within the game. If you try to say that doesn't happen then you are oblivious to a lot of things that go on here in this thing of ours. I wasn't trying to make this thread into an argument. I had wanted people's opinion on why people who want to shouldn't be able to go off and start their own business somewhere else without a auth. Because if you looked into the real mafia world you would see that this happened a lot.

If you're powerful enough, you can go off and start your own crew. But when you take such actions into your own hands, you had better be able to defend you, and defend those who come to you, seeking shelter. If you're strong enough, youll survive. If not, youll become another dead crewleader who no one will remember most likely.

I'm sure the nail has been hit - but I'll rant anyhow. At present the only folks allowed to setup shop are mademan (and above). Now, as a mademan - your a truly part of your family and it often comes with spike of increased privilege and equally so responsibility.  One can argue the don is the face of each syndicate, but even so far the mademen - who play an important role in representing the family and protecting it's interests.

So, for a lone soldier to simply leave without the blessing of his leader and start his own thing - is a symbolic middle finger to his don and family. Whatever his intention may be, the harm was already done to his family of origin and can such tarnish to one's reputation go unanswered?

McAdams:

"Do not tell me that there isn't a single Leader that is currently out there that hasn't been authed by somebody due to their long friendship."

Not a single one?  Come on.  You need only to look at McDermott's testimony.  And I can tell you fro my own experience and the experience of my friends that this not always the case.  Assuming that you are speaking of friendships which span generations.  But the merit of appointing the sons and daughters of fallen friends to positions of power has been debated many times. I believe that the reasoning behind this course of action has been solidly defended and established.

"But a lot of times people get killed as a leader and come back knowing that if they join a certain person that they will get an auth once they rank up high enough."

I don't believe that anyone takes this for granted in the way that you suggest.  There is MUCH more consideration (timing, real estate, who currently holds the power/influence) that goes into an authorization.

I've stated my opinion. There ARE people who get where they are only because of friendship. I don't care who tells me that it doesn't happen. Because it is very clear that it does. And I know that there is timing and planning into the auth. I never said there wasn't. But what I'm saying is that there are people who get the auth because of their friendship. If you want to argue that and say that it doesn't happen then I'm just not even going to respond anymore. This is off the topic of my thread. So believe what you want but I do not care if you think I'm wrong.

:Kramer laughs:

And I never disagreed with that point, McAdams.  I agree with you on that point.  I don't think that anyone could argue against it.  And, as I've said, that point has been debated many times, and the reasoning behind those decisions has been pretty well established.  What I've argued, however, and what I disagree with, are other points that you've made, which I have highlighted above.

As you'll see, I first responded to your original inquiry.  I think it is you, more than anyone, who has detracted from your original point.

I will say this. It is quite clear that what McAdams is saying has a lot of truth. Some may not be entirely true but for the most part it is. One thing he failed to mention though was when, like he said a friends friend comes back he just mails the person and they mail that person xxxx amount of dollars to buy BG's. I see people running around with Insane Body guards all the time now. I think its funny they need that many. But I guess now days its a requirement for up and coming leaders. Just look at the ones with a lot of Body guards in the beginning and tell me later on if they become Crew leaders...