Following the BG discussion on IRC, I have thrown together ideas of my own and of others to develop what I think would be the best move forward on the BG platform. Enjoy.

Damage dealt on BG WACK

The cap is currently a maximum of 100hp dealt to a maximum of 1 bg. This would change to a maximum of 250hp dealt to an unlimited amount of BGs. If your gun is good enough to have reached the max hp limit of damage dealt: you may kill 2 fully trained bgs and wound another for 50hp. Or, you may kill 12 bgs who are only trained to 20hp as well as hitting another for 10hp. If your gun hasn't hit the max HP limit, you might only do 100hp damage, or 167hp, or 4hp. or note at all! Either way, the damage you deal is tied to your wack ability, and if you kill a BG and have damage left over, you will continue to the 'next bg in line'. A new wack message would have to be devised when you hit more than one BG, and the details would show up in your personals as normal, such as:

Jan 01, '11 00:01 You shot and wounded Sprozza's Bodyguard.

Jan 01, '11 00:01 You killed Sprozza's Bodyguard.

Jan 01, '11 00:01 You killed Sprozza's Bodyguard.



Arguably, this doesn't make much RP sense. Neither does 200 bgs standing around 1 person.
I personally feel this is the most easy to implement idea as it would not adversely affect anyone currently playing as it will not have any affect at all at such a time a bg is killed. It is fairest on everyone as the damage you deal is directly tied into the work you have invested into training your gun.

Max initial HP per rank

The 'skill' of a bg is directly tied into the rank you purchased it at. At thug your 750k bg has a max HP of 20. At Gangster, your 1.25 million bg has a max HP of 30. RIght up to Don/GF, where your 5.25 mill bg has a max HP of 100. (A Don bg should also be 100 hp in my opinion, considering only 8 people in the game can hold a GF position. Therefore, no increase in cost or effectiveness from Don to GF). As the cost increases, it is pretty much a case of 500k per additional 10HP vitality, perhaps an option could be added that when you are promoted, you have the option of 'upgrading your bgs' by paying 500k per bg to increase their HP by 10.

For me, this is the best way to do things as it simply becomes a case of the more highly ranked you are, the more well equipped you can be. It stops people from simply demoting to thug and bankrolling their private armies which has been accepted as a problem. I don't believe it would hugely impact credit sales as ultimately there is no BG cap, you can still go to town if you wish.

The major con of this idea is that it can't be put into place without shitting on the current little guys. Of the current IWP players, I'd wager at least 90% bought their bgs in bulk at a low rank, for the current players not to be able to do this is unfair. Additionally, the end result is that the price of BGS will increase a lot. To have a 100hp bg you must either buy it at Don, or increase it's hp by 500k per rank until you reach Don.

Sadly the maths of how to work out what compensation is needed to people, or how to make this workable without a reset, is frankly beyond me. Any feedback would be massively appreciated.

As far as I'm concerned, increasing the damage you can deal as you increase your wack is a no brainer. Increasing the HP you can acquire by rank goes hand in hand with this; the harder you work at training your gun, the more HP you can take away. The harder you work at ranking, the more HP you can receive. However, as mentioned, the second suggestion is not at all easy to implement. Any suggestions on this would be hugely accepted.

Other ideas suggested and my brief thoughts on them

Flat BG cap Wouldn't work. A flat cap on wack skill would have to be introduced also. Long term factor = less credits sold due to mias being unkillable due to maxed wack stat. No good.

Cap on number of bgs bought in a timeframe Short-to-mid term this would work. Long term, people will simply buy them 'in parts'. 25 bgs per one timeframe. Demote. 25 per next time frame. etc.,

Demotions carry more severe penalty, ie drop in wack stat This could work. It probably won't. People will bypass it by either i)buying their bgs when initally a thug. ii)Take the hit on their wackstat knowing it will lead to a huge boost of D stat. When bgs are purchased they will simply begin again on their wack.

I wrote this in a hurry and didn't proof it much, but I'd like to get it into the forum whilst the thoughts are still in my head, so apologies for any typos et cetera.

Discuss.

The 'skill' of a bg is directly tied into the rank you purchased it at. At thug your 750k bg has a max HP of 20. At Gangster, your 1.25 million bg has a max HP of 30. RIght up to Don/GF, where your 5.25 mill bg has a max HP of 100. (A Don bg should also be 100 hp in my opinion, considering only 8 people in the game can hold a GF position. Therefore, no increase in cost or effectiveness from Don to GF). As the cost increases, it is pretty much a case of 500k per additional 10HP vitality, perhaps an option could be added that when you are promoted, you have the option of 'upgrading your bgs' by paying 500k per bg to increase their HP by 10.

Feel free to hump my face anytime. This is an incredible suggestion.

Personally I still believe the best and fairest idea that resolves all the issues i see is a cap per time period, alongside Izzy's tweaks to the demotion feature.

Step One: These are offset for 80 days, allowing everyone alive now to rank to Don, be demoted to Thug, BG up and rank back to Don, there-by eliminating the need to compensate anyone.

Step Two: Demotion to Thug (or any rank), resets you to the base level for that rank, with a loss of all priviledges, and skill progression. If you are a don with 40 units, and 200 kill gun and you are demoted to Thug, you now have 5 units no gun and no kills, as wellas loosing your DFP. After all demotion is supposed to be a punishment.
Pros: Your 40 days playing are wasted, and you have to start again like a n00b.
Cons: Your 40 days playing are wasted, and you have to start again like a n00b.

Step Three: Bodyguards are brought into line with MIAs, IE you can only buy 3 BGs every 2 days. End of story. Costs are kept as they are now. 750k at thug, 1.25 mill at gangster, 1.75 mill at goomba, 2.25 mill at earner etc. If you want 100 BGs this will take you a minimum of 67 days to achieve. Further more, unless you are going to get a demotion every 2 days, the costs will be higher. If you do get the demotion every 2 days then you have just wasted 67 days unable to benefit from training your gun, gaining drug units etc.
Pros: No limits to BG numbers, so Dons, and GFs or other long lived characters can still be IWP etc. There is no need to alter ratios of MIAs or gun skill because peoples defences can still be at the level they are now. There will be significantly less demotion for the purpose of BG acquisition due to penalization and time required. this should have no effect on people who are friendless or contactless as they will still be able to fund their own BGs. the only penalization is to those who currently abuse the demotion facility in order to bolster their defences. Also, progression of Attack and defense will be more fluid, as opposed to buying 100 bgs at thug and needing a well seasoned gun to kill you (125+ kills). Realism - I'd like to know where the agency is where even today I can walk in and hire 100 Bgs in an instant. Also as your power and influence grows, so will your BG count as opposed to Thugs walking around with more protection than consiglieres and Dons. People buying BGs at higher prices will also take more money out of the game, something admin always want to do.
Cons: People will cry because they can't donate $500 in one go and go from being a target that no one likes cos they are an ass, to being just someone no one likes because their defense is un-naturally high. However, as you can still sell off your credits to fund BG training, and buy BGs I don't see it having too much of an adverse effect on donations. Besides which credits are still required for so many other things, such as MIAs, Jail breaks and now NPMs.

Of course I may have overlooked something here, and if I have I'd love to talk it over with you all, and see if I can resolve any misgivings you may have.

Simple answer to a simple problem: Just make BGs 5 Million to buy at all ranks or another flat rate that seems fair to everyone.

A flat rate is the only fair solution that will stop people from exploiting the system.

Question Tim... how do you deal with those who already have 100, 200 or more BGs bought at 750k each compared to those who now have to buy at $5 mill each?

How can u kill 12 ppl with 1 bullet thats impossible even if they are with low health

I do like both the first two suggestions, damage dealt and max HP limit. I must say I like the Max HP Limit idea more, as this does look to be able to erase the advantage of being demoted for bG's, as if people want BG's with any sort of health, they will still have to pay the same amount for them if they had been demoted or not.

I initially like the damage dealt idea, although I could see it becoming a problem, for someone to put tens of millions of dollars into BG's, and for them to be killed with one shot, is quite ridiculous in my opinion. Although you may argue that if someone has put that much work into their gun, why shouldn't they be able to do that much damage? Unless this person has some kind of FMJ bullets or something of that nature, I don't see them killing more than 1 BG.

How can u kill 12 ppl with 1 bullet thats impossible even if they are with low health

Reply by: Donnie-Brasco at Dec 31, '10 15:43

Unrealistic yes! But are you saying 200BGs around one person is realistic?

Well Benton, we could have their BGs removed and compensate them for the price they paid for them (not sure if the game keeps track of this info).

They could buy new BGs at he new, flat rate once they are paid.

Or we could just let those with BGs get grandfathered in. Personally, I think the change should be made and let everyone who played by the rules the way they were stay with what they have. In time, things will even themselves out so that obtaining protection can be more of an independent endeavor. Those who make their own money will be able to buy the same amount of protection as those that are gifted money thus making it fair for the individual and CL alike.

Damage dealt on BG WACK

The cap is currently a maximum of 100hp dealt to a maximum of 1 bg. This would change to a maximum of 250hp dealt to an unlimited amount of BGs. If your gun is good enough to have reached the max hp limit of damage dealt: you may kill 2 fully trained bgs and wound another for 50hp. Or, you may kill 12 bgs who are only trained to 20hp as well as hitting another for 10hp. If your gun hasn't hit the max HP limit, you might only do 100hp damage, or 167hp, or 4hp. or note at all! Either way, the damage you deal is tied to your wack ability, and if you kill a BG and have damage left over, you will continue to the 'next bg in line'. A new wack message would have to be devised when you hit more than one BG, and the details would show up in your personals as normal, such as:

Jan 01, '11 00:01 You shot and wounded Sprozza's Bodyguard.

Jan 01, '11 00:01 You killed Sprozza's Bodyguard.

Jan 01, '11 00:01 You killed Sprozza's Bodyguard.

Arguably, this doesn't make much RP sense. Neither does 200 bgs standing around 1 person. I personally feel this is the most easy to implement idea as it would not adversely affect anyone currently playing as it will not have any affect at all at such a time a bg is killed. It is fairest on everyone as the damage you deal is directly tied into the work you have invested into training your gun.

-- Response -- This idea is top notch! In terms of the RP sense, it fits well. When you are going out to kill a gangster for any reason you would clearly have many bullets, meaning you could hit more than one person/BG. Simple.

However, Why put a max on the hit at 250HP? People will constantly be working on increasing wack, therefor should reap the benefits of not having a cap on their wack. If you have a player who is strong enough to hit somebody who is crazily defended, they would have had to work months on getting their wack up to that level.

Further discussion on this would be appreciated. -- End --

Max initial HP per rank

The 'skill' of a bg is directly tied into the rank you purchased it at. At thug your 750k bg has a max HP of 20. At Gangster, your 1.25 million bg has a max HP of 30. RIght up to Don/GF, where your 5.25 mill bg has a max HP of 100. (A Don bg should also be 100 hp in my opinion, considering only 8 people in the game can hold a GF position. Therefore, no increase in cost or effectiveness from Don to GF). As the cost increases, it is pretty much a case of 500k per additional 10HP vitality, perhaps an option could be added that when you are promoted, you have the option of 'upgrading your bgs' by paying 500k per bg to increase their HP by 10.

-- Response -- I also like the sound of this idea too. I think it would work well. -- End --

The major con of this idea is that it can't be put into place without shitting on the current little guys. Of the current IWP players, I'd wager at least 90% bought their bgs in bulk at a low rank, for the current players not to be able to do this is unfair. Additionally, the end result is that the price of BGS will increase a lot. To have a 100hp bg you must either buy it at Don, or increase it's hp by 500k per rank until you reach Don.

Sadly the maths of how to work out what compensation is needed to people, or how to make this workable without a reset, is frankly beyond me. Any feedback would be massively appreciated.

As far as I'm concerned, increasing the damage you can deal as you increase your wack is a no brainer. Increasing the HP you can acquire by rank goes hand in hand with this; the harder you work at training your gun, the more HP you can take away. The harder you work at ranking, the more HP you can receive. However, as mentioned, the second suggestion is not at all easy to implement. Any suggestions on this would be hugely accepted.

-- Response -- There may be a solution to this. If there is a log of who paid what for their BG's (I would assume there is no such log, if there is then happy days) With this info, work out what price people paid for their BG's, and deduct the total cost away as HP.

Lets say the total price you would pay for a fully trained BG would be 5.25k, take off 750k and divide the balance by 500k, plus 1 then multiply by 10 to have the correct HP as per the price paid.

For Example: Sprozza buys the following: 1 BG at Thug costing 750k, ((((750,000 - 750,000) / 500,000)+1)*10)= 10HP 1 BG at Gangster costing 1.25m ((((1,250,000 - 750,000) / 500,000)+1)*10)= 20HP 1 BG at Goomba costing 1.75m ((((1,750,000 - 750,000) / 500,000)+1)*10)= 30HP ... ... ... 1 BG at Don costing 5.25m ((((5,250,000 - 750,000) / 500,000)+1)*10)= 100HP

An easier way would be if there was a list of who bought what BGs at which rank. Saves the trouble of the above.. but meh..

That way, the high ranks such as Don would still need to pay 4.25 mill to upgrade their BGs to the max HP the same as a lower rank such as a Goomba would pay the 1 mill per BG to upgrade to their current max HP -- End --

Overall a good few suggestions which could word extremely well.

As someone who never buys bg's i must admit i would be put of buying bgs in future although i am in favour of increased BG damage to multiple targets.   I know how some train there gun and survive wars so do deserve credit for it.  However, i believe there has to be a cap on damage otherwise suddenly will be no point of buying bg's as one or two shots of a good gun and will put people of buying bgs in general.

Health limits would be a good money sink for the game, and limit bg amounts or effectiveness and make people plan better how many bgs to have.  As for bg limits in any way, i wish we never had them at all to be honest; some sort of time phase would be better, as how many people are likely to try a shot at some of our higher ranks if they suddenly have no bg's with a sudden compensation scheme to buy new bgs.  suddenly a lot of people become vulnerable to a gun thats not to hard to build.