Part 1 - A New Forum:

With the increasing amount of writers that we have around I think it would be a good idea to add another Forum. There is a loose definition for what we count as "in-character" and "OOC" that has often been called into question and has been the topic of a few debates in recent times. Given that I have been a robot running around our Streets, loosely based on the 1495 humanoid robot designed by Divinci - I have a bit broader scope than most do as it pertains to the aforementioned topic of IC/OOC.

That having been said, there are a growing number of threads in the Streets that have next to no relevancy to the Mafia or the community. 

I believe that the writers of the community should have their own section where they can openly (to an extent) write with less eyes on them.

I believe that the Streets should be reserved for;

Announcements in regards to new crews/policies.

• Protection Statements.
• Debates related to the Mafia lifestyle.
• Newspapers.
• Pre/Post War Speeches.
• Character-ran contests.
• Business promotions. 
• Weddings between two real characters. 

There are currently, quite frankly, an overwhelming number of threads that meet the standards of being "In-Character" that I believe we should have an addition forum for. Things such as; 

• Character Development.
• Games.
• Entire threads of inner monologue.
• Weddings between a character and an NPC.

From what I've read, the general consensus is that people's main concern for the way that things are currently constructed is that it's an 'exploitation of the VIP Credit System'. I, however, don't think that the people who partake in this type of writing should necessarily take an enormous hit on the credits or Info boosts that I'm sure a lot of people have become accustomed to. Which is what leads me to...

Part 2 - Altering the VIP system;

You get out what you put in and what comes out of it. Essentially, the goal would be to further reward those who put in effort that gets noticed.

A heated debate between members of multiple cities in the Streets should get you more Street cred than an enormous thread explaining how you came to be in this life.

There are epic speeches from years ago that are still being talked about today and there are astounding amounts of threads left unviewed save for the person/people who wrote it. 

As stated, I don't believe that those who want to write (in character) should take an enormous hit, however I do think it necessary to shift how the VIP System works. Threads that qualify under Part 1's definition of the Streets should be receiving a higher VIP score as they are directly related to large parts of the community as a whole, whereas many threads not under those definitions do no such thing. 

I would like to see the threads that would be in this New Forum receive 50% VIP Score, but they would still receive 100% of the Vision benefits associated with posting. This may sound harsh to some, but I believe firmly that things which gain more traction (which is entirely proven to be the case with Part 1's definition of the Streets) should net more in the form of the rewards than things that don't. 

For the writers who are concerned about taking a hit on Credits - consider this... there was a time when we didn't get Credits at all for posting and there would still be a Forum where you can post in for full value. 

The game bleeds credits; MRBot, Promo Codes, frequent other giveaways, the Marketplace. I would like to see it stop bleeding for the things that have, in my opinion, less relevancy.

Pros:

• Still allows a Forum for people to develop their characters etc while getting Vision boosts and some VIP Credit. 
• Rewards those who, in general, put forth threads in which more people can participate.
• Makes it much easier for people to find important information.
• Dilutes the game of some credits. 

Cons: 

• A lot of people will have to write other things to qualify for the full amount of VIP Credit. 
• Coding in a new Forum with a new VIP Scoring value of 50%. 

There is a feature intended on adding in "Tags" to the end of threads, which will alleviate some of the concern in regards to 'ease of finding important information', however that doesn't address the main point here which would be the VIP Scoring. 

I like it overall, the only issue that I would see come out of it is that the new meta for posting would be to go onto the streets and cause more arguments. I still personally view the debates as less mafia than anything else that we do, how many time did random gangsters and Don's argue with one another on how the Don's are running their families? I personally believe that 95% of all debates have no place in the Streets and should be in OOC, but that's not what we're discussing here.

I would say make it instead that any consecutive post without a response take a 50% hit after the initial post that wasn't responded to and that number (50%) continues to fall with every post you continue to write after the second until you're not receiving VIP Credits at all, it stops people from telling stories to themselves but also stops those who write three messages one after another to address three different people which I feel is the same sort of gaming the system.

In addition to Part 1 - Auth Threads/Crew Moving threads would remain in the Streets. 

I still personally view the debates as less mafia than anything else that we do, how many time did random gangsters and Don's argue with one another on how the Don's are running their families? I personally believe that 95% of all debates have no place in the Streets and should be in OOC, but that's not what we're discussing here.

Strongly disagree, this is a social game and interaction should be encouraged, not hidden away. If we push realism too far, everything in the game can be put into question. There wouldn't be any speeches, or newspapers, or contests, or even a public platform to say anything at all. 

As per the main point, it is difficult to draw a line in the sand between characters being mafia robots and talking animals as opposed to werewolves and vampires but it's the gaming of the system while adding nothing of value that is offensive to a lot of people. These story threads aren't even open to participation. It is very difficult for me to believe they are done for the writers enjoyment, given the speed, volume and lack of quality at which they are produced. 

Melinda Stratten walked into the manor, feeling and smell the faint trace of anger and then she smelt blood, she ran into the living room and saw her husband. What the hell had happened? She rushed over to himself, noticing the burning wound. Melinda looked down, this would have been a good time, she looked down at her hand and her claws had unearthed...she dug her hand into the wound, removing the bullet.

She had herself a small lighter before thrusting it towards the wound, healing him as her husband soon sprang to life and roared with all his might as the very building shook to the core as he soon collapsed back on the floor She smiled down at him, this would have been very easy, she had her chance but he deserved better than to be killed when he was unconscious, she had a word to say to Peter Hale, this war was going to be just getting started then.

This is very, very bad writing, but ability shouldn't be a measure by which we determine who can and cannot post in the streets. What needs to be highlighted is how rushed and teeming with mistakes it is. Why is that relevant? Because it is one 64 posts and 6 threads the writer has published in 4 days, all of which consist of a series of rapidly-pasted story segments, one after the other. The only post by another person in his threads was to ask him what he was doing. 

It doesn't take a detective to figure out what is happening here but I'm not sold on creating new forums or separating content more specifically just because some have found a way to exploit the system. However, having seen the game-changing amounts of credits being handed out to the people exploiting it, we need to see a change to the reward system soon. I thought Sisyphus made a very reasonable suggestion that consecutive posts by the same person take a significant and increasingly severe value hit. It would be a start. 

This, however, would not affect cases like this thread, where 45 posts were pasted in the space of 10 minutes by an alternating pair of 400-year old vampires. My question is, if all of this is pre-written, it is not open to participation, has no relevance to any in-game character, event, history or function, is not read by anyone given it's view count does not change by more than 5-10 after it has been posted, and - with zero exceptions - is never added to again by its authors, a) what place does it have in the Streets, b) what reason would it be in the Streets, besides the obvious?

If it is simply for the enjoyment of the writer, nothing that it achieves cannot also be accomplished in the Back Alley, especially given how irrelevant it is to the game and the closed nature of the userbase's ability to interact with it.

I have seen the argument - most recently, Isadora calling Kuku out in her Op-Ed - that this blatant gaming of the credit lottery is somehow justified by others who frequent the streets being motivated by the same benefits but the fact is that regardless of your beliefs about the general tenor of Kuku's content, everything he produces is directly relevant to the game and more often than not inspires social interaction between users (however fraught - again, the tone is irrelevant). In other words, it could not be more of a false equivalency. 

I am very conflicted with this suggestion as I'm not totally against having a split in regards to what goes in the streets and what goes elsewhere. I do not want to see the support for this grow as a way to push out the people who enjoy writing their own stories by people who go an entire run with something like a "0/4" thread and post count. There are just many in this game who enjoy just earning money, shooting their gun, and chatting with friends rather than ever putting any effort into the RP side of the game. This is a TEXT based game after all so it is odd to me how sour some have gotten that people still want to use it as such. That is not me saying you HAVE to or SHOULD write, but if you choose not to then why should you be policing those who choose to write? (This is not directed at everyone who posts or comments on this thread in support, just a statement that needs to be made.)

Now I am not saying there aren't ever people out there gaming the system or posting an unusual amount in a thread in an unusually short amount of time. Those people do exist and I think they are actually good at blurring the lines between them and people who write very quickly for enjoyment. We do not have any guarantee at how long our characters will be alive and for some that means you want to really delve into what your characters story could be before that happens. If you take your time with it and move too slowly then you may only get the chance to do an introductory story and maybe one or two others before ending up in the obits. 

So, while it may look like all those who write a large amount in short times are 'gaming the system', we are just pushing them all into the same category. I do not think that is fair since it tends (not always) to be done by those who write very little or never at all. 

I'd also like to look at comments by Zapata:

My question is, if all of this is pre-written, it is not open to participation, has no relevance to any in-game character, event, history or function, is not read by anyone given it's view count does not change by more than 5-10 after it has been posted, and - with zero exceptions - is never added to again by its authors,....

Some time ago, perhaps almost 2-3 years ago now. We had a lot of issues of people who would jump into others writing completely derailing it. There was a call for the ability to lock your own threads or 'invite' specific people to write in them. There may have even been a look at an alternate forum or way to tag/label your thread with drop down options. This got scoffed at by some and viewed as unnecessary by others. So the solution was to allow people to write in the back alley forum before moving it to the streets. They would have a certain amount of time to move it before they lost the ability to earn anything from it (VIP credits). So for some that meant safety with their RP/Stories where nobody could randomly jump in and start shooting when they didn't want to be shooting (or insert any other random thing a mafioso could do). Others viewed this as a step in the right direction, but now if they wanted to write a lot and not get interrupted they would have to do it quickly. Which meant a higher chance for mistakes or for it too possibly look a bit rushed in general. 

So I think again, we have a blurred line between those writing for legitimate enjoyment and those who are actually gaming the system.

Secondly on that comment...."has no relevance to any in-game character, event, history, or function". 

Does it not matter or have relevance to the writer and their own RP backstory in this TEXT based game? Now I'm not debating the fact of whether you support somebody writing from the perspective of a vampire. That is up to the creator of their own content and it is also up to you to just not read it if you don't like it. I just don't see how it can have zero relevance to anybody if those people put in the time and enjoyment of creating the story. It may also build up that persons story for when they interact and RP with other members of the game. 

If it is simply for the enjoyment of the writer, nothing that it achieves cannot also be accomplished in the Back Alley, especially given how irrelevant it is to the game and the closed nature of the userbase's ability to interact with it.

So...should the only people benefiting from VIP credits be CL's and hands making announcements? Or the few who rush to start a debate that has been had a million times by now? I'm not sure what the point would be to shun people who enjoy writing into the back alley. I know it would not happen, but not sure what value that has being part of this suggestions discussion. Not everything in the Streets Forum needs to be open for everyone to interact with. Plenty of it is there just for people to read. I mean, Speeches and Auth Threads are really just one decent starting post with a group of people all posting the same thing in different ways. 

"Congrats!"....."Thanks for letting us know the reasons!"...."Those reasons are bullshit!"....etc.

So I just think that some of those threads we call relevant, tend to be just as irrelevant and filled with unnecessary bullshit as the ones you seem to dislike. This also plays into this idea that the 'new thread' should have a 50% hit to VIP Credits. We shouldn't be giving 100% to people who post a Auth Thread and get 15 or so of the people in their city to post different versions of congratulations and 50% to people who genuinely put in a ton of effort and planning to a story. This will largely skew the system in favor of the leadership who will MOSTLY be the ones posting in the Streets Forum.

I think part of the reason we have strayed so far from just the usual mafioso is partially due to the slow build up of accepting anything that isn't just a persons name. For years we have had people use odd/interesting words as names and then their suits have matched the level of odd. Those people get attached to those names and use them over and over again for years. If you join up with this game you see such names and go "well I can be Frodo from Lord of the Rings then since they clearly do not take names seriously on this game." 

I personally have no issue with that, but it has become part of the conversation and I want to address it. I think what makes people not question what sort of backstory you have is if you do it well enough or it just doesn't fall outside their comfort zone. For example, I was on my last character called BudKnight. This in a mafia setting was quite ridiculous. What I did though was make it obvious how ridiculous it was in my stories and posts. I placed him in the time setting of the game and just went with it. Nobody seemed to complain which was most likely due to the fact that he was a beer related character (most of us like beer) and probably that I put a large effort into each story/post without letting them get too long. I also decided to throw my hat into the newspaper arena with "The Dilly Philly Gazette" and again I got no real complaints....only support. Even though I was a man in a giant beer themed knights suit I was given support. Why? Because people looked at the length, organization, and effort of the paper and though it was well done. They also felt comfortable and enjoyed the idea of BudKnight from the commercials being in the streets of MR.

So I think that perhaps (now getting a bit more on track with talking about specifics of the suggestion) rather than taking away rewards/percentages from people who only write by themselves we could rework it to based on effort. If somebody posts a thread with 8 replies that are all done by themselves I do not think they should be punished severely for that. For the following reasons:

1) They may not HAVE anyone to write with.

2) They may not WANT anyone to write with them on that story or any story. That should be their choice.

3) They may have too many anxieties or worries of asking another to write with them so they stick to writing by themselves.

There are probably more reasons that people have, but those are the three main important ones I could think of and wanted to note. 

Now, one thing that I worry about with a suggestion like this is what if we do it and we go through another regime similar to Berserker's? Where street postings by leadership are basically non-existent. The streets forum would be almost dead if not completely dead. Now I know this is an extreme, but it is not the only time I've ever seen such a leadership group that ignores talking to the people. 

Now, I do enjoy the split you have made with what would be included in those threads. It makes sense from what you are suggesting is the issue. I have never been against such a split so that people don't lose certain threads in the sea that is RP/writing. Although just as a small point I'd say that weddings should be grouped together with the character development. Not sure why it wouldn't be included with that sort of thing as it is just another development in their characters story. 

From what I've read, the general consensus is that people's main concern for the way that things are currently constructed is that it's an 'exploitation of the VIP Credit System'. I, however, don't think that the people who partake in this type of writing should necessarily take an enormous hit on the credits or Info boosts that I'm sure a lot of people have become accustomed to.

I do think that we probably have more people who have cheated the system of credits or info boost using the business district rather than the Streets so I do not think that there should be any reductions to what is posted in the streets to be honest. Except maybe if there is a change to the measure of effort somebody puts into their posts (as you pointed out). So I would have to say its a -1 for me in regards to any reduction to VIP credits based on just the fact of what category your writing falls under.

If anything we should be looking more at just splitting up the streets forum and making some alterations to the Business District and how that forum adds to the VIP rankings, VIP credits, and info boosts. There are so many people who go there and put minimal effort into it. Essentially ordering a slice of pizza and then moving on to the next restaurant to eat more food. Some will go to a city and post in 5 businesses as soon as they land with minimal effort. 

Now, I know that the business district is a bit different and you do not want these LENGTHY posts everywhere that are longer than the initial business thread. But somehow we should be again....looking at the effort people put in and how it is measured and factored in. I don't know the exact math/coding that goes into how it is all measured out and paid out so it is hard for me to really give a solid suggestion.

At most I would just say that the longer the post is or the more consecutive replies they have to another person should give them more of a boost. So for example....

Person A posts at 10 businesses in a city after they just landed there.

Person B posts 10 times at one business, but rotating with another player or multiple players. 

Person C posts 10 times at one business, but by themselves with NPC characters they've made up for that interaction.

The person who would 'get more' out of their work/effort would be Person B. Person C would get a slight edge on Person A....and Person A would get almost nothing. Now I know the biggest issue here will be if the business district is lacking in businesses owned by living accounts or if it is run by an active person who is responding to their guests. So, perhaps this can also impact the person who created the business.

If somebody creates a business and never posts to it themselves then perhaps that is where we see Sisyphus' sort of solution come into play. The more posts at your business without you replying, the less you really get out of it. For example you start with whatever '100%' reward would be on your business at the first post by somebody. If it goes X amount of posts without you posting then you get a incrementally decreased reward until it is nothing. This way we can avoid people who go and post businesses in every city, but only participate in a couple of them. 

I would say that Sisyphus has some credit to be had to his idea, but I do not think such a staggering drop in percentage is warranted after just the initial post. It would have to be a bit of a more 'controlled drop' I believe otherwise we will fully discourage anyone who (as I pointed out earlier) has nobody to write with or wants to write with nobody else. I think people should have free choice to write by themselves if they want to or have to.

So, overall after this lengthy post in which I probably made mistakes, misread something somebody else said, or possibly repeated myself....

I'd give a +1 to splitting the forums in the way described by Zoom (except I'd include player to player weddings in the separate forum from the streets).

I just cannot get behind reducing what people get in rewards for writing in this 'new' forum due to a few bad apples who are ACTUALLY gaming the system. We cannot punish the many based on the few who hide among the RP people well. I also just cannot see the value in giving more credits/VIP standing, etc. to a streets forum that will become mostly a tool for only people who hold leadership roles. People in leadership already get a large sum of money/credits during their runs. (Yes I know, some people are pious and angels who give out just about everything they get....but many are not.) So -1 for anything related to reducing the VIP rewards given to those who focus mostly on just character development and RP. (Unless that change is purely an effort based evaluation change.)

I understand that the game bleeds credits, but I don't see what the value is in choosing to go after those who write to help plug one of the holes. Especially since it seems to be because there are just a core group of people who almost never write and like to complain about those who do. Again, just because you support this thread does not mean my last comment is about you. There are just clearly those out there who essentially never visit the Streets or Business District. The most you'll see them writing is in the Outside Forum to keep up their hustle streak.

I do enjoy this topic and I believe there ARE changes to be made here. I just do not enjoy seeing all these large percentage dips for those who write for their character development and their own enjoyment. It's a slippery slope to start adjusting how it all works with the forums. If we let it keep going then people will keep gaming the system, but if we change it too much we will see the forums slowly die with inactivity. I for one would rather see a plethora of activity where I CAN CHOOSE what I click on to read rather than forums where I see weeks old threads still sitting on page 1. 

Always wondered why we just didn't have a simple system that looked like this:

Isadora Post = VIP pts & Entry to the lottery

Isadora Post = No Points as no other person has interacted between person's posts

Isadora post = No Points as no other person has interacted between posts

Bob's Post = VIP pts & Entry to the lottery

Isadora's Post = VIP pts & Entry to the lottery

Joe's Post = VIP pts & Entry to the lottery

Isadora Post = VIP pts & Entry to the lottery

Isadora Post = No Points as no other person has interacted between person's posts

Isadora post = No Points as no other person has interacted between posts

In my honest opinion, the bigger problem than content (cause if you don't like what someone is writing or how well they write it - don't read their shit... it's kinda clear what you're going to get from some writers after a while isn't it?) is whether or not a thread is there to entertain the writer or serve the community.

I think threads that are there to serve the community, open to the community and encourage the involvement of others... maybe those get the rewards?

As a writer, I have no issue with something I write alone as a journal not earning me points or entries to the ViP daily lottery (as obviously I wrote a journal-style post for my own edification or character development.)  But so long as one or more other players are engaging in a thread it seems to me that the person has served the purpose of entertaining someone (or ideally many someones) in the community. 

I agree with you, Zapata. I do believe that creating a conversation is a noble (ehh, pushing it) thing and shouldn't be relegated to OOC, it was more or less an attempt at making a point in a hastily made idea that I threw together to cast doubt on this suggestion because I didn't quite feel right about splitting up the forums in the first place.

I would say there are only very few people actively gaming the system at any given time in a negative way and I personally believe the worst offenders are those who do so in the business districts and not the streets themselves, which already as far as I'm aware come with less VIP Points which leads to less credits in the first place. There have been people with 200+ post counts and very few of them going above a single paragraph yet they would still receive well over 20% of the total credit pool. I have admittedly tried doing this once when I was attempting to shine a light on the people doing this, and it took a lot out of me; thinking of forty different unique ways to order a coffee and leave isn't as easy as one might imagine.

and the funny thing is that my idea wouldn't have even stopped these people, as they typically hit up a different business with each post or will roleplay with a friend. While I believe this is wrong, the alternative that fixes the complaints is still turning off the credits and converting everything back into a ghost town. Before they were added it was getting so bad in the streets and nothing was being posted to the point that all of the debates were about how to bring them back to life, and now they're teeming with activity but not 100% of them are the drama type that certain people like, it must all be nuked back to the ground?

I don't know what the answer would be if we really attempted to crack down on people fucking with the system, but I doubt this would be it. Isadora's looks closest to what I was envisioning as a fix, but like I said this still won't stop most of the issues with the VIP system being abused.

First, I like to build my gun and shoot things. I like vast amounts of cash and power. I'm sure there are quite a few like me out there. Some like to RP, some don't. Nevertheless, as a person who doesn't do the whole RP aspect of this game nor type up much shit in the forums, I'll toss in my two cents.

I agree with Zoom as to splitting up the Streets forum. The main reason I don't go in there anymore is because there's simply too much spam and asshattery that has nothing to do with the current game environment. When I go to the streets, I want to know why Philly was taken out. Or which Godfathers are fighting for power and why. Who stabbed who in the back. I don't care about who you are or what your character's background is. The Streets should be for "game news."

As to VIP bonuses, credits, vision and what not, I don't care. The water is muddy and I like having clean shoes.

I don't mean to be blunt. But Zoom is right on making a new forum to keep it limited to certain topics related to current in-game topics.