I may not be a criminal, but I do see this as a terrible situation. You're fresh off the boat and wandering the streets of this country, and suddenly you're bombarded with mails and contracts that you're to sign in blood? It's a damning situation if I've ever seen one. I was appalled that many of the people who were drooling at the bit for me to join their families were the Right hand of the crewleader.

Why would I ever want to help you out if you are acting like nothing more than a starving dog at the end of his leash with a bone 2 inches too far away?

What is there in your family that is worth me joining you? By joining you I am dedicating my life to your cause. So what the hell is your cause exactly? Personally when I landed on these shores I had a letter left to me from my father instructing me on exactly how to enter into this world, and who would be a good match for my particular skills. But mine is not always the case. There are a few people who join our shores every day who have no family lineage on these shores. These people may feel a bit skittish about talking to others, let alone having their inbox filled with drooling beast fiends.

And what is the point of whoring new members, anyway? My family has had crewleaders, and multiple crew sponsors in their lineage, and not once have we relied on whoring to fill our quota.

To each is their own, but I will tell you this: It looks bad. It looks bad on you, it looks bad on your family, and people lose respect for you when you do it. If you think all of that is worth it, do it. No one is going to stop you. But if you actually believe that respect is what this thing of ours is driven on, then you should think twice before member whoring.

*Beaten.

No "i".

I feel honored BettyPage! 

Enzyte starts waving like the queen of england to all his big fans out there.

On the subject matter at hand, it's an unfortunate thing of ours that plays such a minor role. I can see why people do it, and while it may make you look bad all parties seem to move on quickly. Then again, I've never been one to care about perception anyways.

Enzyte's pants fall down to the ankles as his suspenders break. Then a car shoots by and sprays water up on him through a splash.

I'd still consider this a good day.

Kurtz listened to the young lady make her articulate observations. He sipped his coffee and stood by while the crowd came forward to have their say on the matter. It wasn't an unfamiliar discussion but it was being conducted in a thoughtful manner so he decided to make a couple of observations of his own.

Firstly, TJ, you make a damn good point. It kind of sums up why I don't try and recruit people down at he docks. I mean, most of us have been to Ellis Island at some point. Either in this life or the history of our bloodlines. Its a horrendous place. Marched around by the suited and booted, pushed into lines, processed and limed, stamped and clamped. Its a horrible process. The last thing you want when they finally throw you out onto the docks is a wave of people shoving contracts in your face. I think most people landing on those docks just need time to breathe. A glass of water and a local paper. You are right TJ, anyone coming up to me that way would just repel me too.

Turning to Mrs-Doubtfire he goes on

My dear I have had the same experiences with new arrivals. I have noticed someone wandering around, almost two days old with no family. I have mailed them simply to point out that they should try and find shelter before their time of protection ends, only to get a reply of vitriolic abuse. On further inquiry I have found in less than 48 hours these individuals have been bombarded by that many attempts to conscript them into families, that they assume any mail coming from a member of our world is another attempted contract. It has taken me a couple of mails to point out that I couldn't care less what decision they made. And that I was only trying to point them in the right direction to find the information they needed, to establish their own opinion and make their own decision. A couple were genuinely amazed that I had no interest in offering them a contract. Its a sad state of affairs but life is rough. These individuals will all go through this once during their bloodline's experiences. Fortunately its only ever going to confuse and bewilder people once.

Looking back at the rest of the gathering, he finishes.

If I could make a fervent prayer to the community as a whole on this subject, it would simply be this:

If you are going to talk to new arrivals, talk to them. Don't just stuff contracts in their faces. Ask if they need any help, sure. Offer to show them how to find the information they need, sure. Present them with their various options, sure. Once they understand, leave them in peace to make their own decisions, definitely.

I echo what Kurtz has said - but I would add the following caveat.  New crews are at a distinct disadvantage - now I know that people will say that they should have thought of this before they went bold, but the facts are that there are some high profile bloodlines in this thing that will always have people flocking to them.  I think a re-alignment is needed.  The bigger cities should have some crews that essentially are for guys that haven't yet got their button.  These associates could prove their worth before moving onwards and upwards - the same with the bosses of these families.

Benton wandered into the street and listened to the conversation unfold before him. Waiting for a lull before making his own points, he takes a brief opportunity to straightenhis red serge tunic.

It seems that member shoring will always be one of the banes of our existence. However at the risk of sounding pedantic I would like to point out that whore refers to the member getting the so called "free" invite and not the person doing the inviting. The term originates from the verb 'to whore' Which would make the people doing it more akin to pimps or madams rather than whores themselves. Those who accept the invites are the ones who are essentially selling themselves.

Benton looks at the bored faces in front of him and decides to get on to his main points.

Personally I see nothing wrong with this practice. If you wish to sully your family name by sending out random invites then that is your prerogative. Likewise if you wish to work for a family you know nothing about and with rules and regulations you may not agree with without taking the effort to find out about them then again that is your decision. It let's me know what kind of person you are and I can then choose to avoid doing business with you. People who accept random invites have no self worth and as such I choose to treat them like something I stepped in and have to scrape from the sole of my High Browns.

Call me old fashioned if you will, but I believe if someone can't invest a little time and effort to apply for an associates position within an established crime syndicate whose goals closely mirror their own then they are just as likely to be as lazy once in the family that whores them and just as likely to desert said family when the proverbial excrement hits the fan. Whores and the families who whore them don't affect me or the great family I work for and they are well suited to each other. Just don't be surprised that your whored members are weak earners or desert you when a war breaks out.

Perhaps I'm old school.  I think there's a right way and a wrong way to do things. 

Talking in the third person - wrong way to do things.  ;)  but to each his own. 

And member-whoring - is the wrong way to do things.  And even if zerk wouldn't have come out and said he was the one - I think we still could have guessed it was him simply by that way he talks.  Fantastic.  But I'm glad he put himself out there and said it was him.  Because now there can be that meaningful debate. 

Why is it wrong to member-whore?  And for those who think it's okay - why do you think it's okay?  Please, debate amongst yourselves. 

There are a lot of reasons why I think it's wrong.  I'll just discuss one here so as to save time and people from leaving when I'm talking.  I long for those times when people had to work for a family.  I appreciated those days when somebody fresh off the boat would have to prove he was worthy.  Now, everything is handed to those fresh off the boat.  And I think there are better ways to teach than by giving so much. 

But, perhaps, circumstances require extreme measures. 

But for those who say this topic is a horse that's been beaten to death - I think you're wrong too.  If there is a problem, but no solution, then that problem should be discussed and discussed and discussed until there is a solution. 

So I, for one, hope this debate rages on.  And people start discussing some solutions.

Like for that person who talked the difference between recruiting and whoring - I think we should explore that issue further. 

In the past my ancestors would send out a helpful letter with tips and tricks on how to become successful. Nowhere in this letter was there any attempt to encourage the recipient to join their family. In fact, it was clearly stated that the letter was not an attempt to lure them into a family that wasn't suited for them. It told them to take their time, shop around..

In the end a Civilian IS the hottest commodity in our world. A Civilian, Petty Thief, Thug, and even young Gangsters can take the time to get to know people. However, this doesn't happen when they are inundated with promises of glory and riches the moment they get off the boat. Some are even given the impression that they will die if they don't accept the first offer of employment. I know of people that received so many offers it drove them away. I know of others that sat back and let the offers roll in, sold themselves to the highest bidder, then after ranking up with no more than minimum effort gained the trust of the leader.. So much so that they were given their own chance to lead only to either turn out to be complete disappointments and embarrassing their city or worse, betraying the trust of those that trusted them and burying a knife deep into the back of the leader that kept them safe and employed.

The pros and cons of Member.. Pimping? Being a Member.. John?

She winks at Mr. Frazer and smiles.

More members equal more money and more protection... If they are active and contribute.
More members a city is viewed as stronger.
Sadly, this is also taken into consideration.. More members that go inactive means more sponsored targets to shoot at without getting into trouble.

Quantity over quality..

The cons?

More chances of being betrayed.
More chances of idle people sitting, or worse sleeping, around doing nothing to help with finances taking up places that could be filled with more productive and hardworking members...
Instead of active, healthy members contributing to the safety of a family there are bodies just laying around and in reality weighing it down.
Lack of education for those truly new to this world. More members means more teachers and there are obviously not enough of those in some families.

She shuts up before she begins to sound ranty and smiles.

I could go on and on with the cons, yet I cannot come up with any more pros. Is it really worth it? Is it worth putting your family at risk by giving anyone a job without question or time taken to grow to know them?

How many leaders are willing to put the lives of their beloved and most trusted members on the line for those that were recruited without caution, thought, or effort?

How many leaders have died because of some randomly recruited person who never interacts with the family fucks up?

If someone has the beginnings of a solution, there will never be a fully functional solution that eliminates the practice 100%, or reason that the practice of "member whoring" is good for a family please speak here, tell us.

Until then, people will continue to make the same decisions and what was once looked upon as an honour will continue to be just another thing like a tin can in the Streets being kicked around by children. Something without meaning.

Vicious_J listens to every one of the speakers and finds that all of them have valid points. Not one to speak publicaly, this topic was something of interest to her and she decides to give her two cents in. She takes a nervous breath to give her point de vue...here goes.

Recruiting is probably one of the most difficult aspects of this thing of ours. We need to do our duties as honored family members and get new blood into our family. There is a thin line to cross, you approach a civilian and do not know what is waiting for you. More often than not, we offer assistance, try to get a conversation going and get less than respectful replies as they expect to be member whored. We don't push, if they choose another family, so be it. I don't understand why we have to put ourselves into such a situation.

Like alot of you, I come from a bloodline that started BEFORE sponcers were introduced and it many ways, I long for those days again. We worked for what we accomplished, nothing was handed to us and we had pride. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that todays recruits all have it easy, I'm just an aging woman reminiscing.


Jessy ramages through her purse and finds a flyer she found on the docks. After smoothing out the creases, she hold it up...

This is what the fresh off the boaters receive when they step down.

"You're going to have to impress them, you know. Any idiot these days who wants to make some quick cash can find a place to work. But they'll die just as quickly and probably without anyone noticing. You could be better than that. Tell them who you are and what you can do for them. They're not in this for fun, you know. Show them you have what it takes to make it here. Unless you can't make it. Then I wouldn't waste their time.

THEY have to impress us, not the other way around. THEY have to tell us what they can do, not the other way around. THEY have to show us the money, not the other way around.

Jessy lights a cigarette and nods as she snaps her lighter shut.

This is my personal and respectful point of vue.

I apologise for how that ended, I seem to have the hiccups.

How many leaders have died because of some randomly recruited person who never interacts with the family fucks up?

None. The more appropriate question is how many leaders were put in positions they didn't know how to handle due to a randomly recruited no name C? The significant difference being that the responsibility doesn't lie with any random person but with their leader. Obviously if a leader takes too many people who don't know how to handle themselves theres a significant risk but its the leader's responsibility to understand that and discuss it with the people he trusts to be sponsors within his or her family.

Anyway back to the subject, my bloodline hasn't been sent a recruitment mail in years as far as the journals of my ancestors claim so I may not necessarily be as well-versed on the issue as some others and there are alot of factors in play that I won't bother to rehash since they have been completely stated.

The argument I see most often regarding this is between people who blur the line between recruitment and whoring. Some people believe whoring is initiating contact with anyone off the boat. Then there people who see a mass produced flyer in the mail as normal recruiting. Last but not least theres the people who will send a one line mail inviting someone to join along with an invite. One man's whoring is another's recruiting and vice versa.

So how do you sort out the issue? It very well may never be agreed upon completely. There are too many varying opinions about the topic to ever come to an absolute consensus. Maybe the time will come when the Godfathers feel it necessary to have a standard that conforms with what was declared by city hall but that wouldn't necessarily change anything as it would have to be fairly liberal given whats been said by city hall. At least thats my understanding, if I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

Anyway, for the sake of continuing the discussion I'll leave this quote with you since I feel its relevant to the topic.

All there is to it is having friends, doing things for people, and then later on they'll do things for you... You can't coerce everyone into doing things for you - you can't make them work for you. Wherever you see a man bulldozing everybody he doesn't last long.

Taking a long drag of his cigarette before snuffing it out with his foot Sho smiles at the number of people who have shown up to discuss their opinion on the ever prevalent topic of "member-whoreing"

I have to agree with the majority of the setiment here, it seems that there is an ever increasing problem of contracts for employment being handed out to those fresh off the boat. One could almost go as far as to say that they are being handed out on a whim with no regard to the poor frightened immigrants. There was a time in the not too distant past when my great great grandfather was the first of our family to make his way to these shores with only a few dollars in his pocket and a smile on his face as he made his way around town putting in his resume hoping to find a job. Now when pass the docks it's like a slave auction, the bright eyed new comers are being forced to believe that they should follow the (wo)man who offers them the most money. But what does one gain from that? The horror stories that I hear in the local coffee shops is that of despair. The people who followed the (wo)man with the deep pocket were merely shown a way back to a head quarters and then left to fend for themselves. No guidance, no moaral support, just a fear that if they don't reach their daily quota their family members will be making funeral arrangements.

I too was blessed to arrive here with the journals and address books of my families lineage, and had grown up knowing the children of my father's partners in crime and there was no doubt that I would follow the path laid out before me by the workings of my ancestors. I know that is the case for many of us here, but it is my desire that as people's lineage come and go from these shores they are left with the notes from their ancestors to follow in their footsteps rather than the letters of warning to stay clear of someone.

Sinking his way back into the crowd that has formed he reaches into his jacket pocket and retrieves his flask. After taking a swig he lights a cigarette and continues about his daily tasks.

Without really hearing the other discussions on the matter, it seems like once again the issue has come to the forefront of a few people's minds one again. I won't comment on whether or not Raven's account is false or otherwise - it can't be proven. What can be commented on is the fact that these messages do exist out in the public. New immigrants here are absolutely flooded with mails. For those brief moments, they're the eyes and ears of the world. For those brief moment, every one seems to want to hit up a conversation with them. Of course, these conversations somehow begin with a frame of reference that they need help. Help, I think, is one of the largest cop-outs in this thing of ours, and for me, personally, it's the largest reaason I absolutely detest the practice.


Others will point to the fact that the practice of member whoring is unrealistic - after all, considering our structure, who on earth would sit out on the shores for hours at a time serving as nothing more than a tour guide (albeit, with ulterior motives) for people they have never met before? The answer is, no one. Do you think the entire reason for them lounging around looking for fresh bait is to simply offer them help to the nearest hotel? No. And herein lies my problem. Recruiting disguised by the friendly face of help. I have no problem with someone offering help to a person in need of knowing their way around things. What I do take issue with is people not having the common decency to make their intentions clear from the beginning that it's ultimately the goal of getting these people into your family. People cast wide nets out to these people. Some may be disastrous members. Others may be quite decent. But in the end, it all comes down to the bottom line - cash. What was once an institution that required forethought put into the civilian's part in their attempts to curry enough favor to grant an invite has been completely replaced with the opposite. We know treat civilians, of all people, as the commodity. We shove opportunity down their throats each and every day in the vain hope that one of them will be receptive enough to us to give you the honor of representing them. It also extends to the more experienced bloodlines that have been roaming this country for decades. When one falls, it seems almost every opportunistic member is there to give them their comforting shoulder.. and an invite. We treat these people like they're free agents. We bribe them with incentives of bodyguards, favoured treatment, cash - in the hopes that one of them will be so kind as to grace your presence in your HQ. For the bloodlines perceived to be most prestigious, we, quite literally, treat these people like paid athletes.


Alas, the chances of anything being changed are slim. When it comes to the bottom line, people are more than willing to sacrifice reality and social structure in return for human capital. While the implications of this sudden reverse in social structure is something to seriously ponder, my main issue with this system is that it for the very large part of it, it's a dishonest system. If your main goal is to recruit someone, have the common decency to make your intentions known from the beginning. Don't masquerade as if you were offering help and it just so happened that they would happen to fit perfectly in your family.


A lot of people complain about the degradation of society and their yearning for the old days. We won't get those days back. But if someone wants to point to the main reason our society has changed - for arguably the worse - one doesn't need to point further than our docks, where people are shoving silver spoons in people's mouths, one pandered "help" offer at a time.

Gaius had been happy to stand on the side listening to the various points of view being presented. However when it came round to Solastalgia's point, he felt compelled to speak up.

Firstly, I'd like to thank Raven for opening this discussion and maintaining a civil tone throughout.
Ok, Now Solastalgia, about your comments..

Without really hearing the other discussions on the matter, it seems like once again the issue has come to the forefront of a few people's minds one again. I won't comment on whether or not Raven's account is false or otherwise

Right off the bat you let us all know you haven't had the common decency to listen to any of the points raised. Thats disrespectful to everyone that has participated, to say the least. Then you say you won't comment on whether Raven is telling the truth or not, when, if you had bothered to listen to even a couple of the speakers, you would have seen the culprit Raven mentioned, come forward and confess. Really, this is not a good basis for making any point of your own. No one would have any obligation to listen to what you have said after starting out like that. Out of sheer surprise and curiosity however, I did. And so we move on...

Do you think the entire reason for them lounging around looking for fresh bait is to simply offer them help to the nearest hotel? No. And herein lies my problem. Recruiting disguised by the friendly face of help. I have no problem with someone offering help to a person in need of knowing their way around things. What I do take issue with is people not having the common decency to make their intentions clear from the beginning that it's ultimately the goal of getting these people into your family.

I can say as a matter of standard practice, I regularly offer help to new arrivals. I can also say quite honestly that I do not do it with the sole intention of conscripting them into my family. If they need help, I try to point them in the right direction. If my conversations with them lead me to think there is potential in the individual, I may offer them the opportunity to work for me. If I don't, I won't. Nothing is set in stone. The initial conversations are as helpful for me as they are for the new arrivals. They get help, I get a feel for who they are as people.

While the implications of this sudden reverse in social structure is something to seriously ponder, my main issue with this system is that it for the very large part of it, it's a dishonest system. If your main goal is to recruit someone, have the common decency to make your intentions known from the beginning. Don't masquerade as if you were offering help and it just so happened that they would happen to fit perfectly in your family.

This isn't a sudden reverse in social structure. Yes I'll grant you it isn't the way things used to be in our particular community but there is nothing un-mafioso about mobsters finding young people to get involved in low level crime and extortion. It has long been practiced, used as a test to see what the youngsters in question were made of. This has been happening since the late 1800s with the old Irish gangs and the early Italians. Also, you say you make your intentions clear from the beginning? really? Sorry but thats just ridiculous. Firstly as I said I have no intention of telling some young wetback that if he gives me the right impression I might just give him a slot in my family. And secondly I'm a fucking criminal. My line of work is extortion, robbery, trafficking and murder. You think I'm going to wander down the street chest out singing about how up-front and noble I am? Get a grip.

For all of this, as hard as it might be for you to believe, I agree with the underlying sentiment of what you said. I personally loathe those individuals who thrust contracts into people's faces without even saying hello. I worry as much as anyone for the torrent of attention that any new arrival gets when they land on the docks. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with offering help to an individual if they have been wandering around for a while looking lost and clearly not speaking to anyone.

These individuals must find the help they need. To acquire understanding enough to survive. To live in our world, to work and make their own way. So they can, in time, enrich and contribute to our collective endeavors. And so our community swells. And so all of our lives are richer for it.

There is a bigger picture. Remember that.

Well Gaius, you caught me on the front of being lazy. At the risk of commenting on something that quite frankly I should have waited on until the morning, I've had my mind on this particular issue for quite some time. And granted, I normally filter out most of the conversation considering it's nothing more than arguments and rebuttals interjected with small bouts of support or otherwise. Indeed, I'l likely not enter such a fiery topic without doing a bit of research beforehand.


To get back on point, this is a reverse in structure, and yes, I am referring to this community. It would be outright ridiculous for me to apply the principals of this community onto the ones you mentioned - specifically the Irish and early Italians. We've moved on quite a bit since then, and I believe this particular community has carved out its own unique tradition of doing things. Granted, it may have borrowed some of the early traditions in terms of promotion struture, Omerta, and so on - but when it specifically comes to recruiting, this practice, until recently, had been frowned on since nearly the beginning of organized crime in this community. We've carved out our own definition of being "Mafioso", and while it does carry some of the traditions of old, it does not carry all of them.


Second, while I'm quite pleased that someone actually went over my comments with a fine-toothed comb, I did not imply that all members engage in complicit help-letters that have the ulterior motive of recruitment. While most don't share your philanthropic endeavors, I did imply that there were a minute few that did not engage in dishonesty in the form of disguised help. There are indeed people, the very few that there are, who offer simply knowledge, and to those people, such as yourself, I give them a round of applause for actually engaging in simply teaching these new citizens.


Again, my problem isn't so much people being bombarded as it is offering help with the ulterior motive of also ensuring their employment in your organization. That, and only that, is what I find dishonest and repulsive (people who also offer blind contracts to any Tom, Dick and Harry are just as bad, but they weren't the main focus of my rant. However, castration or a similar punishment should be in order for these individuals as well). The bombardment is something else altogether, and as I stated earlier, the chances of it - or anything, for that matter - being changed, are slim.

Gaius listens intently as Solastalgia finished his rebuttle, plucking a cigarette from his front coat pocket he pressed it to his lips and struck a match, moments later a blue haze began to drift from his notrils while Solastalgia finished his points. Shrugging, Gaius looked at the free-wheeling mobster.

Fair enough then.

Gaius went back to leaning on his post.