So here I am my original post had two issues one a quote was not in a quote box. I was not aware of this rule, I am now and will remedy this in the future. Also someone felt that part of my post was out of character. I am not sure which part of it was but I will work to remedy this in future posts in the streets.  

The bystander affect is a two sides coin one side is inactivity the other side is active participation. 

If you are a  bystander who is practicing the negative side of this coin inactivity, you are propagating  even supporting the unacceptable behavior by not acting. The act of not taking action when you should, such as when someone is joking about rape or any abuse for that matter. 

This was side of the coin that we as a community just witnessed. 

I surly hope that is not the side of the coin that you truly support. I want to believe that us as a community will not. 

It was a sad affair that everyone was laughing and supporting the "creativity" of this person, when they all knew hew walking a fine line and you all let it go over board by your inactivity.

When myself as another character brought up the fact rape culture was supported here it was laughed and mocked at as if it is a joke.  My character's character was dirtied and drug through the mud. My reputation was called into question. This is common actually and it is called victim blaming. Another thing this community does, to avoid taking about the real underlying issue. This is actually common practice outside this game.

Lack of human respect for each other. Oh,unless it is your friend , right? Rhetorical question there. 

Just because we are playing a game over the internet does not mean common human decency can be thrown out the window. Especially over some basic human right. 

The other side of the bystander affect is the good side. the side where people say hey wait no matter who you are it is not okay to treat people like such and such. And oh rape yeah that is not a joking matter.

By not saying anything the community is just as guilty as the person who committed the act. 

Your silence was your compliance. 

It is very disheartening to see that no uppers in the game said anything against it until Squishy came out condemning the behavior and even condemning the lack of stance that the current uppers held.

Now why did this happen?

I think it is safe to say that the majority of this community did not approve of this abuse and victim blaming that occurred.  

It is also safe to say nobody said anything because of the bystander affect. not one person said no.

Peer culture is why nobody said anything.

Peer pressure that is . 

“With the traditional message of ‘don’t rape, don’t get raped,’ people tend to be resistant and understandably defensive,” Edwards said. “But when you say, ‘Everyone has a role to play in keeping people safe,’ people tend to be much more receptive to those messages.”

Yet, despite the powerful potential of bystanders, there are complex, multi-faceted reasons why people don’t intervene — deeper, stickier reasons than just not knowing what to say or do in a pressure situation, says Katz.

One of those factors is the pressure of the “peer culture” — the expectations among friends, partygoers, fellow teammates, etc.

When there’s an assault within peer culture situations — where most assaults happen — it’s not just about stopping a violent act, it requires going against stereotypes and social norms and confronting issues of gender and power dynamics, Katz says.

 https://www.jacksonkatz.com/news/the-power-of-bystanders-to-end-rape-culture/

https://www.jacksonkatz.com/publication/pub_pennstate/

Thank you sending this message Duggee.  

To: mahihkan
From: Duggee
Sent: Aug 28, '20 20:18
Subject:

you made a number of assumptions in your post, one of which I'd like to correct. Anton's post was reported by no less than 2 hands and 2 CLs, myself being one of them. He was jailed and the post checked by Helpdesk and then he was released. Helpdesk apparently found nothing wrong with the post. Quite a few people found the post 'unsavoury' personally I don't think it deserved a DD, but it should have been deleted at the least. Everyone was not laughing and supporting the "creativity" of this person, a handful of his friends were. That's it.

There are various reasons I am telling you this directly rather than posting in your thread, most importantly is that the core message you have made is correct, and by pointing out flaws in your post, no matter how trivial, it gives others an opportunity to discredit your post and ignore it, enabling the 'Its not me therefore I don't care' culture to continue.

However, I thought you needed to know that not all CLs were remiss in their moral duty.

Now here is my response .

I made no assumptions. I made observations on what I witnessed. 

There is a difference there.

Let us take a moment to mention  that he was exalted with a memorial and his posts were called entertaining and creative.  No one mentioned that what he did was wrong no one mentioned that it was indeed reported by a some uppers. 

In fact when a few people voiced that his behavior was  unacceptable all be it in an emotional state which is understandable. They were attacked for their behavior taking the light away from the subject. 

Instead people defended his behavior even after his death and punishment.

I have respect for the position he held , but not for the acts, nor the lack of a speech from anyone other than myself or squishy that, that behavior is just wrong and unacceptable regardless of the position you held or hold. 

No one was vocal we all witnessed the same thing him getting DQ'd and then squishy saying it was  wrong and then the uppers changed city rules but no announcement about the behavior being unacceptable. 

The bad side of the  bystander affect. if people in power say nothing , nor will anyone else.

Did either of you read the two pieces of material that I presented. Or just read my observations.

I appreciated that Duggee sent me the information that some uppers did report his post.

That means that some people feel it is wrong, but  why did no one make any mention to the public that this was the case.  They just let a fire develop and emotions take over on many sides. 

Denial does not make it nonexistant.

I am not the only person that feels this way, just the only one as usual that says something. 

I fully expect you to  tear me apart and what I have said apart. I fully expect a bullet. Why? Because I said something yet again that has challenged someone's cognitive dissonance. 

Because silence means compliance and I am not compliant with that sort of behavior. in or out of character. 

Well, I was planning on not speaking on the topic....but your words have definitely made me feel that was not the right choice in its totality mahihkan. While I understand the standpoint of leaving it be and moving on, I also feel that it is similar to saying "let's just brush the situation under the rug and forget it ever happened". Not exactly the way to go about it I think. 

I think most could see from my interactions with Anton, that I was not a fan of his behavior/statements/posts and so on. I had no issue with the person behind the keyboard as I do not know that person. I also had essentially never interacted with his bloodline before as I felt it wasn't worth the headache or my time. On this account I felt a change of heart and felt that I should speak against him. I did this in a way similar to how he behaved, just with a bit more class. While he referred to me as dickhead, son, rocks for brains, and whatever other 'creative' names he could come up with I was just doing my best to attack the facts. In recent days I hadn't had the time to engage with him as often when I disagreed with him.

Then the thread that led to his demise came about and I was able to give it one read through while on mobile. I do not enjoy posting on mobile so I did not comment on it. I wanted to wait to either comment on it or possibly even report it once I had a keyboard in front of me. Clearly others found issue with it and quickly reported it. So, I will say that I do not think attacking everyone for 'not speaking up on the thread' is a valid argument. It was not up long enough for everyone to even read it or know it existed. It doesn't erase what he did just because minimal eyes viewed it, but it also made it hard for many people to react to it. I'm sure many heard about it second hand. 

At the core of your statement though, I can agree that not doing anything is just not the answer. At the end of the day I honestly felt terrible that Squishy felt the need to start off his thread about human decency with the use of the word 'apologizing'. He did nothing wrong. It is his game and I do not blame him for not wanting rape in the forums. I have always enjoyed my time on this game. I really have essentially no relationship with Squishy himself, but I always appreciate what he does for this community and how he always tries to find ways to improve it or protect it. 

Wheeler, we have had many pleasant interactions so I do hope that my following statements do not come across as an attack on you or your opinion on the matter. I just have a differing opinion on the matter at hand.

You said:

"Also probably a whole heck of a lot of virtue signalling going off over here."

I don't know how being against people insinuating rape of another user is 'virtue signalling'. I really don't have much more to say than that when it comes to that part of your statement. 

"What is the difference between Bubba and Anton? Not a massive one." 

I'd like to point out that Bubba is an imaginary character and Anton was a real human who typed up that thread and the insinuation of raping another user. Perhaps you have a point that both the real person and the fake character are similar....but that speaks poorly of Anton more than it does of an imaginary character which most people forget exists when it comes to the games jails. Especially since most people almost never go to jail these past few years with all the CA's available. Maybe it is time to move on from Bubba existing, but that is a discussion for a different forum. 

"And let me tell you now, what Anton posted, in comparison with some of the shit I’ve heard and seen over the years, really wasn’t that bad." 

...What you're putting out here is sort of a false equivalence. Just because you want to point out that other people did something you deem as 'worse' in the past....doesn't mean that what Anton did is less 'bad'. I'm sure there are people who would disagree with how you view those vague actions you are referencing just as you disagree with people on this subject. 

At the end of the day, I understand where you are coming from or trying to come from Wheeler. Anton was a friend and somebody you knew for a long time on this game. So obviously you did not enjoy to see him being DD'd and banned. Most would be unhappy to see that happen to their friends as well. 

My issue is more that you seem to want people to allow you to have your opinion and feelings of Anton....but their opinions and feelings are just so wrong and illogical. I may be somewhat off base, but that is how your statements come off. 

There are people on here who may have been the victims of such an act that Anton described and there are definitely people on here who know people that went through such a traumatic event. I know a couple myself and I will say I was not happy to see Anton using such an act as a joke. It is not a joke. No matter how much you hate the idea of PC culture. Which is something I dislike many aspects about myself. I don't think it was PC culture that made rape a topic that should be left off the joke list. I think it was the fact that rape isn't funny.

Wheeler, I'm not sure what value there is in questioning the motives of users as disingenuous while also insinuating that people who believe Anton did something wrong are brainwashed through the use of the term "right think".  Given that Anton was demoted, admin wacked and banned, this post clearly had issues that went beyond the scope of "questionable" or "worth debating" as it relates to the people who actually apply the rules for this site.   

Just as I wouldn't be inclined to question your motives or objective neutrality for defending him despite your close association with him for 11 years, I would hope that you wouldn't question the motives or neutrality of users by insinuating that they are virtue signaling or bandwagoning simply due to the fact that they spoke up after his very public removal; with obvious exceptions given his prolific nature on the streets, there are some in this community who are not inclined to give what they perceive as pointless musings, ramblings or general antagonism the time of day, and indeed, his long tapestry that was revealed after his removal would suggest that, historically, a bullet seemed to be used quite more often in lieu of engaging with him in a debate.  

His position as a crew leader obviously changes that dynamic.  I would posit that, much to mahihkan's point, the list of people who are willing to potentially throw a character away by dying on the hill of condemning Kuku in a leadership position is quite small - despite it needing to happen.  Bubba isn't a person -  (who, I should mention, does not rape on MR and I believe has no references to it on MR, unlike .org) Anton is.  Bubba isn't antagonizing or harassing users.  But perhaps if we take you at this point and Squishy decides to make Bubba start raping characters in jail or through the forums then perhaps he shouldn't be here either, much like Anton while these behaviors are displayed.

Your past experiences of knowing truly despicable people is all well and good, and Anton is, to the best of my knowledge, nowhere close to being in the category of the group you've described, but that isn't relevant to the actual matter when, again, the situation is that multiple people reported a problematic thread, took objection to it, and as a result this person was removed from the game, with haste.  Words matter.  Saying "I'm going to SWAT you" are just words - but do I really have to follow up on the threat to make it unacceptable and merit removal?  Would we be arguing the same nuances if the user Anton directed his post to was female?  I suspect that the conversation surrounding this incident would be a markedly different one.

I understand why you felt the desire to post a tribute to Anton given your aforementioned history - fair enough. But you surely shouldn't have expected that a polarizing personality like his will be well received, and attacking people's motives for speaking up now, when your core argument itself is sufficient to get your point across, will not lead to a productive dialogue in preventing situations like these in the future, which was the point of this thread.  

I don't really have too much to say on this topic besides to point out the obvious, which is that Anton made a street post which was therefore his fictional character alluding to someone else's fictional character. There was no user rape, just a response to FrankCastle's own insinuations about Anton.

To paint this as some reflection of users attitudes on the whole feels disingenuous to me. My view is and has always been that players should play the game and admins should police the rules. That is exactly what happened here. If people play their character as a paragon or as a shitbag, that is their prerogative provided it is within the rules. If it isn't, the admins step in, which is what happened here.

I don't think any player here is filled with bad intent the way you guys let on. 

'all it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing'