I'm starting to think that it's just a tool to bully people with.

Has it ever served it's purpose? Has anyone ever taken up the offer of $100 Million for their back pocket? That seems to be the chosen sum, but that's because it is the maximum allowed. 

Yet it seems it's not enough, Takkar's life is worth more than that. More than $170 million, at least. And the several times TheTallGuy used to frequent the board was also ignored until one fateful day.

See the same obscenely wealthy people are funding Tyler Durden incursions in the hopes he will get lucky and shoot the listed individuals. Using your wealth in this way is bullying and it's not Mafia. Takkar has already won against these people, regardless of if Tyler kills him. As did TheTallGuy. They have the support of their allies and respect of everyone else who is opting not to claim that 100 million hit.

The same goes for everyone that has suffered the same fate. There are three or four people in this life, if not one, who can leave their kin immeasurable wealth and a fragile ego when they die. Not wealth earned from our economy, or from our members, but won from the infinite bank of House. It is then being used to drain our economy of hard earned wealth as we seek to pay off these hits using OUR earnings from OUR members and contributions from across the country.

As someone who is looking for investment from the community into a boxing League, that's a problem for me. This can't grow while we're collecting resources to pay off printed money hits.

I don't mind bringing this to the streets for discussion. Takkar obviously cannot as it will just appear he is just covering his own back. Me? I'm old, I'm tired, I've met my goals and broken my records. Most importantly, I'm not going to cower from the threat of bullying and insurmountable funding. I fully expect to see my name up there next, which feeds directly into my next questions.

What is the point in our hitlist, if it isn't being used for the intended effect? If Tyler Durden is neutered of his ability to kill this on the hitlist, does it even remain relevant? Have people got to go back to putting in hard work to kill the targets they want dead? How many of your kin will inherit one hundred billion dollars of credit assets on your death and be able to use it in this way? Would it turn them into a bully if they did?

Maybe it's about time we started showing that we're not going to be bullied, that we don't give a shit about these people and their wealth and we pay these hits off ourselves as a community.

Tammy listens to JackMezzo's speech and wholeheartedly agrees. She is nodding from Godfather Jack's first until his last word. After he finishes, she claps. She steps forward and says.

From what I have heard and seen, apart from that one time, when Kirsty was shot as the last victim of a war, this exactly is how the hitlist is abused. It's fine if one person really dislikes another and therefore saves money to hitlist their nemesis, but the way it's currently being used..

Tammy sighs

To me, it's a matter of code. Ethics.

The fact that in the description of the hit on Takkar mention was made of The Tall Guy underlines shows that it's coming from the same family. A very rich person that just can't cope with something that had happened to their parents.

After shaking her head, Tammy adds the question

If you have endless money, sure you can make sure someone else than lowlife TylerDurden takes the shot you want them to take?

She pauses for a second, then answers herself

Otherwise you are doing something wrong in this world of networking. I stand by JackMezzo's opinion, I dare to stick my neck out about this ethical issue, too.

In my opinion, accountability is about rallying the people, giving speeches as to why things must change, and emphasizing why they need to either talk to their leaders or take up arms against them. If the goal of the hitlist is to eliminate the 'big guys' or bullies in our community, shouldn't the onus of killing the hitlisted person lie on the members of the wronged community instead of TylerDurden, whose interests go directly against ours? Echoing Jack's sentiments, I've never actually seen someone take a shot on another just to collect the bounty, at least not in this lifetime. In sum, continuously hitlisting someone until they give in to certain demands feels more like being taken hostage than sought accountability from.

The hitlisting on Takkar is just as unfair as the hitlisting on Papua, TheTallGuy, and the many people who have found themselves on that list for prolonged periods of time. Takkar is not a special or isolated case, so rather than focusing on his life and how valuable it is, perhaps we can discuss a possible recalibration of the hitlist mechanics to ensure it's truly serving its purpose of accountability rather than being used as a tool for oppression. Perhaps we can add more incentive for people to take shots at the hitlisted but remove the possibility of Tyler shooting at them, as it makes little sense to me for him to get involved. Or maybe we can add a price cap to the hitlist, so that it's less about the money and financial inequality but more about the whole community seeking actual accountability from those in power. To make sure it's what's best for everyone or as many people as possible, instead of the best for the select few with an endless supply of funds. After all, the bully in some's eyes may be the hero to the majority's, and vice versa.

Thank you JackMezzo

One thing that sticks out to me is Tyler shoots people on the hitlist because he has nothing to lose, and the person posting the hits also has nothing to lose.

Like you mentioned Takkar life is worth more than 170mill which is why no one decided to take a shot, the hitlister is hoping that Tyler will shoot and get lucky. 

I think that Tyler should no longer be given the opportunity to shoot, if Takkar is on the hitlist and someone who has actually put some kind of effort into building Thier gun thinks he deserves to be shot for the amount on the hitlist then that's is what the purpose of the hitlist is for. 

Let's put this I to perspective this hitlister has access to a wealth of unlimited funds, so with the chance that Tyler will shoot at people on the hitlist this person can get away with doing so no matter their status in this thing of ours, if Tyler shoot and kills the hitlister remains to be wealthy because the amount he has had to list for is alot less then the value of the person's life.

If you was to out a price on Takkar head and the hitlist managed to get to an amount that would entice actual gangsters to take a shot this would touch the hitlisters pockets a bit more, while at the same time line so done else with the balls big enough to do something about it 

Thanks Borat, you're saying that if there was no cap to the amount which could be placed on the hitlist then the wealthy would be able to truly entice someone to make a kill. However the fair balance is that Tyler should be removed from the equation?

I understand the purpose of the hitlist is accountability, I would ask if Takkar, Papau, TallGuy, had something to answer for then it would have been delivered by the community. All the guns on these streets and not one of them agrees it is necessary to remove these people through force? Or maybe they pre-empted that attack and that's why we're in this position? Who knows.

Perhaps more should be done to push ourselves for the right leadership figures to be in power, but I need to know where to start. What is a problem, who is the issue. The hitlist could serve that purpose but instead reasons given are taunts or absent altogether. It's as helpful as shooting a member and giving no reason to the kin, or a takedown without attempting to explain why. How do you expect lessons to be learnt.

Thanks Borat, you're saying that if there was no cap to the amount which could be placed on the hitlist then the wealthy would be able to truly entice someone to make a kill. However the fair balance is that Tyler should be removed from the equation?

Hi Jack that is exactly what I mean to say, I could have made it a whole lot shorter had I just said that in the first place.

I think the hitlist does serve a purpose and shouldn't be removed but  it should have equal value to entice someone to take that shot rather than waiting for this Man name Tyler durden who returns from the grave on a regular occasion

I really don’t see the complaint. As scores of people have been told over the past 2 or 3 months ”it’s just business”. Someone clearly doesn’t want the targets to be in power. They have the money and the means to do it, surely that’s business 101?

The why of it is as inconsequential as the why of the last 3 city removals. Someone wanted it to happen, it happened.

Certainly an interesting discussion though JackMezzo. It is telling, however, that it’s just CLs replying so far, and all lobbying for Tyler’s ability to be neutered. Sadly this makes the discussion seem slightly self-serving to me (in spite of the fact I know that was genuinely not your intent).

My opinion is simply this - and this is a general musing, aimed at nobody - don’t be a dick and you won’t make an appearance on the hitlist. Everyone who’s anyone has been on the list at some point - hell, even I’ve been hit listed in the past (and I’m a treasure; universally loved). When your name drops, you know why... whether you’re willing to admit it or not.

Seymour I don't disagree with you at all. The hitlist should be used as a way of making it clear you've upset someone, I just don't feel we're in that intended area of use. I understand the role it should play however accountability doesn't seem like the motivator for what is being posted, either. When a handful of people exclusively control between themselves who should or should not be on the hitlist, depending on their own personal views and experiences, it becomes a monopoly. 

The level of wealth we are talking about means that nobody, ever, will be able to surmount it. The options to gamble that amount of credit assets has been revoked. And they're aware of that, as stated by previous 'reasons' given for their hitlists entries. As a population, we are held hostage to staying on the right side of the same collective of individuals, no matter what position of power we hold, no matter what manner of tyrannical regime is in place. 

As far as accountability is concerned, we're all aware of what the streets were like before the current leadership banded together. Frequent young blood killed and cities relentless dismantled from the inside. The current leadership decided it was wrong and so worked day and night on their skills and executed a well coordinated takedown. They then gave reasons why and how things should be changed. That is what I think of when I'm told leaders need to be held accountable. So it isn't impossible to achieve, without the wealth and without the hitlist. 

And if we're asking for the hitlist to be used in the right way, then we need to hold each other accountable. Anonymous forums of discussion where views on what is or is not being done right shouldn't be difficult. What the community wants to see vs what it is getting. And when that doesn't work, actual reasons for hitlisting's so lessons can be learned. 

The kin of the fallen are always going to be disgruntled. And it's likely they'll feel their end was unjustified. And there will always be those who legitimately just want to make a grab for power. The wider community should control that though, through either their satisfaction with what is currently being done or the possibility of what change might look like.

I can't give an exact solution. I would expect a scenario matching my perfect world hitlist to be something along the lines of:

Hitlisting is placed for obscene figure of money, with a reason of "27 people pulled this together to send X a message to change your ways"

Or maybe it comes down to a simple poll, where each mobster is able to anonymously vote on a posted hit as to whether or not it is justified. If it's there to allow the little guys a chance to show their feelings with backing from the wealthy, let them have that. Otherwise it's just the big wealthy guys stepping on everyone until they get their way.

I’m sorry but this just seems like a sad desperate cry for help, the rules about the hit list have been in place for forever. If players have amassed a lot of wealth and they choose to hit list somebody who killed them for any reason, then that’s perfectly acceptable and always has been.

No one needs to vote on hits, the fact that you’re even suggesting that is benign. A Godfather doesn’t have to vote whether or not they’re gonna kill someone, a rogue doesn’t have to vote with another kill someone, why should we put more stipulations on people who have spent time and lots of time acquiring wealth in this game.

if someone’s gone through the trouble of earning all those credits, then when someone screws them over they should be able to use them.

Takkar decided to kill two districts full of people, this is retaliation for that. Every godfather who has ever played this game has had to weigh the pros and the cons of each take down and each move they have ever made, that’s what makes this game so interesting. You fucked with the wrong group this time, make better decisions in the future.

Hey Sovngarde. I'm going to try and keep this response shorter as I tend to go on, so please don't think I'm being blunt.

- I expect it wasn't just Takkar that made the call on what happens, however he is the one being listed

- I strongly suspect that the hitlist is being used for the same purpose, 99% of the time, by the same group of people over and over again. That doesn't feel like a realistic use of a hitlist to me. We expect each other to be held to a higher standard, why not use the hitlist to a better standard.

- In fact, Godfathers do get a vote on if someone dies, the whole purpose of an inner circle and decisions made "among the Italians, real greaseball shit" is that there is approval on a hit

- I can't comment on the efforts made to accumulate the wealth, other than I know a vast majority was made in another time, through bets made with City Hall. Not by working the streets. No common gangster in this life will ever get a chance to earn that kind of credit assets, and so will never get the chance to challenge a hit placed on them.

Ultimately, I don't see what there is to lose if we try. You claim to be acting on behalf of the majority? Fine, put up a hit, give a good reason, let's see if it has support.

Either that or control the amount of credit assets that can be converted into cash at a rate which is realistic to the cash generated by the general population.

I'll do the same and let's leave our feelings to the side sir:

-No sir I never claimed to be acting on behalf of the majority. I don't truthfully care about the opinions of the majority, the mafia isn't a democracy. 

- No but Takkar is listed for reasons he knows, and other's aren't it's very simple.

- I mean if a single Godfather chooses to act they do so, same if a simple person chooses to place a hit. They do so.

- If other people chooses to not use the hitlist and instead invest their money into BG's and Guns to make a difference that way then how should those that use the list be at fault.

-You do not know the nature of the funds for these hits nor does it truly matter where the money has come from. The hit was posted, either Buy it off or cash it out. Those are your opinion, those were the only opinions our ancestors got.

-I think us voting on each hit is by far one of the worst suggestions I've seen, it turns this into a popularity contest and not the ruthless mafia.

-Again controlling the amount of money someone can exchange from the market, what business is that of yours? Many people here dice throughout the day, and playing the credit marketplace throughout the day. To limit that would be to limit their earning compacity, thus messing with their money. 

All in all Mr. Mezzo I think you've gone at this the right way, but I cannot and will not support what has been suggested here today.

Tammy sticks up her finger and says

Instead of doing any voting.. What you could also opt for is a more realistic attitude..

And what's more natural to begin with, is that a hitlisting falls through if the hitlister is killed.

After all, who would pay the killer if the only one knowing about it is dead?
We have no mechanism of identifying the hitlister; there never are any witnesses of a hit being listed, there is no-one existing between the killer and hitlister.. No messenger, no barber that hears something, no secret lover that says too much...

@Sovngarde you make the point:

the rules about the hit list have been in place for forever.

This is true, but the hitlist hasn't 'forever' enabled the mysterious Tyler Durden to take 'pot shots' at those listed.

Here in lies the issue as far as I can see.  My kin have used the hit list themselves for nefarious means historically, enjoyably so in some cases, well in most cases to be honest. However at that time they always understood if a shot was to be taken it would be taken by a living breathing active member of our community.  Kudos to them for shooting, even more if they catch the witness statement and take home some lubrication.

My suggestion would be for city hall not to publicly display the hit list as we know it to those originating from Delaware city.

If a person wishes Mr Durden to have involvement in the dance then that person should pay.  Its all about balance after all.

To the mayor (if he is listening) I propose a small tweak to the way the hit list is advertised.

Normal hits for all the community to take part in, admire and discuss at the normal rates of issue and buy out, Mr Durden cannot see these advertised.

However, if a person wishes Tyler to be involved then a placing $100M on the table equates to a $75M hit and a specific option to advertise this hit to the residents of Delaware.  Same rules for buy out, the person on the list understands this and the hit lister has paid a little fee for the trouble of advertising in places where Mr Durden lurks.

I believe this to be an elegant solution.  I would be interested in any commentary.

Runa had been listening, and she spoke up with her own thoughts during a break in the discussion.

"Obviously an interesting discussion to break to the streets, Jack, based on the number of responses you're receiving here."

She glanced around at the crowd that had formed.

"To your original questions...

Has the histlist ever served it's purpose? You seem to have settled on the belief that the only purpose would be to get someone killed. I've never used the hitlist myself, though I do have an ancestor or two who made an appearance as a target, but it seems to me that there's more than one purpose here.

First, there's a motive to publicly try to shame someone or call their reputation into question. Regardless of the veracity of the claims, I do think this is a factor for some.

Second, you're right that the purpose might be to motivate the removal of the target, but the larger purpose seems to be to hurt the target, either through death or by forcing them to spend extensive financial resources. How many people accomplish an actual shooting on the hitlist? Probably not many. How many people force their target to gather a large amount of funds that could go elsewhere? This seems to be much more common, although I'm not as aware of the recent past as much as many others are. In that sense, the hitlist seems to be effective at fulfilling its purpose. You're right that it's a form of bullying and intimidating, but I'd argue that that's part of the purpose. As to whether this is working as intended? Only the gods could say.

I think Harison made a fantastic point in saying:

While I personally don’t think personal wealth of the hitlister should matter, it definitely can exasperate the issue given the current state of affairs with the hitlist. When money/repercussions don’t matter to both the hitister and the robot-like gangster taking the shot known as Tyler, it is not a hitlist anymore. It’s a one sided game of Russian Roulette where only the person who has been hitlisted is at risk.

Seymour makes an excellent point, I think, by highlighting the potential self-interest of such a move. Any discussion of the hitlist like this may earn these claims of self-interest, whether by an individual or group of individuals currently in power. Would it be possible for city hall to grandfather in any changes, so that only people born after a certain date would fall under the new rules? That the future generations could benefit, while the current one would have to live under the existing rules. 

JackMezzo, while it's worthwhile to ask the question about voting/community involvement, I think any effort there would be doomed to misuse. 

Most of the defense of the current status of the hitlist seems to be based around the idea about individual players in our world choosing to act. This argument makes a lot of sense to me, but it also leads to the question of how Tyler even got involved in our business to take these shots? If this is about a man or woman taking action, then why does Tyler even factor in?

I'd support the removal of Tyler's influence on the hitlist, whether it's immediate or grandfathered in, as I believe this is the best solution.

But if this is not feasible, then I do like the idea of EvilClown to put a financial modifier on any hit where Durden becomes a factor. Realistically, this may not have as much of an impact, since there are some out there with more money than is present in our entire world. However, with no real way to regulate the source of wealth, a financial modifier might prove to be, as EvilClown said, an elegant solution to at least somewhat address this issue.

As someone who has suffered the wrath of the hitlist for questionable reasons a couple of times in the past, and had the same thing happened to my currently inactive Russian friend Alexei, I can categorically state that I am NOT a fan of the hit list. To be honest, it's a rich mans game that benefits the wealthy elite.

We can go under the guise that the money raised for it is through the extreme luck of gambling for cold hard cash and things called "credits", controlling the market from insourcing produce and wealth. However, on the flip side to that we can just as easily state that it's equally money from our Motherland counterparts to purchase these so called "credits".

Sure, on the outside looking in that is equally just as fine, but when we look closer and find that certain people cannot garner as much wealth from their very own Motherland counterparts because of no fault of their own, then is it really the same? When do the lines start to blur between these two?

I feel with my previous point(s) that it may seem like I am playing Devils Advocate, playing both sides of the coin, being safe with what I say, but that is not the case. The hitlist is there for people to use, it has been put there by the Gods to take out the pesky human looking NPCs and lately the super duper thugs, and it is indeed there to deal with us. However, it has also been home to people who repeatedly put the same hits on the same people over and over again. Repeat hitlisters in my eyes are pretty low down on the totem pole. People that clearly lack either the skill, tact or common sense to raise a gun capable of killing their targets, so they have to outsource it to more capable people like Mr Durden himself.

I guess we can say that these "mystery hitlisters" lack the mental fortitude or IQ points to use their own gun?

"As others have said, much better than I, its a game for the wealthy and a one-sided one at that." Frankie tucked her hands in her pockets, the March air colder than she was used to. "At the moment there is no balance to it, someone can run to daddy or mommy and get magic rocks to turn into money, and then put anyone they desire on the list for whatever reason pops into their head, no repercussions. Hell, if I could win at dice more than I lose, I could put Frank on the hit list so I finally was the only one... Who would know unless I said something?" she shook her head, "So you either sacrifice your life, or your family's safety by paying it off, or you ignore it and hope your luck keeps up." 

"I get why it exists, and it serves a purpose to an extent to call out without having to put your name to it. But the revenge aspect just because you're bitter daddy took a bullet to the face, really makes it so it can be abused. Not everyone can make the money it takes to have a revenge hit, however, it's made. There is no accountability other than they're out the cash." she shrugged, and then grinned at Jack, hoping he'd be proud of her for not calling anyone a cunt, not even one time. 

In recent history, some of the hit listers where some of this worlds most brilliant minds and successful lineages.

Good job I mentioned repeat hitlisters as the culprits to my input. I agree that somewhat infamous, perhaps overrated (who knows really) people have resorted to, or for better words, gone down the hitlist route. To me that's fair enough, it's there to be used. However, it's the constant hitlisting of the same individual(s) over and over again by the same person or people with literally no blowback on them bar losing some money that they obviously can afford to lose.

You could go about it the old way, just start killing everyone who looks remotely guilty. It would bring much needed excitement to this dull ass world.

I think its the fact that salty people got killed for genuine reasons that started all of this. God knows what would happen if we just resorted to the "old ways", as you put it.