Alexei had just seen his comrades @Tristram and @ThymeBalm take their very own districts in the City of Sin. He was super happy to be working along side both of them as the rebuild process began for the city. While they were attempting to do so, he had heard many upset kin raise the question of removing those lower ranked individuals on the totem pole. This was something that was always mentioned in the past since Alexei's kin has been on these shores. He wanted to open up for discussion as many years have gone by since the last debate on this had been heard.

"Comrades, as this been a debate of the past I think its time to revisit this topic.

I've seen quite a few comrades on the streets mentioning the murdering of younger associates in our criminal organizations during a takedown to be distasteful. I want to address it and perhaps debate on the topic. First, I'll happily admit that my thoughts have changed over time with this. The journals of my forefathers mentioned that some of my latest grandfathers opposed the killing of anyone under the rank of Made Man. Primarily because they didn't take their oath yet. However, my more recent grandfathers have supported the killing of associates because of a few reasons.

As of late, there is a huge amount of Wise Guys. There could be many reasons why. Maybe they aren't quite trusted yet, or maybe they are still attempting to finish personal achievements. Or maybe its because people know that the lower ranked you sit in your organization, the less of a threat you seem to be."

Alexei turns to the older looking Wise Guys in the crowded streets.

"I'm not going to name any but theres a few Wise Guys who I fear could do more damage than say a younger Capo. Thats just fact. How do you differentiate these people though? Along with that, how do you know all the lower ranked associates won't follow around survivors and make it more difficult for you to kill them? I know for a fact that when I plan to remove an organization, I do it to come out alive. I plan my actions so that I know I won't lose a single comrade of mine. I plan to ensure all of my people are safe. And for me to do that, more blood has to be shed to ensure their protection."

He continues to look around the streets at the lower ranked associates.

"Is there some sort of middle ground?

I know my grandfather mentioned someone wanted to enforce a global standard of leaving associates with the rank of Earner and below alone. Everyone else above those ranks, dies. Simple. This would help minimize risk of any last stands amongst the fallen crews and would allow low ranked individuals to keep their life and find homes.

What is your own opinion on this comrade?"

John Stand's in the Crowd Puffing on his Cigar ,Taking a moment Exhaling his Smoke Before Talking "I think it all really come's down to How active a family is What potential a threat they are Do you have to worry about The lower rank's being hitters or will the lower ranks just let their family die with out putting up a fight I can see some case's where you can let lower rank's live if they are not going to Revenge for their family being murdered But It also is up to the people doing the take over because it's 50/50 lower rank's could be Danger leaving them or take everyone out to lower the threat of Losing one of your own to the person you let live it's a hard choice But It's part of this life 

,John bite's down on his cigar as he look's around for other's input 

Shoresy had a moment of clarity when he stopped thinking about Wayne's sister for a sec.  He cleared his throat and horked into his spitter.

"Wise guys are a little different - if they've been alive for awhile and can carry 40 drug units - I wouldn't trust them either.  I don't think people should get the opportunity to hide behind the veil of not being made to survive a war in that situation."

"The gangsters, earners and goombas might be a little different, but I really don't think that the responsibility to keep them alive needs to sit squarely on the shoulders of the attackers.  These associates should maybe consider finding an accepting  family rather quickly or beating it (OOC get offline) to avoid the bullets flying.  An online associate can be the difference between 1 Godfather dying and 2.  It's not an aggressor's job to predict the intent of these associates.  They are doing what they need to do to protect their family - and I don't think that you can begrudge them for that."

"My next point though - is to the angry kin of the recently deceased.  I mean - are you seriously that angry over a couple of dead associates who have not put in a proper amount of work or earned any money/trust for your collapsed criminal enterprise?  Or maybe, just maybe - is this your way of expressing your anger over the death of your deceased mother or father?  A little misplaced, perhaps? Get over yourself.  We're in a life of crime and constant death.  It's absurd to think that things are black and white and someone who isn't made should get a free pass in a war."

Anthony listens to the conversation and nods quite a few times at the points made.

"While I understand the idea for protection orders, they were not always a thing and because of the change in culture becoming that they a expected is something of a generation (New Bloodlines vs Old Bloodlines) issue I feel. The old lines here know when shots fire, you either fire back or you find a new home very quickly and go to bed (get offline) to show you aren't involved." 

" I also think Shoresy makes a great point in the responsibility to keep people outside of your family, city, group, etc.. doesn't lie with the attackers. I think Alexei said it best when he said that he is organizing things in such a way that his own side will not spill any blood. I think to plan any other way would be foolish, this is war we are talking about. If Don Alexei allows a Wise Guy to sit around who can carry just as many drugs as him, and shoot even straighter. Then said Wise Guy takes a shot and kills a close associate of himself, or a business parent of his he would look foolish."

"I think some people may just need to step back and look at the larger picture and understand that while it has become norm to spare the little guy, it's not required and the sole responsibility of the attacking force is to achieve victory."

Anthony nods at the folks gathered around to show he was ready to listen to other opinions given on this topic.

Luigi steps up and takes the word after listening to what others had to say.

Seems only fair i put my two cents in since i represents the wise guys with 40 units that is mentioned by those that talked before me. 

I differentiate between the takedown or war and then the protection order that follows after the dust have settled. As 

consensus seems to be in the words of Alexei and the speakers after him. When war erupts and another crew or city or even several citys are to be taken down, the only thing that matters is getting the job done and and keeping friends and family safe. As pro shots are as important as strong hitters off course everyone should be a target. With special focus on active mobster and mobsters with long lifespan. 

The reason protection orders become something that was made official and upheld quite strigth in the days past, had nothing to do with how wars was fought but about keeping this thing of ours alive and kicking. Many crewleaders and the leading players realised that if new blood on our shores was gunned down in a conflict they in some cases had no idea what was about or had taken place before they woke up to a blank screen. Then there was a risk that the flow of new blood ran dry and that those that made it here didnt get to the point were they learned the real way of life in this thing of ours, what keeps all the old bloodlines coming back generation after generation. 

So i say when the conflict rage, everyone is a target. Especially those that by age or by activity are showing they are someone to be reckoned with.

 But when it is clear that the takedown has succeeded and the war is won then protection orders make a lot of sense to me and will give opportunity for us to make way for new and potentially great bloodlines to have their place in this thing of ours.

Luigi sends a respectful nod to Alexei for giving him the opportunity to speak his mind on the matter and steps back into the crowd.

Carmine listened in on this discussion and took a slight puff from his cigarette.

"So, this is a fascinating thought.  Ironically, I understand where the current structure of these groups allows for a number of people to assume or imagine that these lower level members could be more of a threat than someone else.  But technically, associates are really more independent.  You see, an associate hasn't taken any oath - so should an associate REALLY be told who is the boss, capo, consigliere etc for a crew?  I think this goes back to what hit means to be made discussion - being made should be a form of access control - where you are actually a part of the society and the politics.  When you're an associate you shouldn't really be tied down to a crew.  No one should officially claim you unless you are made - that's the point.   It means something or it doesn't.  That's why the commission rotates names of who they want to induct in their borgatas - now, I understand not everyone agrees with that HERE - but in true cosa nostra the point is to determine if the individually conducts themselves right or could be involved with another family that could possibly claim them."

With that, Carmine walked off.

Since you asked my opinion  and Carmine already made the point of Wise Guys and below not being part of a family here it is ...

If a leader is worried about who might be out to get revenge on them or kill them. She paused a moment to gather her thoughts. Than what is it this leader is doing that makes him feel so paranoid that they feels like a target?

In my opinion that is the only reason anyone does scorched earth policies in war. It is out of  fear because of some perceived notion rooted in paranoia. 

Alexei approached the streets again to follow up with some of the people who stepped forward to debate. It had been a little while since he started the topic. Las Vegas was getting busier and busier by the week...

"John, I can see your point to this. However this thing, whether it's this 'thing of ours' or my Communism organization, we like to have rules. Rules that we go by. Thats primarily the reason why I brought this to the streets. How can we protect ourselves and those close to us, while enforcing rules? Again, this is just up for discussion. I'm not trying to push any new rules or change any from when Godfather Giyu took over."

Alexei listened to Shoresy and agreed completely with their response. 

"Theres not many people that'll agree with your points. However I do. Losing a member of the Soviet State is a big deal to me. I respect everyone who is willing to put in the time, and work their way up in this world. With that being said, I'd do anything to protect them. This goes for all of Las Vegas."

He looks over to Crazy_Carmine to address him.

"The problem with that is currently, as soon as your associate yourself with someone, your name is tied to them. If my Sponsors have sponsored you into my organization, you are going to rep our colors. Not our stripes but colors. While you may not be a fully pledged member to our enterprise, you are still associated with us. The negative effects the God's have placed when anyone shoots at some of these unassociated folk has really been upheld. I mean lately I've some lower ranked people not even sponsored by anyone and allowed to earn their living. And like I said, the only protection they have is the negative affects set by the God's. Some wouldn't even bat an eye if these people were removed. Again, they aren't associated with any organization."

He looks over to Ryant.

"I think anyone who decides to remove another city, district or crew, should be paranoid. You just removed a bunch of folks and you're saying they shouldn't be paranoid about these next of kin potentially coming around to put a bullet in their skull? Come on... be real about this. Retaliation is and always will be something in this life. Any good leader or next of kin has the ability though to sway their own opinions or next steps. Generally speaking when your life is over, your next of kin shouldn't bear any of the bad omens your mother or father had. You're off to a new start."

Don @Alexie Yes, retaliation is a human aspect of life. I find it odd we are the only animal that practices retaliation. Did you know we are the only animal that also kills for sport. 

Anyways, I am saying  they shouldn't be being paranoid of people who are an associate,  who are not part of the family. Scorched earth policy is not good for the moral of the community nor is it good for the economy of the game, and it gives a chance for the gang  that carries the tag NPC, who is everyone's mutual enemy a chance  to move in on turf left opened. 

Why be paranoid of everyone for a single rotten egg or a couple rotten eggs? Why get rid of that potential revenue for the city not to mention the infinite talent pool that you lose when you do a scorched earth policy, because one or two may retaliate? Besides why live in paranoia of everyone just because of one or handful of bad people. Being paranoia like this is actually a mental disorder called paranoid personality disorder.

This is why protection orders are important to protect  the community from our mutual enemy the Gang of NPC ( by having a pool of talented people to  bring under your protection and help create new crews, you need members just like you do leaders) and protect  the moral of the community, also  to tap into the potential  talent and revenue of the  associates left behind. They were never Made they have no obligation to retaliate, only Made family members do.  

"And this is where we'll disagree."

He takes a second to collect all his thoughts.

"To start, you haven't mentioned how do you handle threats out of this 'paranoia' you're referring to. Cause to me you're simple stating if you haven't taken an oath, you should be allowed to do whatever you want and live forever. Jumping ship to ship. Showing loyalty to no one. Thats not how this thing works. And if you're ok with that, that's another discussion. I should not have used the word paranoid in my response to you. I should've stuck with the word fear. Paranoia is a subset of fear and is typically aligned with someone making irrational sense or decisions. I do not see that happening in this day and age. Please let me know how you'd solve this. If you don't think theres a problem with those associates doing that, then theres no real reason to continue this discussion."

In regards to scorched earth as a policy for war, I don't think it is often needed.   I think if you can take out the Made's and above and possibly any wise guys that you know have been in consideration for meeting the standards of rising to made that is enough generally.   You have crippled a family.   Will it make enemies and piss some people off by their aunt, uncle, dad, or mom dead, of course, but that's the way our business works sometimes.   The big problem for me comes when gun malfunctions, misses, etc happen, and suddenly every member is potentially someone who gathers behind the surviving made#s and above, especially if a crew leader survives.

As much as we can take their guns, recruit them to different families we have seen in the past as people are happy to raid armouries for a new weapon, and then go and rejoin the enemy anyway.   As LA/LV and South Side were ripped apart even a made asked to join me, so much for blood in, blood out.

After the dust settles, should people still be hunted who had no part in the action, of course not, but often we have seen those associates who often wear no markings of who they were associated with or have not worked for a family so long, and are inactive as family members we know where they will end is the reality of this thing?

Over the last few years pretty much a third of the population of potential recruits have disappeared, when my grandfather held Chicago we floated over 700 potential recruits, we lag around 500 now, how long till our business shrinks into oblivion?

He took one last drag on his cigarette before flicking it down into the small puddle of water, enjoying the sound of the interaction between the heat and the soothing liquid around it.

I feel like this scorched earth term got picked up once and has somehow tried to be used in various different scenarios where it just isn't applicable. When Cities have been removed in the past, you can bet your ass that its always gonna be the Uppers first since they run the ship. Granted, there may be some other key targets included but that is just how this life goes.

Sometimes, things aren't always as tidy as people would like, that's only natural. In those instances, they may have to expand out and try to handle the situation as best as possible. Some of these so called 'Wise Guys', can often be older than the Leader themselves. As stated above, these can often be a bigger threat than Capos, Bosses, etc. If they are perceived as an immediate threat, their removal doesn't automatically mean, "oh my god it's a scorched earth!", it's simply 'good business'.

On the flipside of that, if they are all being left and you find that the lone Leader who managed to dodge that first bullet is receiving protection from members within that burning City whilst he goes around and guns down members of the attacking family (perhaps not alone), then who is at fault for those deaths? Leaders should always try to protect their own and if this means a few extra casulties are needed to close out the war, so be it.

Whilst Earners and below can still serve a purpose, this can at least be measured. Wise Guys however, often have too many variables.