I happen to agree with Mr. @Sam_Wheat's opinion  on the low ranking hands, that he stated in another street discussion just a couple blocks down from here.

So here we are on another street corner me talking and you listening. We just all seem to be going round and round these days. It is good to see productive discussions happening on these street corners. 

That said lets get to my point of being here on this street corner. 

As I stated before I agree with Sam_Wheat on the point he made about hands being before they are even Made. 
I so understand these people gain the position due to respect the Crew leader has with them and the trust they have . Which both of these are of utmost importance.

But so is  the rank and position in this thing of ours and these must be respected.

Or they will  mean nothing, and only represent a position of power. 

In my opinion when a person takes one of these positions and they are not Made they are being disrespectful to the position. It also makes them look like they are power hunger, because they appear to not be able to wait until they are more mature. 

The general consensus is that Made doesn't mean anything more.
This is one example  to look at when they say this.
So it is us that have to make it mean something and put some respect back into the position and the rank of Made. 

How would we do this well with the position of being a hand it is simple, wait till you are of maturity to be Made then take the position.

I have done it myself on several occasions. Every time I asked the Crew leader if they would wait till I was mature enough to be Made the happily accommodated me.  This small act shows you have respect for being Made, gives being Made some meaning back and it shows you have respect for the position of being a hand.  This is not something that is hard to do, if you are not power hungry.

So, what do you think about people taking hand positions before they are mature and able to be Made?

Its just nepotism at work, while my family has been on both ends of it, we will continue to see it happen while we have extremely stiff penalties for CL's who hire the wrong hand. 

 I totally agree with you Ryant!! Skipping ranks is disrespectful, I don't care who you are! When you come back to the Life of Crime, you should have to do all Ranks simple as that! Show your worth and pay the price! It's all about respect! Skipping ranks makes those who work hard lose a bit moral and think Bahhh whats the point in trying never gonna make it to the Top anyways. But hey I guess it's who you blow and not what you know to get to the Top which shows disrespect! You Want to get to the Top go back to the Trenches work at it with the sweat off your Brow!! Other wise your just a Power hungry lazy fuck with a big Ego who doesnt care about the rest!

 Simple!, my words and my opinion thnx Ryant for the Post!

Ricky_Bobby it is nepotism, people want others in that position that they know and feel they can trust.  Don't read into this that people can not make it unless they are in the nepotism pool, I am not in the nepotism pool. And while my bloodline has not made it a position on every account my bloodline has held hand positions on many occasions and I was a Crew leader.  Through the work I put into it, so I am not saying anyone should do anything I am not willing to do or have not already done. Point is the nepotism can be worked past.

Like I said this  is understandable. So let's get back on topic which is ...

The matter of not taking a position until you have matured and become Made.

But this is what you would call a multi pronged issue. That breeds the lose of community moral and  people give up even trying because they are given the impression it pointless. 

Like JimmyJr. pointed out :

 Skipping ranks makes those who work hard lose a bit moral and think Bahhh whats the point in trying never gonna make it to the Top anyways.

The part that is not nepotism and shows  disrespect  to the position by the hand  is not being willing to wait till they are Mature to take the rank of Made. Like I said a simple act that shows some respect for the position and Made in this thing of ours. 

Misty listens politely as the discussion ranges, slowly eating a hand pie she'd bought in the local market. As she finishes, she wipes her hands off and steps forward and nods politely to Ryant.

"In this thing of ours, If I asked what rules this world, I'd hear "Money and power" from most...

But the fact is that power and money are both easy to come by...

The most valuable assets...

The only things you can't buy, trade, force or steal...

Are loyalty and trust."

Misty pulls a drink from a flask she'd had tucked into a pocket before continuing,

"For a crew leader, selecting hands relies Heavily on those two factors. "Who can I trust to protect my most valuable assets?" and "Who will be loyal to me and my family?" These are tricky questions, as many, if not all of us, Are bootleggers, thieves and confidence artists."

Misty produces a coin and makes it vanish as she talks, letting it dance cross her fingers as if to illustrate her point. 

"Our Family lines are often famous for their loyalty and honor. Going back several generations, I myself have several family lines I've been close with for generations, friends from the crib to the grave, raised at my side. Some who have, til recently, remained in the shadows, and others who walk these streets already.

"Rank doesn't buy trust. Age doesn't determine loyalty. A hand is in their bosses pockets, reading mail and playing with purse strings. A hand is someone a CL trusts to speak for them and take charge in a crisis."

Making the coin vanish one last time, Misty reaches over to a young lass and pulls it from her ear, before handing it to her and turning back to the crowd.

"Frankly, I know my daughter is helping with crew matters as we speak, Running messages and watching marks, Cleaning, mending and learning the trade at my side. She's not yet ready to walk on her own in this world, but she would step up and help my CL as I do if I were to pass. This is the way of things. It is important to remember that family ties run through generations, Most CL's certainly do."

I appreciate you coming and sharing your opinion Misty. 

With all due respect I did not start this conversation about the trust and loyalty of the hands that the Crew leader has for them.  As a matter of fact I already acknowledge  those are key twice. 

So I will redirect this back to the topic at hand ...

This is about showing respect for the position and the rank of Made man at the same time.  A large number of the citizens in this community feel these do not mean anything anymore. Why resist this one small act of waiting till maturity if it will fix the issue of people feeling like Made and these positions don't mean anything. 

The matter of not taking a position until you have matured and become Made.

Why is  it so hard  for many to wait for the age of maturity to take this position ?  Which is not very long in the grand scheme of things, and will go far in showing respect for the position and the rank. 

 Especially of the general consensus is that this is disrespectful. Resect goes just as far as loyalty and trust in this thing of ours and sometimes even farther depending on the situation. A large number of the citizens in this community feel Made man and the positions of Upper Structure do not mean anything anymore. 

Why resist this one small act of waiting till maturity if  it has potential to  fix the issue of people feeling like Made and these positions don't mean anything? Is our world run by dictators or leaders of the people? 

This conversation will just go round about and not  be productive  if people keep trying to make this about how the Crew leader feels about the hands personally, we all know why they are there.

It is not about why they are there it is about ...

Not taking a position until you have matured and become Made.

While I recognize the loss of respect for the made mans badge, I don't think the Hand's ranks play into it.

At the end of the day, we've started to demand a promotion without proving or honoring what it once stood for and we cheapen the badge without realizing that we've cut the silver thin. Only by reforging the badges value both as a community and individually, will it ever be what it was.

Yes, a hand position is one of power, but the real power isn't in the job. A hand is a mask... a Face of the Crew leader... in a sense, the eyes on the back of his head.. While they have the ability to think and make choices on their own, their orders are respected because the CL has named them their mouth piece... not because of the button on their chest... Which is why the CL Must be Made, but not their hands.

I'd think that if someone were to have strong feelings on the matter they wouldn't join a family or city rather where this is so prevalent. What does it say about ones self that they so easily disregard their values to join a group of people who do not hold the same values as they? A self respecting person would join a family and city that holds similar values to them. With your situation, this seems more like you publicly outing the city that is giving you a roof and safety. I suggest when looking for a home, you discuss with your potential leaders what is important to you to ensure you are not joining a group of individuals that do not hold the same beliefs as you. If these families that decide to do this sit empty, they will learn that the community is not interested in their way of running things. 

Bernie waltzes over to the street corner, a tune of "That same ole song" going through his mind. He stops as he approaches the soapbox, and tips his hat, that he had forgotten he was even wearing. He had been listening intently, as he often did when this same old refrain was shouted about for the hundredth time, and he shuffled around in his pockets for some notes on the subject before deciding fuck it, and beginning to speak anyway.

But so is  the rank and position in this thing of ours and these must be respected.

Or they will  mean nothing, and only represent a position of power. 

My sincere apologies, but how precisely is the position of Right or Left Hand Man disrespecting the rank of Made Man? These things do not need to be one and the same. Myself, and my lineage have a long history of not holding rank against someone for a hand position. If I trust you, and I trust you to make decisions for me, then I don't give two shits what your rank is. In addition, for my families at least, if a Position such as Right or Left hand is granted to someone under Made, they still have to earn that rank, the same as anyone else.

Bernie takes a deep breath, followed by a drink of bourbon from his trusty flask.

The general consensus is that Made doesn't mean anything more.
This is one example  to look at when they say this.
So it is us that have to make it mean something and put some respect back into the position and the rank of Made. 

You are correct here, though misguided. Hand positions are entirely irrelevant in the Made Man discussion, and the meaning/respect of the rank. It is up to us, each individual family, to put our own weight on the rank of Made Man. In my opinion, this should be weighed when you are deciding what family to join, ask them what value they place on Made Man, and if they have a criteria that they go after before the position is granted. If they do not, then you decide if that family respects the position enough for you or not. It's simple really.

If more people sought out the rank with meaning, then those leaders that do not put any weight behind it would be left behind with empty halls and a path forward to better it, that path being to put weight behind the rank of Made Man.

Bernie shakes his head a little and lets out a cough.

Now I could be mistaken, I am old after all, and Right Hand Man could be a rank, but I don't think I'm mistaken in this. In summation, if you are so disrespected by an under Made being a Hand, then don't accept an invite from a family that practices this. If you want more weight on Made Man, do your homework and don't accept a family that doesn't place value in it. End result, the decisions are yours to make, don't take them too lightly.

While I recognize the loss of respect for the made mans badge, I don't think the Hand's ranks play into it.

 Misty, I respectfully disagree on this. The hands ranks plays a role in it when they take the position. If the  hand when they are not Made  tales the position and therefor not a legitimate part of the family.   But still a hand?  

The general consensus is that under Made are not part of the family, under their protection , but not  a member of the family . On this ground this means anyone who is not Made in Hand position is disrespecting the rank of Made.  And undermining the very respect that, that rank should deserve. 

What does it say about ones self that they so easily disregard their values to join a group of people who do not hold the same values as they? 

 DemTitties thank you for you opinion on what a self respecting person is. As for your indirect  stab at me and whether I am disregarding my values. You must have missed that I have asked  my Crew leaders wait on several occasion for me to Made before I could take the position. Oh and they waited for me become mature.  So how am I disregarding my values when I practice what I am preaching? Since practicing what you preach is the way you give regard to your values, Your indirect attack on my values has failed. 

You are correct here, though misguided. Hand positions are entirely irrelevant in the Made Man discussion, and the meaning/respect of the rank.

You can not tell someone that their opinion is misguided or wrong. You can present your evidence of your opinion and maybe they will see your point of view or maybe they will agree with you. But you can not disregard their opinion by saying it is misguided.  And no the Hands are not entirely irrelevant in my opinion to the rank of Made man and the position  of being a hand. 

For one simple fact:  You can not take a position within a crew unless you are Made, because positions are reserved for members of the family not associates who are under protection of the crew and not a part of the family.  So  making people Hands before  they are Made not only is disrespectful to the Rank of Made and the Position of Hand, it undermines the very respect and meaning  for Made and above the general population says is missing.  

Ryant, I think it’s quite obvious what DemTitties is referring to. You bring this topic to the streets, but in the case of your own crew it has a hand under the rank of Made Man. Your sponsor, so is the matter of hands under the rank of Made only an issue when your friends are not involved? Because to bring this topic to the streets, as a consensus issue while joining a crew doing the same thing you are preaching against. It invalidates your argument and makes you seem like a hypocrite.

In this thing of ours we must be very very careful when selecting our hands all too often have we seen crew leaders and godfathers killed for the actions of people they put in high positions. I think that when appointing hands the thing that matters most, is who can you trust. The rank of Made Man should have nothing to do with it. 

To be fair, the only rank that actually means anything anymore is Godfather. Don's are a dime a dozen too

Anthony-Casso thank you for opinion more about me and my integrity than the topic.

First off it is not my crew I am not the leader of the crew. While one of my ancestors was a Crew leader I am not, therefore, I don't have a crew.  

Had I been the leader he would have waited till he matured. My sponsor knows full well my opinion on this matter. So does my Crew leader.   Isn't it wonderful I live in a city where I am allowed to develop and have my own opinion.  Quite refreshing that my Sponsor and my Crew leader do not censor me.  

This has nothing to do with selection I am not saying these people can not be Hands.
By no means The Crew Leader has the right to have who they want as a Hand I am saying that they should simply wait to age to become a Made member  first before taking the position .

This simple act of waiting would go in the right direction to help the community as a whole  feel like The Uppers are doing something to fix the issue of  Made and above not meaning anything. 
It was leaders who made this mistake and it has to be leaders who fix it.
 

When my ancestor  was crew leader she interviewed for her hands and if they were not mature enough she  asked them if they were willing to wait till they aged. And they were all willing. Again  as you can see I practice what I preach. That is how I uphold my values and my integrity.  While you can persuade people to have the same values as you, you can not force them to have the same values.  

Strange thank you for your thoughts.  This is why I started this discussion. This is one of the factors that makes people feel like the ranks don't mean anything except Godfather. 

So back on to the topic at hand: 

The matter of not taking a position until you have matured and become Made.

I can see both sides.

I personally believe in waiting until someone is made, and I believe made people should be only those who you trust, as they represent your crew in its entirety to the outside world, however this is often no longer the case many simply becoming made as soon as they are of age, this being said you cannot always trust just any made guy to become a hand. Sometimes you have guys below that who you know are the most qualified candidate in your respective opinion who are under made. Being a made man isn't as big of a move as it used to be. However I feel like a lot of crews were more tight knit, and there was also a lot more to do within said crews at one time. I am doing my part to bring some of that back, and I was made before I was a hand. In my opinion a guy shouldn't just get made simply because he has the time to be able too. In the current state of the world I see why you have so many people simply choosing to have hands who are not yet made. Trust plays a MAJOR factor into this, and honestly I don't believe it takes too much away from a guy who wants to be a hand but was passed over, theres always ways to prove with your performance that you are that guy who can be trusted, you just might have to work at it a little harder. Like I said I see both view points, and in my opinion it should require a little more to be made then simply time in grade to become made.

Thank you DemonHermano for you two cents.

I enjoy constructive responses.  I will reiterate I understand that the Hand positions require trust. I have acknowledged this social fact several times in this discussion. 

It is also a fact that trust is not belittled nor is it compromised if the person taking a Hand position waits or the Crew leader asks them to wait  till they are mature enough before they take that position.  I do see the trust view but that view has no bearing on waiting till the desired Hand is mature enough to become part of the family. 

I am going to take my leave of this discussion I started. I have some very important business to attend to over seas. 

I do hope people continue to have open,  and respectful discussion on this matter until a common consensus can be developed. 

The manager accepts the status quo; the leader challenges it.
Warren G. Bennis