Your membership in a family and your loyalty to that family. Where did this topic come from you maybe wonder or not wondering. Either way just like every other topic I have brought to the streets for discussion this come from my own observation, experience and talking with other citizens of this thing of ours. 

Some sponsors are using cash incentives to bribe citizens to become  members of their families. Let me be clear this is not cash for start up funds which is a standard practice. This is paying people to become members of the family.

Bribing loyalty.  

Now buying someone's loyalty is a despicable thing in my humble opinion anyways, both on the person buying the loyalty and the person allowing their loyalty to  be bought. 

In my opinion this diminishes  and taints the loyalty given to nothing more than the attention of a 2 dollar whore. In essence it is whoring members and members whoring themselves out. 

So please step up here and tell us what you think about this. 

Petra walked up to the growing gathering of spectators around Joald, listening intently. It was a topic she was interested in as she herself was currently a sponsor to five great recruits. Some of the recruits she knew personally from the civilian world, others were new to the world of ours. She herself was just a Wiseguy, but she remembered her grandmother's stories of recruitment. 

I personally have never been bribed or have bribed recruits with cash incentives for joining a crew or be my associate. I do remember my great great great grandmother in her journal saying how cash for start-up funds was incredibly helpful, especially for her being new, as you stated that's not what you're discussing.

My mother would tell me how she knew how hard and dangerous this world of ours would be. I mean, after all her life is on the line and she could get killed at any given moment.  So what is the monetary value of a person who has to give their life on the line and the risk of being killed? This is no ordinary cash-bonus civilian job, yet even their world has cash incentives.

So anyways, she would bargain with the crewleader for start-up cash as she knew what a significant time investment it would be to work for him. So in a sense it's not considered bribery as she asserted her own value as more than just a petty thug. She had goals and ambitions, so for her potential boss to see that value and offer her monetary incentive I wouldn't consider bribing as much as, let's say a crewleader who doesn't take the effort or time to get to know a recruit and simply just transfers them money with no idea on how their performance would be as a productive member of the crew.

There is a significant risk of reputation and stress on the crew leader , who might have invested into their packaged times, money, credit, only for the thug to retire or buy out of the family without notice. Which actually was a topic that was brought up personally within my family,

Let's say a crewleader gives gifts or money to a new recruit where their intentions would be out of helpfulness or bribery. The thug buy out of the crew leaves without notice. Does the crewleader have the right to shoot them being so new? On one hand, they already  signed the rules stating they are loyal to the family, and have received the benefits and protection that the crew gives, yet on the other hand, they are so new did they really know what they got themselves into to deserve death? 

I am responsible for five of my associates currently. My intentions for them is to be successful in this world of ours, for me, for them, and for our crewleader and upper structures. I think it really depends on the individual, their intentions, goals and ambitions as well in this world. If you can't communicate with someone to the point where you'd have to buy their loyalty, I'd say that's more of a reflection of them as a crewleader, but who am I to judge? I may or may not bribe FBN agents all the time. None of my business. 

Petra took a drag from her joint and was eager to hear the opinions of others amongst the crowd. 

 

So anyways, she would bargain with the crewleader for start-up cash as she knew what a significant time investment it would be to work for him. So in a sense it's not considered bribery as she asserted her own value as more than just a petty thug

I mean no disrespect Petra. But not every criminal here can sell themselves like that. And no matter the word use to to puta nice spin on it is it is still selling your loyalty.   One of my own grandmothers was shot simply for asking the Crew leaders  at that time to prove to her they deserved her loyalty.   It was made quite clear to her in the discussion and rudely at her funeral that she was not allowed to ask this. I guess the loyalty goes one way  around here or at least that was what her daughter took from the experience. 

I am pretty sure if my bloodline tried to do as you said "negotiate your value" before becoming a member  I would be scoffed, ridiculed, and laughed at , possibly even shot.  Let's be clear I would never sell or bargain the value of my loyalty. For one like I said it diminishes the loyalty, and it also means you think your loyalty has some monetary value.  And if loyalty does have some monetary value  then mine is priceless. That is valuing yourself instead of the  few dollars in your pocket.  

RIP to your grandmother, sometimes loyality lessons can be learnt from journals...

If doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is a definition of insanity, expecting people whom we overwhelmingly rewarded for acting in one manner to change that behavior is more than a bit naïve, as any parent knows or finds out quickly.......

Just saying....

Excuse me hardon-withasuitcase. 

I am asking your opinion on the topic not for your advice.  As for the lesson you do not know what lesson my bloodline learned from the experience and this is off topic from the discussion . 

Ahhh ok the off topic personal rule again....ok.....bored.....would you like to speak my on topic reply that fits your requirements for me to save us all the time and energy? Petra gave a very reasoned reply you didn't like and I suggested that loyality as you spoke about was out of order from your grandmother...both seem to be linked to your speech but seems you don't like.....again.....I will be loyal to one thing, you can speak your truth in the streets as is your right, I won't be listening any longer as they are not discussions or debates. 

walks away as has better things to do - including a very important sewing of a sock with a very obvious hole in it....and wouldn't mind a coffee....

Just because I did not agree with Petra does not mean I did not like it. Nor does it mean I did not accept it. 

People should accept other people opinion whether they agree or not. Just because we do not agree does not mean each opinion is equally valid. 

If a false fallacy : somewhat personal attack with unwanted advice instead of something that adds to the discussion topic is on topic then I need the new guide.  

Just because we do not agree does not mean each opinion is equally valid.

Correction 

Just because we do not agree does not mean that each opinion is equally valid. 

is not* I need more coffee. 

I am a little confused by something, you say "this is not cash for start up funds which is a standard practice. This is paying people to become members of the family"

The thing that confuses me is, what's the difference?

Thank you for asking Eggs_Benedict

the difference

The bribe  is paying people to work for you the payment before the citizen becomes a member of the crew/family, the payment to incentivize their choice.  This is buying members it is buying loyalty. which means the person taking this payment  has a price and have put a limit on their  value.  It also means that the value of loyalty is diminished and questionable will  that person change loyalty if the price is higher somewhere else? 

The start up fund comes after the citizen has become a member of the crew it's purpose is not buying the person's loyalty it is helping the member start-up  in this world as we all know it takes money to make money.  This person has already given thier intention of being loyal regardless of the attention or benefit received, whereas the person who took the incentive or paid the incentive to join is the opposite. 

Joald I'm sorry you had to go through that. I see how her experience can have an impact on your perception in this world of ours. If I was a crew leader during that time and she asked me that, I would most definitely have obliged to do my best to show her why she was valued and would be cared for and not disrespected like that even as a thug. 

And so what if they scoffed, ridiculed or laughed at you? Then that means they're not someone to work for. If they shoot you, that's a reflection of the crew. As a thug, I'm not bargaining the value of my loyalty. I'm negotiating my time and effort spent to work. Money and loyalty are two separate things for me. As a thug, I sign, understand, and follow the rules. Then once my "trial period" is over, if I'm still alive, I pledge my loyalty to the family as Made Man. If you have to be bribed or negotiate money as a Made Man, then that would be really sad as by then you should have established yourself financially as a productive member. 
 

I don't think my loyalty has any monetary value at all. I don't define my loyalty in the amount of money that I earn, make, give, or receive. It's business and that's separate. Just like I don't think your loyalty is defined by the amount of speeches you make in the streets to gain credits that fall from the sky.  

I'm not sure why you want assert that your loyalty is priceless in comparison to mine as I just met you, I think that's something that supposed to be private and a decision made between yourself and your family as you become Made Man. 

If we are to have a reasonable discussion, I think we should define our terms. Loyalty and Trust go hand-in-hand for me. 

We trust others when we feel safe and secure in their presence. In the case of a recruit, for safety and security in a crew. 
Trusting implies a gamble, our confidence maybe justified or not in accordance to others choose to act. As adults, we learn that it's up to us to trust or not. Based on our assessment of trustworthiness we've seen will presume and continue in the other person. Trust in someone means we no longer have to protect ourselves. We believe we won't be harmed or hurt by others at least not deliberately. We trust his or her good intentions although we maybe hurt by things that play out between us. 

Harm inflicted is a choice some people make. As our relationship deepens within our family,  our desire as we trust ourselves is our ability to grieve knowing we can handle cultivation of a more intimate bond between us despite our conflicts with other members.

The foundation of adult trust is not you will never hurt me. Please don't ever hurt me or this crew didn't respond as I expected strikes a note of victimization.  People sometimes break promises, people will shoot you for no reason, or disrespect you. Projections are personal thoughts feelings or beliefs that we ascribe to imagine in someone else, in the context of this discussion, seems to be that idealistic expectations of what unconditional loyalty should give you. 

As my trust and experience have grown within this world of ours, I am prepared with to deal with disappointment if and when that might happen, hopefully never. The more invested I am in my own ideas about reality, the more those experiences will feel less like victimizations rather than the up's and downs of relating. Actually, I believe that the less I conceptualize things that way, the more likely it is that people will want to stay by me because they won't feel burden consciously or unconsciously by my projections, judgements, entitlements, or unrealistic expectations. If that isn't the opposite of bribery and the epitome of loyalty, I don't know what is. 

Petra I have to say it is  refreshing to have someone come to a discussion and share their ideas and thoughts without attacks on the other people  or off topic remarks.   While we disagree on the topic that this  is about many of the points you made here about trust and loyalty  I can agree with. 

 I am not ascertaining my loyalty is  priceless compared to yours. Or of any more value. I am saying it is the same value . My loyalty, your loyalty, and everyone else's is priceless. until you put a monetary value on it, in my opinion. 

That said  I don't understand what  loyalty and trust have to do with taking payment for being a member of a crew?  You are selling them initially. While I understand that everything in our society has become capitalized, how can anyone put a monetary value on loyalty and trust ? These are priceless at least in my opinion.

In my opinion  putting a price on them just makes them worthless. Somethings should not have a monetary value.  Sometimes putting a monetary value on something makes it worth less than what it really should be worth. 

I think it's an interesting discussion although the point is very much moot.

I would argue that loyalty can never be purchased.  You can purchase help, you can purchase goods, but, in my humble godly opinion, loyalty is something intrinsic to ones self and cannot be paid for with money.

Unlike my love of course.

Loyalty can be purchased, and it's not uncommon in this thing of ours. It's not unusual for those heading operations in times of strife to be bought for their assistance or loyalty to a cause. It's all business after all. 

Now loyalty in the sense of mafioso individually? It depends as I can't speak for everyone. Though, I'm sure loyalty can be swayed or bought per say if a particular suited individual or sponsor flashes the right value. It can be the value of the city, cash, or promises of other things that purchase the loyalty of those just arriving on our shores. We're all seeking to buy their loyalty in some shape of some sort.

But shouldn't loyalty be earned instead of purchased? 

That loyalty that is earned instead of bought will be more , it will be sound and solid and trustworthy . Than that which is bought by the highest bidder. 

Loyalty should be sent and not Bought, 

I have always admired my bloodlines stories of previous crew leaders who have made the effort to reach out to them on an individual basis, and most of the time this results in them being more active and increasing the amount of donations sent

Duncan begins speaking while backing down a rookie in the paint.

Loyalty should most certainly be earned and given through relationships, trust, etc. But it is very naïve to think that money cannot buy loyalty as well. Everyone has a number, though we all may not know what that is. Mine is 21. 

You are absolutely right Duncan everyone has their price and money talks, however in my opinion money can only take you so far, real realationships are build from scratch and grow 

Tom shakes his head...

"Everyone has his/her price duncan. The problem with that is that the loyalty you just bought is up for grabs to the highest bidder.
I'd rather not dabble in that pool if I were head of a family. Invest, endure together and bonds are forged beyond generations. Loyalty stretched across the entire bloodline. Of course, this has its downsides as well. But I'd take true loyalty over money any day."