Get Timers Now!
X
 
Mar 29 - 07:26:46
-1
Page:  1 2 [ > - >>> ]
Political Exercise: Authoritarians Left & Right Started by: Cece on Jul 25, '21 21:41

So in my studies of Authoritarians I came across some characteristics that I thought I would share here and perhaps spark some debate.

 

Authoritarian Right Characteristics

  1. They tend to be submissive to authority figures in their society
  2. They tend to become aggressive in the name of those authority figures
  3. They tend to hold conventional views 

A study performed by Bob Altemeyer found that Right-wing authoritarians strongly agree with the following statement:

  • The established authorities generally turn out to be right about things while radicals and protestors are usually just 'loud mouth' showing off their ignorance.

And strongly disagrees with the following statement:

  • Everyone should have their own lifestyle, religious beliefs, and sexual preferences, even if it makes them different from everyone else.

 

Authoritarian Left Characteristics

  1. They believe people in power should be punished and the existing order should be violently overthrown.
  2. They see people with opposing political views as inherently immoral and prefer to be surrounded by people who share their  values.
  3. They think the government or other institutions should forcefully stop people from sharing views they find abhorrent.

A study performed by Thomas Costello found that Left-wing authoritarians strongly agree with the following statements:

  • The rich should be stripped of their belongs and status
  • Deep-down just about all conservatives are racist, sexist and homophobic
  • Classrooms can be safe spaces that protect students from the discussion of harmful ideas.

 

Shared Characteristics

Using standard personality tests Costello found that both left and right-wing authoritarians tend to be:

  1. disagreeable
  2. lacked intellectual humility
  3. were not particular contentious
  4. had a tendency to be mean

 

Discussion

Do you agree with these findings?  Do you think authoritarians exist on both 'sides'?  

Report Post Tip

Well, the four points on a political compass are Authoritarianism (North), Economy (East), Libertarianism (South) and People (West).

For the North/South line, as I understand it, either you support libertarianism (advice to be followed with little scope for punishment), or you support a more rigid enforcement of the rule of law (rules to be followed, for fear of punishment) - i.e. authoritarianism. Obviously there are shades of grey though - it's unusual to be 100% authoritarian or 100% libertarian.

As we all know, the "left" are more concerned with the value of human life, whereas the "right" are more concerned with the value of the economy.

In my experience, the authoritarian right tend to be your white, conservative Christian type voter (your Trump / Bush / Hitler) - which agrees with your study.

The authoritarian left is/was - I believe - Lenin / Stalin / China.

Me, personally, I'm in the bottom left quadrant of a political compass - roughly around the upper center of that quadrant; mildy libertarian, mildly left of center.

Report Post Tips: 1 / Total: $20,000 Tip

I find these conversations to be very stimulating so I hope you will continue to engage me in this conversation!

As we all know, the "left" are more concerned with the value of human life, whereas the "right" are more concerned with the value of the economy.

As someone who falls in the bottom right quadrant of that political compass (towards the center and about a 1/3 step to the right), I find this verbiage choice interesting.  It would seem based on this verbiage I would place economic values above the value of a human life.  This couldn’t be further from the truth.  I place the upmost value on all human life.  Might a better verbiage choice be to say the left tends to elevate empathy with policy versus the right elevating policy devoid of empathy?

To me that removes the either intended or un-intented negative overtures yet still accurately describe the nature of the two.  Would you agree?

In my experience, the authoritarian right tend to be your white, conservative Christian type voter (your Trump / Bush / Hitler) - which agrees with your study.

The authoritarian left is/was - I believe - Lenin / Stalin / China.

Once again I find myself fascinated with the choice to lump a rather large segmate of the population (White, conversation Christian) into a single group as if there are no gradients between them.  For example, I am a white, conservative Christian voter who did not vote for Trump in either election and does not see either Bush Presidents to be particularly conservative in native.  I also know white, conservative Christian voters who felt in both the last two elections the chooses were authoritarian on both sides.  Should the gradients be ignored and everyone is just thrown together into one group?  If so then why do you choose not to do the same with the left? 
 

For example if I carried this to the other side I might say: “In my experience, the authoritarian left tends to be your white, woke democratic socialists type voters (your Mao/Lenin/Stalin).  
 

Do you have thoughts on this?

Report Post Tips: 1 / Total: $20,000 Tip
Please forgive the grammar errors. I am on a phone.
Report Post Tip

I find these conversations to be very stimulating so I hope you will continue to engage me in this conversation!

Of course! I always enjoy a good political conversation, and whilst I haven't studied politics or history, I do find it interesting.

Might a better verbiage choice be to say the left tends to elevate empathy with policy versus the right elevating policy devoid of empathy?

To me that removes the either intended or un-intented negative overtures yet still accurately describe the nature of the two.  Would you agree?

Oh yeah, I wasn't intending to sound like I think either "side" prioritises one aspect to the exclusion of the other. There is just a higher priority placed on either economy or society, depending on which side of the divide you're on. I don't think all right wing voters are heartless, however, so yeah I'm happy to agree that's a pretty accurate reflection of what I was trying to say.

For example if I carried this to the other side I might say: “In my experience, the authoritarian left tends to be your white, woke democratic socialists type voters (your Mao/Lenin/Stalin).  
 

Do you have thoughts on this?

Again, I'm speaking in broad strokes - and from my experience - but I'd also include "smelly hippy" into your description of the whole left :P

For real though, I don't think it's wrong to say the majority of Trump supporters are/were white conservative Christians - not all, just the majority. I'm not passing judgement about that either; more making an observation, and whilst I don't particularly like the word "woke", I'd say your description is pretty accurate, but as I said, I'm not particularly knowledgeable about Chinese/Russian politics. That's the reason I said "I believe" Lenin/Stalin/China were the authoritarian left - I've not had any real experience with that style of governance.

Report Post Tips: 1 / Total: $20,000 Tip

I am pretty much centre left/social libertarian on the political compass. 

Although i see maybe half people as fitting the sterotypical view of eash category from some of the views shared on political forums I am involved in.

I do think especially now, teh grey area is shifting some with agre, some with new millenials especially UK, as i see more young people about protest but still won't won't vote.   They are poltically unaware but have their causes attached to them.

In Uk we see the poltiical manipulation bypassing some views, e.g running BAME candidates in BAME dominant areas as a vote winner, or women to win a womans vote.   At this point when the best candidate is ignored, it undermimes politics in general for this supposed equality.

Report Post Tip

Tend to agree that the UK uses political manipulation to stay in power. That's why UK General Elections and English/Senedd local elections are voted in by a FPTP system, whereas the other devolved nations are forced to use PR voting system like the D'Hondt method (an AMS system used in Scotland) - allowing Conservative representatives to stand as list (regional) candidates and get themselves elected without being duly elected, like the constituency candidates are.

Report Post Tip

When I was younger, people would more often think I was on the left, nowadays I'm usually called out as a fascist. After thinking about it for a while, I came to the conclusion that it's not really me who has "changed sides" but rather society in general, or to be more accurate, the loudest/trendiest opinions. It seems my personal morals better fit the terms "progressive" and "anti-establishment" when I was younger when people with non mainstream opinions were more likely to be labeled "anarchists", while now they are more likely to be characterized as "conservative" and "pro status quo" when people with non mainstream opinions are more like to be labeled "fascists". 

While I have indeed matured in some of my more naive opinions, the core principles behind them have not really changed. Thus, I find myself being considered a commie/hippy by traditional right wingers and a fascist by traditional left wingers. A (hopefully) not very controversial example of this situation is probably my thoughts on privacy. When I was younger, voicing a strong pro-privacy opinion (e.g. why does the bank have to know what I bought, where I bought it, when I bought it and how much it costs) would be viewed as an attempt to avoid taxation and hide my sketchy hippy activity (pot and molotov cocktails) whereas nowadays it would be viewed as an attempt to avoid "social responsibility" and hide my politically incorrect "fascist" activity (supporting the patriarchy). Chances are most of you probably have a strong opinion one way or another, just know that your views are anaracho-hippy-commie and racist-sexist-fascist at the same time, depending on who you're disagreeing with (and when). 

Report Post Tip

It seems my personal morals better fit the terms "progressive" and "anti-establishment" when I was younger when people with non mainstream opinions were more likely to be labeled "anarchists", while now they are more likely to be characterized as "conservative" and "pro status quo" when people with non mainstream opinions are more like to be labeled "fascists".

Anti-establishment is currently referred to as "populism", and it's very trendy just now... although, strangely, it's mostly utilised by conservative governments - which are existentially pro-business - and fronted by old, rich, white men, who are predominantly upper class. Total oxymoron imo.

I know that's not the point you were making, just made me think. Heh.

Report Post Tip

It should be remembered that a chart like the one offered here can at best offer only an approximation of a large group of people's opinions and feelings. It is worth noting that it has almost no use in predicting what any one individual will feel on any given topic. A lot of conservatives who complain about the social safety net were first in line for government help when God awful hurricanes hit the south. And by the same token many liberals who want to do away with the police are quick to call for their help if they are directly threatened.

 

People, society and governments are too complex to be explained in any meaningful way in such simple language. Educators do use tools like this to teach basic concepts in higher level courses but it's just a tool to provide the first steps in understanding.

Report Post Tip

I apologize for dropping out like that.  Work has been getting the better part of me, but hopefully that will be changing here shortly.

 

and whilst I don't particularly like the word "woke", I'd say your description is pretty accurate

My use of the word "woke" was an attempt to substitute one religious ideology with another.  In this case my reference is in regards to "woke" individuals who are forming a post-Protestant neopaganism.  They preach confession of sin, recitation of liturgy, profound iconoclastic, and duty to bring society into conformity; while following charismatic authors who produce "prophetic" literature.  I am referring to individuals who believe it a moral good to engage in Puritanical hunts for the unrightrous using weapons of social shame (doxxing) and ostracism (Cancel culture).

I don't believe many who consider themselves "woke" fit into this category, but I do believe all the ones that do are firmly in that authoritarian vein.  They have a habit of being highly judgmental and -- while they most often utilize mob forces -- they are willing to appeal to administration and use the law to compel behavior which they think is just and righteous.

Anti-establishment is currently referred to as "populism",

I am curious Bosco, would you say that the Defund the Police crowd (the ones that actually want to do away with the police entirely) would be classified as Anti-establishment?

 People, society and governments are too complex to be explained in any meaningful way in such simple language. Educators do use tools like this to teach basic concepts in higher level courses but it's just a tool to provide the first steps in understanding.

I couldn't agree more, Joseph_Balzano.  It does give us a frame of reference when discussing these topics, however. 

Report Post Tip

I am referring to individuals who believe it a moral good to engage in Puritanical hunts for the unrightrous using weapons of social shame (doxxing) and ostracism (Cancel culture).

Fair. I was more meaning I don't like the generalised, entire 'left' definition of "woke" that some commentators use, because it's a weak, lazy denigration. Yours is a more exhaustive list of traits than simple left/right political beliefs. Although, on a slight tangent, you've made me think - the left is pretty widely known as "woke"... does the "right" have a derisive moniker? Cos I can't think of one - even for the authoritarian right. The closest I can think of is "gammon", but I think that's quite specific to Brexit, as far as I know.

I am curious Bosco, would you say that the Defund the Police crowd (the ones that actually want to do away with the police entirely) would be classified as Anti-establishment?

Well, I'm a democratic socialist so, by definition, I'm not a proponent of the Defund the Police sentiment. Would I call it anti-establishment? No, I don't think I would - I'd probably consider it anarchism. Nowadays, I'd consider anti-big-business to be anti-establishment, which is why I mentioned populism. Not quite as far as anti-capitalism, but definitely anti things like price-gounging in pharma or bankers pushing subprime loans.

Report Post Tip

does the "right" have a derisive moniker? 

This is just personal opinion here, but I feel there is a push here in the US to label anyone right-of-center as "conservative" AND make the term into a derisive moniker at the same time -- especially in the media. 

Would I call it anti-establishment? No, I don't think I would - I'd probably consider it anarchism. Nowadays, I'd consider anti-big-business to be anti-establishment, which is why I mentioned populism. Not quite as far as anti-capitalism, but definitely anti things like price-gounging in pharma or bankers pushing subprime loans.

I find this interesting!  I never would have considered big business as an "establishment".  When I think of establishment I think of government and there does seem to be a big push here in the states to tear down government systems (i.e. like the police).

Here is a thought I just had though... are we now in a time where big government AND big business are married together and form a new form of "establishment"?  I think about here in the US how after 2008, legislation was passed to prevent any future "bail-outs", but paved the way for "bail-ins".  It is a shell game.  Bail-outs were unpopular for obvious reasons and many politicians feared a repeat so they set it up to cover big business by saying we are going to allow you to take your unsecure debit (i.e. my money in my checking account at the bank) and turn it into an asset.  It allows the politicians to spend the same amount, but instead of the money going directly to big business it would pass it along indirective via the FDIC.

Report Post Tip

This is just personal opinion here, but I feel there is a push here in the US to label anyone right-of-center as "conservative" AND make the term into a derisive moniker at the same time -- especially in the media. 

See, I struggle to see “conservative” as derisive, maybe because it’s the name of the party here. I’m just used to it, I guess. People like Tucker Carlson don’t really help the conservative image though, and do attract a fair amount of ridicule for some of their views, so I understand what you mean.

I find this interesting!  I never would have considered big business as an "establishment". 

Well, it may not be the same in America, but here, politics has always been pretty plutocratic. Our elected politicians are Eton or Cambridge educated, mostly. The House of Lords is filled with unelected peers with lifetime seats and vested business interests. During COVID, 98.9% of Government contracts were awarded without a competitive tender process. Over £1B (one billion) of Government contracts were given to “friends and donors of the Conservative party”. A PPE contract was handed out to a pub owner because he was the relative of a government official. Things like that colour my view of the style of governance we have here, so whilst it may not be strictly official, it’s hard to dispute :P

Report Post Tip

People like Tucker Carlson don’t really help the conservative image though

See this is what I mean.  I would not call Tucker Carlson a conservative.  He is squarely a populist.

Report Post Tip

I would not call Tucker Carlson a conservative.  He is squarely a populist.

Just to be clear - when I say “conservative”, I simply mean right wing - anywhere on the spectrum. If I was to refer to anywhere on the left wing, I’d use the term “liberal”. I appreciate Tucker’s political ideology is more complex than a simple binary choice, and I don’t disagree he’s a populist, but insofar as a liberal/conservative choice, I’d say he’s certainly the latter.

Report Post Tip
I do agree with you that authoritarians are on both sides. In my experience you see it on the left side a little more than the right. That is just today’s day in age in my opinion because of all the emotionally sensitive situations such as race, sexuality, and pro choice. In order to maintain a steady functioning government both parties need to use their views as checks and balances for the other. Ex vaccines should not be mandated because someone who already has had the shot is scared. Or vise versa those on the right shouldn’t be pushing for no abortion allowed. Instead they should come up with a solution that best fits the people. It’s like we have to pick from really far right or really far left. WHERE THE FUCK IS THE MIDDLE GREY AREA THAT MAKES EVERYTHING RIN SMOOTHLY!
Report Post Tip

The correct use of the term "conservative" is a movement which does not seek to radically change anything too much, too soon.  So for example, the term "radical conservative" is something of an oxymoron.

Joe Biden, like Bill Clinton, is a fairly conservative politician.  With Trump, as with Boris Johnson, it is hard to get a truly accurate read on the true nature of their political ideologies (such as they exist).  Boris Johnson has announced measures that make his the highest taxing UK government in peacetime.  That is not a traditionally conservative position.  But, the tax rises do not penalise the super-wealthy as considerably as they do more average working people.  And alongside him were considerable cuts to welfare payments, which will damage the poorest in society - something conservatives do perhaps more often than those on the left.

The old economic vs people, left/right political divides of old have morphed into an intensely futile so-called culture-war, which deflects actual debate and discussion and encourages polarisation around usually fictitious disputes or greatly exaggerated threats. 

But behind most dearly held political stances, are of course the personalities.  

Perhaps, if there is time, I will use my professional training as a work-coach and psychotherapist to discuss that.

Report Post Tip
I do find it strange that people buy into the persona that Biden is a conservative or moderate when his administration is great easily the most progressive the US has ever seen. Though I just read an article today that stated 91% of liberals view Biden and their party as mainstream. I think echo chambers can have this affect. It is all you hear so you assume that is how everyone else views the matter.
Report Post Tip
Gina - what policies are Biden's administration enacting that could be described as radical?

His foreign policy is similar to previous administrations. His domestic policy is likewise indistinguishable from others.
Report Post Tip

This Forum Is For Topics Other Than The Game (AKA Outside)
Replying to: Political Exercise: Authoritarians Left & Right
Compose Body:

@Mention Notifications: On More info
How much do you want to tip for this post?

Minimum $20,000

(NaN)
G2
G1
L
H
D
C
Private Conversations
0 PLAYERS IN CHANNEL