Going back into the ether, it used to be a requirement for candidates to "make themselves known" before they would be considered for auth, typically by having an active street presence. Over the years, particularly as life expectancy and the importance of being able to build a good gun increased, this has slowly ebbed away. 

I was wondering how people feel about this. Personally, I feel it adds a lot to the experience of playing the game when those at the top of it have a street presence and actively participate in the forums. It gives their character some meaning, a personality and can create some separation between the individual controlling it. Sometimes, anyway. However, I think that I'm in the minority with this view and most people don't really care one way or the other.

So, what do you think? Should CLs or upper structure need to have a presence in the forums or is that outdated thinking? 

Liking the question. You are correct it was a must do thing for sure, we have so many crew leaders we know nothing about. Certainly I recall the ones that went a long way of old were well know and their approach and personality clearly shown on the streets and people got to know who to mess with if you like and who not to - Dr Boom as a good example here to name but one. I feel it adds a lot to the game to have leaders speak. I don't know that it should be a requirement as each can choose how they operate themselves. It certainly was an expectation with quiet of missing ones seen as weaker in the wider community. Times change though. I would love to hear more from leaders, usually our words is where our sword will eventually fall so make your presence known because silence sadly speaks volumes. I don't know many amazing leaders OOC that have permenant larengitus. Except maybe our current UK prime minister and it open for debate on if that falls into the cat of amazing leaders anyway! Not sure I have answered except to say I think there should be a requirement yes broadly as it is very quiet from some and if not have an active crew that 'speaks' so there is a crew prescence. Certainly the late greats had no fear of talking in the streets.

Are you talking a presence in the forums or just the streets? 

The Streets themselves have lost their appeal to a lot of people for various reasons.  The ridiculousness of the streets for one, people posting off topic in storylines and these off topic  posts remaining simply because they are good writing regardless if they ruin the story or not, some people people don't or can't put their thoughts into writing.  Just to name a couple reasons.

When you make a place unpleasant for people they tend to not go there any more.  Thank the Kuku-line & kuku friends /supporters for this.

 That said, I think to become Made you need some form of presence in the Forums, not necessarily with the Streets.  This is to show you are community oriented. When I had my crew  I added a couple  of requirements  of my own for people to achieve each rank and a forum presence was one of them. Just the forums not specifically the streets, this included the forums in our HQ.

I complete agree AliceLiddell. The streets are now well full of trash mostly (no insult to those genuinely talking there you know who what I mean) but there have been many rounds of the streets being exceptionally robust places to dare to talk. Like you in previous lives I always encouraged it somehow in some forums and for some shy this might be for a while just BA practice with a run of a story or a speech or an opinion with some guidance and try again. For leaders though words are your first line of defence / weapon too and they get the right to choose to keep that concealed or display it. History shows strong leaders usually can hold there own in the streets and also know when to walk away and back the HQ. It is a fine balance. I don't want to be the ihinning 'of old' type but the streets are so different just now in my opinion for the wrong reasons. We should all encourage the shy or young for sure in whatever way that CL sees fit but to encourage it and the leaders need to be known have an opinion and not perm hide, which is of course their choice to do in either context. For some the game is a 'talking' one for others a click click one, for others just a I will hang out with mates for a bit - each to their own. Leaders I liked it of old the good old scraps on the streets that certainly let you know where the boldness and ability was. But agree different streets or forums for sure. 

The ridiculousness of the streets for one, people posting off topic in storylines and these off topic  posts remaining simply because they are good writing regardless if they ruin the story or not, 

Wow you are just never gonna let this go eh? 

Anyway, I'd love to have more active forums, but I also know that being forced to write is the best way to make people not want to do it even more. Some people just don't like writing, or English isn't their first language.  That said, I would absolutely love for CLs to be more active in the streets, but I also don't care enough to do anything about it because much like participating in the streets, it seems like a lot more effort than I'm willing to put in for very little reward. 

Whilst this is a well intended proposal, I have to say - I'm not a fan of mandated roleplaying, even for a roleplay site.

As others have alluded to, and from my own pervious personal experience, the disgrunted peanut gallery generally use it as a platform to debase, judge, ridicule and/or cause friction between crews/cities. I've seen a few enforced speeches criticised more harshly than what would be considered debate or even reasonable constructive criticism, which encourages the behaviour and eventually has a knock on effect for people keen to avoid abuse - particularly amongst those fresh off the boat.

Furthermore, verbosity is a gift not many are blessed with, so we would - most likely - just end up diluting the quality of the speeches on the streets were this enforced.

Lastly, irc hosts a lot of the discussion these days with less reputational risk which is part of the reason for the dearth of genuinely entertaining debate on the streets in my opinion.

TL:DR - Street speaking is an artform, and artistry is a labour of love. I believe it should remain a personal choice and not a requirement of leadership.

Hey Rorscarch - I agree with most of that you say there but there is a dichotomy to your point about IRC if I may. This is mainly a RP game, and I also agree people should not be forced to be made to have that as their defining factor too. Some don't like talking, some need to gain confidence and some need private practice and so on. To say kind of and I might not be wording this in the way you intended - take the old streets stuff to a  seperate link granted on the site but slightly detached from game to keep things safer kind of works against the point of the game? IRC has always been important but if that now takes a position above the streets in game I might argue it actually devalues the game for the purposes intended. Ironically we are having a decent debate without any issue which is very refreshing. Reputational risk is a part of the mafia to remove it to a 'safer' place seems at odds. Private meeting rooms will always be held but open debate and not a library in the streets would be nicer too or a combo of both in balance? 

Maxine totally on board with your points, CL's hiding in offices ain't great - in one way you MIGHT have earn't the position so fuck the world and what they think whether I speak or not and in another erm who the hell are you as you say / do nothing...Even if the CL isn't 'speaking at least mentor the crew so there is an active presence but radio silence from a leader on anything whether related to them directly or in general is odd. If you need the HQ office door closed and a quiet cuppa whilst reading the papers....ain't that impressive, keep clicking people...I like that you talk very directly as it should be in my humble opinion.

I hear ya Victorious-Secret and notwithstanding my views on enforced speech, I’m a big fan of a proper debate on the streets. I think it’s a great way of showing the masses what you’re all about, and I wouldn’t shy away from a debate these days. As you rightly pointed out; we’re currently engaged in a healthy respectful debate and I’m happy to do so. There was a time when I was one of the ones who you touched upon that lacked confidence to properly express myself, but these days I’m far more relaxed and therefore willing to engage. If I had been forced onto the streets prior to my first leadership role, however, I would - most likely - not have accepted the role (which may or may not have been a good thing; perhaps another debate for another day :P)

As far as irc goes, I think there’s a lot more activity, and therefore a lot more casual debate on there, but I do still believe the forums are where the *big* debates take place, and occasionally a discussion finds its way to our streets from irc avenue, which is a good thing. Just depends what you’re looking for, I guess… a quick, short, sharp ‘hit it and quit it’ kind of discussion is best held on irc, but a protracted debate of substance is almost certainly better hosted on the streets imo. With phones being the primary choice for activity these days, I can appreciate why a lot of discussions which would ordinarily have occurred on the streets now happen on #main.

The “safety” aspect I was hinting at is more because once the discussion is buried, you don’t have to worry about it being regurgitated by someone in 5 years time - at least not to the same extent. Think the probably still infamous response to Toaly about how it’s smart to deplete someone’s war chest to make them “just give up their fight and fuck off”. Took me seconds to find the full original posting and subsequent responses, but if it had been said on irc, it’d have to have been BA’d or it would have evaporated into the ether. Some folk thrive with that sort of level of safety.

Oh I'm sure if its been said in IRC its in several logs to be viewed again. 

Oh yeah, no doubt irc conversations are held by some folk somewhere, but it’s definitely not as accessible as the streets.

I am not sure why we even bother. What people think, doesn't change what leaders do. Most get authed by their buddies, stay in power because buddies. Doesn't matter if they talk in the streets or not. Whether you ever see them around or not. They are going to do what they want. So enjoy the ride?

Rorschach you are the perfect example then! YOu speak so well expect a decent debate handled with professionalism and bring it to the streets! I Look forward to more lively respectful discussions with you. ON this though it seems we more or less agree which in mafia terms is not a bad place to be. 

My only gripe is if the 'life' of this game is outside the game it distracts a but I know it is needed and required but much more in my view needs to be of those 'old days' of the masses of the collective on here gets at least some of the details....it makes it messy some might say and quiet off the street chats are better but it is what engages a community. I can recall hearing street speeches with things said true or false and been captivated as a young one and it is what gave me that nudege all that time ago to start trying to sat things. 

IRC has it's place for sure I am not callint that up as something negative but it must be connected to wider communication and people being bold enough to speak, or to try and not get it quite right and not be shouted down for that or to practce and for crew leaders to step up and talk or educate their crew then support when they take that first nervous step. I don' think we are too far removed from the same page and I have enjoyed the back and forth. 

LOL happy to continue if you disagree yoo. Healthy debate we NEED you!!!! 

LOL on phone so good luck all working out all the typo's! Ad again for young ones that would be mortifying. Need support and practice and to know no one really gives a fuck we understand what you sais - in my case more or less I hope! 

"When you make a place unpleasant for people they tend to not go there any more; Thank the Kuku-line & kuku friends /supporters for this."

AliceLiddell - if this is a dig at the trope that the Kuku lineage somehow impacted RP-ers, I'd take a look at how much RP there is in the business district etc.  If it's something else, I suggest you have a look at the ire and bile directed towards the Kuku lineage (to give a small sample, the "C-bomb" has been dropped, crude "mother" jibes (yes, someone went there), and described as "vermin" - if you want to pass comment on how the Streets can be unpleasant, don't single out a single lineage (and/or their supporters), have some perspective.  Unless, of course, you think that rules shouldn't apply across the board.

Now, if I was of the Kuku lineage, I'd point out that his lineage over the past number of months have not complained once about all that has been said towards him and his, has exceptionally rarely used anything approaching foul language, and where an accusation of "unpleasant"ness can be made, I think pretty much falls squarely within the realms of that which makes this thing of ours tick: competition, loyalty, and so on.

As it happens, I'd never call someone a c*nt, or vermin, or say that their mother is involved in sex-work pretty much because nobody makes me that angry, and more importantly, because when a person goes low like that, it says far more about said person that the target of said low commentary.

Some of us old-timers will remember when the Streets were violently policed and ranking people died for challenging the regime and CLs of the day.  That doesn't happen now-a-days, but arguably, it doesn't happen because not much challenge is taking place.

Going back to CuthbertTheAvenger's point, I'd love to see CLs taking to the Streets, to discuss their actions, wars, ideas, decrees and so on.  I'd like a CLs to argue, debate, even fight.

I think the presence clause could, and should, be part of a bigger reform: CL meetings, Godfather decrees and so on.

Some things should be sacrosanct and clearly stated as such.

I would welcome the CLs of this thing getting together to discuss funeral disrespect, mugging etc.

If not, one is entitled to ask: why not? 

The ridiculousness of the streets for one, people posting off topic in storylines and these off topic  posts remaining simply because they are good writing regardless if they ruin the story or not, 

Wow you are just never gonna let this go eh? 

 So, I should stop saying the truth of the matter.   I have always spoken on what I have seen and or experienced either directly or indirectly by other people telling me  they have experienced the same thing. 

It is a personal problem when it happens only to you.

It is a societal issue when it happens to more than only you. 

The things I keep talking about affect or affected not just myself, but others also.

So, no I won't stop talking about these matters, until they are not societal issues.